Saving Connor and Cordy?

[Cordy_Chase]

I finished season 4 of Angel last night and am confused by what happened in the end with Connor. Angel wanted to give him a better life, which he took to mean a life without him. Thus he gave him to another, average family.

Aside from not seeing with what magic he did this, I also did not understand his logic other than his brooding and putting more blame on himself than he deserves.

Connor had been ultimately ruined by his upbringing with Holtz, so why not just rewrite the past season and a half or so where Wesley kidnapped him as a baby thus putting him in the hands of Holtz? Wouldn't this change Connor's perspective of Angel and thus their relationship having not been influenced by Holtz? Or he could have still given him up after he stopped the kidnapping.

In addition this would restart the timeline with Connor at his rightful age of a year old, thus Jasmine could never happen and thus Cordy is saved.
If Angel wasn't such a loving dad, it would also have worked to rewind back further and stop Connor's conception.

This actually saves a lot of lives at one time. In addition to Connor and Cordy stopping Jasmine's creation would save the thousands of lives she took.

It may not have had the happiest of endings for Angel, he and Cordy still might not have happened because Cordy might still have accepted the gig as a higher being (since I can't decide if without the prospect of Jasmine would Skip have still offered her the gig) but she'd be safe and even if it means removing her from his picture that is what is most important to Angel.

Actually even with Angel's way how was Cordy's fate still not reversed? What part Connor's life was rewritten?

 

[janas]

Actually even with Angel's way how was Cordy's fate still not reversed? What part Connor's life was rewritten?

Everything. Has been rewritten whole life Connor's, including, obviously, also his past ..in the season five you will have some answers, but I don't want to ruin everything with spoilers. Regarding Cordelia, I don't know what to say. Maybe they weren't assured of getting back Charisma on the show for another season.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

Everything. Has been rewritten whole life Connor's, including, obviously, also his past ..in the season five you will have some answers, but I don't want to ruin everything with spoilers. Regarding Cordelia, I don't know what to say. Maybe they weren't assured of getting back Charisma on the show for another season.

Alright, that is what I thought that Connor had been completely rewritten from birth. My main concern was how this did not change Cordy's fate since it was linked to him and agreed my only thought was that they had to knock the sense out of that because Charisma was unable to continue. That's such a bummer.

 

[janas]

Alright, that is what I thought that Connor had been completely rewritten from birth. My main concern was how this did not change Cordy's fate since it was linked to him and agreed my only thought was that they had to knock the sense out of that because Charisma was unable to continue. That's such a bummer.

Many the incongruity's of the fourth season, derive just from pregnancy of Charisma. She had to leave the show for a while, so the choice of the writers, has certainly had to deal with this.
But I do not think that the fate of Connor and Cordelia are linked to each other. Or if are linked, the same is true for Wesley, Lorne, Fred and Gunn .. and more generally, for all those who knew Connor. Over and above that, I do not see any particular destiny that connects Cordy to Connor. Everything said Jasmine was a lie.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

Many the incongruity's of the fourth season, derive just from pregnancy of Charisma. She had to leave the show for a while, so the choice of the writers, has certainly had to deal with this.
But I do not think that the fate of Connor and Cordelia are linked to each other. Or if are linked, the same is true for Wesley, Lorne, Fred and Gunn .. and more generally, for all those who knew Connor. Over and above that, I do not see any particular destiny that connects Cordy to Connor. Everything said Jasmine was a lie.

What I meant in that Cordy being in that Coma is linked to Connor because she and Conner conceived Jasmine. If Connor had not been born to Angel than Jasmine in theory never happened and thus when he was rewritten Cordy should have come out of that coma having never been in it in the first place.

Charisma was pregnant in real life? How sweet!

 

[janas]

Beh, Connor è stato vittima di Jasmine quanto Cordelia. Anzi .. Io dico che Connor er

What I meant in that Cordy being in that Coma is linked to Connor because she and Conner conceived Jasmine. If Connor had not been born to Angel than Jasmine in theory never happened and thus when he was rewritten Cordy should have come out of that coma having never been in it in the first place.

So you're saying that Connor is responsible for the birth of Jasmine, only to be born by Angel? I really hope not. I copy paste of what I have written elsewhere, because I think that Connor has no responsibility for the birth of Jasmine. He had sex with Cordy, because "Cordy" wanted it to happen. Connor was completely unaware of what would happen after.

Connor was a victim of Jasmine as much as Cordelia. Indeed.. I say that Connor was much more than Cordy, because Cordy, "choosing" to become a higher being, has triggered a series of events that led to the birth of Jasmine. Cordelia, in part, is responsible for what has happened to Angel and Connor.

Charisma was pregnant in real life? How sweet!

Yeah 🙂

 

[Cordy_Chase]

It had been stated countless times that Jasmine is the blood child of Cordelia and Connor.

*First upon her arrival Jasmine explained that she had chosen Connor to father her before he was even born and that she had created the miracle of his birth to ensure that. The entire relationship between him and "Cordelia" had been set up to ensure her conception. Remember when she told Angel:
"I love you Angel and I always will but I can't be with you right now."
That made me mad but it actually makes so much more sense after Jasmine is brought to light.

*Fred had discovered that when Jasmine's blood met a another person's that person can see Jasmine's true form thus lifting from her spell (I need to rewatch 'Shiny Happy People' because I missed how John Stoler had been exposed). Angel then lifted the remaining members of Angel Investigations successfully using Cordelia's blood having theorized that by being mother and daughter Jasmine shared her blood.

*Connor is referred to as Jasmine's father first by a reporter, and then by the two Jasmine drones who had moved Cordelia on the day of Jasmine's world debut.

*Right before having Cordelia moved, Jasmine told Connor to leave the room because she wanted to be alone with her mother.

Above all the blood thing proves my point, Jasmine was a lie yes but her conception by Connor and Cordelia still actually happened.
I never said Connor was guilty of anything, as annoying as I found him he was of course a victim of Jasmine (though considering that Jasmine had cast Cordy aside within her own body then used and abused it, I would say they were equally victimized), of a love with Cordelia that he never had any idea was not what it had seemed(though had he actually listened to Team Angel rather than just grabbed her and ran from the Lorne set up he would have learned of it). It doesn't change the fact he was involved in Jasmine's conception, which was exactly what she had set up between him and Cordelia.

 

[Lyri]

The fact of the matter is, Connor was a very, VERY small part of Jasmine's plot to give birth to herself. You take him out of the equation, Jasmine would have found someone else to be her 'father'. She wrote the damn prophecy herself, after all, it wouldn't be hard for her to come up with something else, some other way to impregnate Cordelia. An immaculate conception, perhaps.

Connor might have bought into Jasmine's ramblings AFTER she was born, but he had no part in actually getting her into this world. The only thing you can blame him of his thinking he was having sex with the woman his father was in love with. That might have been spiteful and a stupid thing to do, but he didn't know what would result from that sex.

I can't actually continue with anything else here, because you haven't seen S5 yet. But there ARE answers given, they just might not be the ones you want.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

So that whole Jasmine, Rocky thing that all seemed a bit to clean-cut for me.
Connor blamed himself for Rocky, well here's a thought. Where Connor was born is where Darla Died.
Did you believe all of what Jasmine said, or Rocky or Skip?
Did Cordelia give birth to a normal baby, or did Jasmine grow very quickly?
To my mind Cordy's body was used as a vessel, which was because Charisma was pregnant.
Jasmine and Rocky were linked, but by what? Given that the series was becoming a bit more..... evil the reasonings given seemed to simple, straightforward. And with Skip saying that Cordy was in it.
My thoughts were that the First played a part in Angel the series. What if Jasmine and Rocky were just the harbringer, that (to me) would bring in Darla concept with the First being designer of the game.
Given that WR&H kept saying that Angel had a part to play in the end, I thought that his part had a name and that Angel's part was his involvement with Darla.
With evil being aware that humans often go with the wrong reason for events happening (the easy most obvious reason they could think of) it would be easy to get the humans to believe the wrong thing.
So what part did Connor or Cordy have in the whole Jasmine thing, nothing they were just scapegoats. People were suspicious of them anyway so a small element of the evil prompting people, the people blamed Connor and Cordy until they even believed they were partly to blame.
So the evil (First) could sit back (theoretically) and plan the next surprise.

 

[Xin Rong]

The fact of the matter is, Connor was a very, VERY small part of Jasmine's plot to give birth to herself. You take him out of the equation, Jasmine would have found someone else to be her 'father'. She wrote the damn prophecy herself, after all, it wouldn't be hard for her to come up with something else, some other way to impregnate Cordelia. An immaculate conception, perhaps.

Connor might have bought into Jasmine's ramblings AFTER she was born, but he had no part in actually getting her into this world. The only thing you can blame him of his thinking he was having sex with the woman his father was in love with. That might have been spiteful and a stupid thing to do, but he didn't know what would result from that sex.

I can't actually continue with anything else here, because you haven't seen S5 yet. But there ARE answers given, they just might not be the ones you want.

Are we completely forgetting the 'impossible birth, to make one possible thing'?

That, to me, means that connor was needed for jasmine's conception, otherwise any half demon could have been used?

 

[janas]

The birth of Jasmine through Connor was a retocon of Season Three. Jasmine wasn't foreseen in the original script, she has become necessary because of the pregnancy of Charisma, the whole plot "pregnancy Cordy" revolves around this. Probably would not have been necessary to involve Connor in the sex scene with Cordy, and in any case I would have preferred that he was not involved in this. Jasmine could be born from Cordy and anyone else, such as Groo. Cordy and Groo had sex until the day in which Cordy is "ascent" as a higher being, on his return (the fourth season) could already be pregnant ..instead they chose Connor, and have involved him in a soap operas in bad taste ..to use a euphemism!

 

[Lyri]

Cordy and Groo had sex until the day in which Cordy is "ascent" as a higher being, on his return (the fourth season) could already be pregnant ..instead they chose Connor, and have involved him in a soap operas in bad taste ..to use a euphemism!

Pretty much this is what I meant.

Jasmine wasn't taking advantage of a situation that was already in place - she put all those pieces in place herself in order to get herself 'reborn' or whatever. There could have been any number of ways to get her into this world, she just decided that bringing back Darla and getting her pregnant with Connor was the way she wanted to go. She's a Power that Was with unlimited power and magic at her disposal. If Connor had never happened, she would have just come up with some other way to get herself into this world.

That's what I meant when I said Connor wasn't really necessary. Jasmine just would have come up with something else.

 

[Xin Rong]

Pretty much this is what I meant.

Jasmine wasn't taking advantage of a situation that was already in place - she put all those pieces in place herself in order to get herself 'reborn' or whatever. There could have been any number of ways to get her into this world, she just decided that bringing back Darla and getting her pregnant with Connor was the way she wanted to go. She's a Power that Was with unlimited power and magic at her disposal. If Connor had never happened, she would have just come up with some other way to get herself into this world.

That's what I meant when I said Connor wasn't really necessary. Jasmine just would have come up with something else.

Then why didn't she? It seems to me that it would have been a lot easier to have Cordy return but have no connection with the fang gang... send her to Alaska and mate with some snow demon and then wait for the pregnancy to occur. Thus requiring there to be no need for the beast, ring of fire, blocking out the sun, any confrontation with the fang gang etc

 

[janas]

Then why didn't she? It seems to me that it would have been a lot easier to have Cordy return but have no connection with the fang gang... send her to Alaska and mate with some snow demon and then wait for the pregnancy to occur. Thus requiring there to be no need for the beast, ring of fire, blocking out the sun, any confrontation with the fang gang etc

Because.. here we are talking about Joss, right? He always wants to get the most pain from the characters, and for Angel was a drama to have the son against, in league with her ​​best friend/lover. But I think Joss here exaggerated. Incest, patricide, is a combination that creates an explosive mixture. All you got is the visceral hatred of almost all the fans for Connor ..that at bottom it's just a victim.

 

[Xin Rong]

Because.. here we are talking about Joss, right? He always wants to get the most pain from the characters, and for Angel was a drama to have the son against, in league with her ​​best friend/lover. But I think Joss here exaggerated. Incest, patricide, is a combination that creates an explosive mixture. All you got is the visceral hatred of almost all the fans for Connor ..that at bottom it's just a victim.

Ok, but in terms in what the show actually tells us as fact, connor was needed, external factors are interesting to discuss, i.e. Joss's motivation etc, but bottom line: we are told in the show that Connor was needed for Jasmine's conception, so that's the truth... if we're going to be realistic then Cordy would not have returned to LA... the need for Connor is a good excuse for this and makes sense to me, although I get where your coming from.

 

[janas]

Ok, but in terms in what the show actually tells us as fact, connor was needed, external factors are interesting to discuss, i.e. Joss's motivation etc, but bottom line: we are told in the show that Connor was needed for Jasmine's conception, so that's the truth... if we're going to be realistic then Cordy would not have returned to LA... the need for Connor is a good excuse for this and makes sense to me, although I get where your coming from.

Yes, of course ..Jasmine was in need of a unique and special soul, and Connor was suited to her. This is what she says in Shiny Happy People.

We became little more than observers. I could no longer bear to just watch all the suffering. I had to find a way back. But, first I needed a miracle. And so I arranged one. (touches Connor's face) Through you, Angel, through Darla. That is where my parentage began. Two vampires.. creatures one human corrupted by darkness. And you with a soul.. a miracle already.

But this is a retocon, the birth of Connor, originally had other purposes. That's what I meant.

Edit:

The whole history of Connor, (which, to me.. was much important) is eventually reduced to a spermatozoon, because it is the only contribution that he has given to allow Jasmine to get back into our dimension. and this seems a bit simplistic to "the son of the miracle," given the emphasis for the birth of Connor in the third season. It seems to me that is dwarfed even the sacrifice of Darla, after all she is dead for the sake of his son.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Yes, of course ..Jasmine was in need of a unique and special soul, and Connor was suited to her. This is what she says in Shiny Happy People.

We became little more than observers. I could no longer bear to just watch all the suffering. I had to find a way back. But, first I needed a miracle. And so I arranged one. (touches Connor's face) Through you, Angel, through Darla. That is where my parentage began. Two vampires.. creatures one human corrupted by darkness. And you with a soul.. a miracle already.

But this is a retocon, the birth of Connor, originally had other purposes. That's what I meant.

Edit:

The whole history of Connor, (which, to me.. was much important) is eventually reduced to a spermatozoon, because it is the only contribution that he has given to allow Jasmine to get back into our dimension. and this seems a bit simplistic to "the son of the miracle," given the emphasis for the birth of Connor in the third season. It seems to me that is dwarfed even the sacrifice of Darla, after all she is dead for the sake of his son.

Don't know how this plays into your opinion, but BS9 establishes that while in Quortoth, Connor inadvertently created a new religion of peace. Willow, Angel, and Faith helped him eventually rescue those good beings, transporting them to a friendlier world.

 

[Lyri]

Then why didn't she? It seems to me that it would have been a lot easier to have Cordy return but have no connection with the fang gang... send her to Alaska and mate with some snow demon and then wait for the pregnancy to occur. Thus requiring there to be no need for the beast, ring of fire, blocking out the sun, any confrontation with the fang gang etc

Because that would have made for a really boring TV show?

As [MENTION=10426]janas[/MENTION] pointed out, this is Joss we're talking about, he always goes for the hurt. So of course he's going to go for the worst possible thing.

And, yes, according to what we actually saw, Connor was important to Jasmine's arrival in Team Angel's world, I'm not disputing that at all. But that doesn't change the fact of what Jasmine actually was and what she was capable of. She would have gotten herself into this world with or without Connor.

 

[janas]

[MENTION=8682]Buffyverse Fan[/MENTION]: I know 🙂 Demons "dog" worshiped Connor as a God the Saviour. But we don't forget that Connor saved people even before the season nine, both in the show that in the IDW comics.