Question Say anything's possible; Who should Angel be with?

[Wishing Oceans]

Yes, I agree. They were too in love to be friends. I don't get where you're arguing with me. You believe that two people who are that in love can't be friends, yes? So do I.

I dunno, Twillow was an extremely loving relationship, and they were best friends. All deep loving relationships have friendship. Are you saying that people who fell in love THEN tried being friends can't be friends? I think that they can; IMO romantic love is just the next step from friendship love. 🙂

I agree to a certain extent but I also believe that a degree of friendship is part of every romantic relationship. Friendship does not have to come first in the building of relationships but I do believe it does eventually come at some stage. In a romantic relationship there is a level of comraderie, of trust, of just hanging out and enjoying the company of that person, of shared interests and/or history. All these things are the backbone of friendships. What differs from the two is the sexual attraction and affection. Also there is the distinction between loving a friend and being in love.

My opinion exactly. 🙂

Friendship comes with the lovers side. I'll never believe they weren't friends, because without friendship relationship just can't work.

You just proved my point. 😀 As Buffy said, they're weren't friends, and their relationship DID epically fail. 😀

 

[Kean]

My opinion exactly. 🙂

You realise I was talking about Bangel there? 😛

You just proved my point. 😀 As Buffy said, they're weren't friends, and their relationship DID epically fail. 😀

However, their relationship didn't end due to a lack of friendship within the wider romantic relationship but rather due to circumstances that were out of their control i.e. curses and those pesky destinies getting in their way.

When Buffy says they are not friends she means they are not just friends. Huge difference.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Fail? I think that's strong and wrong word for their relathionship. I think it never ended. Maybe I'm the most romantic person here, and maybe it's because I grow up watching Walt Disney and happy endings, but I belive they never ended. They just took a long, long pause. To end something, it means to never happen again. And since he left, by your theory, they ended their relathionship many times after that. They didn't failed. They were friends. It's something you need for the relathionship. With some people you can't just be friends, because you conected at much deeper level. But if you fell in love with someone it doesn't mean that, that person is not your friend. Just because you kiss him on the lips, it doesn't mean he can't give you advice or understand you. People say that your soul mate is your best friend.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

You realise I was talking about Bangel there? 😛

Well, that's my general opinion on relationships, without bringing any fictional 'ship to the mix. 🙂

However, their relationship didn't end due to a lack of friendship within the wider romantic relationship but rather due to circumstances that were out of their control i.e. curses and those pesky destinies getting in their way.

Either way, it was doomed from the very beginning. 😀

When Buffy says they are not friends she means they are not just friends. Huge difference.

How do you know for sure? She never said "we're not just friends!" 😀 It's open for interpretation. But, let's say you're right, because there's a 50% chance you are. If she meant just friends, then she'd be saying that as soon as they met they were romantically "in love" with each other, which isn't good either. 😀

I dunno, my favorite 'ships are the ones that start off as enemies/ not friends, turn into unrequited love, friendship, then finally romance. 🙂 And of course those utterly beautiful, loving 'ships like Twillow. And fun, sexy 'ships like Spangel and Spillyria. In fact, I like pretty much every 'ship in Buffy/ Angel EXCEPT Bangel. I've never liked Bangel, and I never will. It is in fact probably my most hated 'ship. But I digress. 😀

Fail? I think that's strong and wrong word for their relathionship. I think it never ended.

Well, it didn't work out, did it? As Buffy said in Chosen, "what was the highlight of our relationship? When you broke up with me or when I killed you?" And basically all relationships end sometime, people change. 🙂

Maybe I'm the most romantic person here, and maybe it's because I grow up watching Walt Disney and happy endings, but I belive they never ended. They just took a long, long pause. To end something, it means to never happen again. And since he left, by your theory, they ended their relathionship many times after that. They didn't failed. They were friends. It's something you need for the relathionship. With some people you can't just be friends, because you conected at much deeper level. But if you fell in love with someone it doesn't mean that, that person is not your friend. Just because you kiss him on the lips, it doesn't mean he can't give you advice or understand you. People say that your soul mate is your best friend.

... I kinda hate romance. 😀 Although yes, like most, I also grew up watching Walt Disney movies, but I always thought the 'ships were stupid, even way back then. 😀 And I think that friendship is WAY deeper than any romantic love. That's why people say that you should NEVER choose your partner over your friends. And if so, then Angel isn't her soul mate now is he, because he DEFINITELY wasn't her best friend at any time, that's be Willow and Xander. 😀

 

[thevikingsgirl]

In my eyes, their relationship failed because I don't read the comics. And Buffy didn't say, "We're not just friends. We'll never be just friends." She said, "We're not friends. We never were." So if you choose to believe she really meant they're not JUST friends, you're changing what she said to suit your own desires. That's fine if you want to do that - make up your own story lines, it's fun. But that's not what she said.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I dunno, Twillow was an extremely loving relationship, and they were best friends. All deep loving relationships have friendship. Are you saying that people who fell in love THEN tried being friends can't be friends? I think that they can; IMO romantic love is just the next step from friendship love. 🙂

Well, of course two people who used to be together but no longer are can be friends in time - when they're no longer in love. I just personally believe that two people who are in love can't be truly just friends.

Perhaps the issue here is that my definition of friendship is perhaps a bit different then others'. I believe in the idea of someone being both a friend and a lover. What I'm saying though is that when you are in love with someone it is impossible to be friends. There will always be a agenda.

Perhaps I'll use Spuffy as an example.

Spike and Buffy were not friends, IMO, in the true sense that I see it, until he got a soul. Before that, his actions almost always had an agenda (to get on her good side, to gain her respect, to be simply close to her, etc).

---------- Post added at 04:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:04 PM ----------

In my eyes, their relationship failed because I don't read the comics. And Buffy didn't say, "We're not just friends. We'll never be just friends." She said, "We're not friends. We never were." So if you choose to believe she really meant they're not JUST friends, you're changing what she said to suit your own desires. That's fine if you want to do that - make up your own story lines, it's fun. But that's not what she said.

This is EXACTLY what I'm getting at. Hey, I'm all for interpreting it however you see fit, but like I said earlier, you can't simply "delete" a conversation/episode/etc just because it doesn't suit your ship.

Do you know how much I wish Bangel's little 'cookie-dough' speech didn't exist? Just because I don't like it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Oh, Idea!
That leads me to a very interesting idea for a thread....

 

[Wishing Oceans]

Kean agrees: I wouldn't be so dismissive of romantic love until you've been in it 😉

I HAVE been in romantic love before. And it was pretty much exactly the same as spuffy, except for the crazy depression/ sex thing, obviously. 😀 And it was really fun, and I'll probably always love him, even though it's been ages since I've even just spoken to him. And I'll be honest, I've never loved someone romantically as much as I loved him ever again, so maybe it's true that Buffy will always love Angel more. But anyway, even in my own personal life "Bangel- romance" doesn't exist (thank god 😀 ), so I find it hard to understand.

Spike and Buffy were not friends, IMO, in the true sense that I see it, until he got a soul. Before that, his actions almost always had an agenda (to get on her good side, to gain her respect, to be simply close to her, etc).

But once he got a soul, they immediately became BFF's, more or less. 😀

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I HAVE been in romantic love before. And it was pretty much exactly the same as spuffy, except for the crazy depression/ sex thing, obviously. 😀 And it was really fun, and I'll probably always love him, even though it's been ages since I've even just spoken to him. And I'll be honest, I've never loved someone romantically as much as I loved him ever again, so maybe it's true that Buffy will always love Angel more. But anyway, even in my own personal life "Bangel- romance" doesn't exist (thank god 😀 ), so I find it hard to understand.

Oriana, I get what you're saying but I also get what you're saying, Kean. You're young Oriana and who knows, maybe you will someday be in a Bangel-like relationship, and maybe you'll understand. Our life experiences, our personal views, all color how we read and how we interpret a text.
Me? I'm almost 25, and have been in quite a few relationships I'll freely admit, yet, I've never been the romantic type. Yet, that doesn't mean I don't understand or love romance.

I relate to Spuffy and not to Bangel because my relationships have been more Spuffy-like (sans the violence, obviously).

Anyway, back on topic: Who should Angel be with? Cordelia, obviously. OR SPIKE. 😉

---------- Post added at 04:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:40 PM ----------

But once he got a soul, they immediately became BFF's, more or less. 😀

Of course they did! Because it was only then, when he had a soul, that she could truly trust and respect him as an equal. That is a big part of true friendship, IMO.

 

[Kean]

Well, of course two people who used to be together but no longer are can be friends in time - when they're no longer in love. I just personally believe that two people who are in love can't be truly just friends.

Perhaps the issue here is that my definition of friendship is perhaps a bit different then others'. I believe in the idea of someone being both a friend and a lover. What I'm saying though is that when you are in love with someone it is impossible to be friends. There will always be a agenda.

Perhaps I'll use Spuffy as an example.

Spike and Buffy were not friends, IMO, in the true sense that I see it, until he got a soul. Before that, his actions almost always had an agenda (to get on her good side, to gain her respect, to be simply close to her, etc).

---------- Post added at 04:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:04 PM ----------



This is EXACTLY what I'm getting at. Hey, I'm all for interpreting it however you see fit, but like I said earlier, you can't simply "delete" a conversation/episode/etc just because it doesn't suit your ship.

Do you know how much I wish Bangel's little 'cookie-dough' speech didn't exist? Just because I don't like it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Oh, Idea!
That leads me to a very interesting idea for a thread....

My point is that just because Buffy says they are not friends does not mean that there was no friendship (as I have outlined already in my earlier posts) in their relationship. I feel that is extremely rigid and black and white. As we agreed upon already, you can't be just friends with someone you are in love with. That's why I believe there is an implication of there being a silent "just" when she says that line in Lovers Walk. In saying that I don't think I am rewriting canon by thinking that or doing anything that makes my ship more desirable to me. Angel and Buffy being BFF's isn't going to bring me any more joy or sorrow. I haven't added or taken any significance from the relationship. The wholepoint of that scene was to show that they are still in love, how I interpret that exhange doesn't mess with it.

 

[Flannen]

Have to agree with this. Buffy's word is final say.

By saying this, Buffy is stating her belief that people in love can't be friends.

Has she said anything since that proves she has changed her stance on his issue? No.

Ok, Buffy said this in season three when she was eighteen years old. Her and Angel have changed so much since then and come to understand so much more about love and relationships I'd suggest she might think differently now, even if she doesn't say it.

And if not, and everything she said then still stands, she still wants to end up with Angel when she's done baking. After all she told him: 'I want my life to be with you'...😉 😛

And whichever one of them I choose, they both still tell me that Angel is meant to be with her. If he was meant to be or wanted to be with anyone else, then he would be. But, he's still waiting.

I think a lot of depends on how you take the word 'meant'. As in, is he fated to be with her? Is she his soul mate? Are they each other's one's? Out of everyone in that list, I just feel he connects with her more than anyone else on all different levels.

 

[InsaneMystic]

The way I see it, friendship is a form of love, but romance excludes love (and thus, friendship too, by default). I see loads of romance in Bangel, and thus, no love and no friendship there. On the other hand, I - thankfully, for their love 😛 - see no romance between Spuffy in S7... (One of the seemingly few points where I disagree with Joan. 🙂 ) I do see tons of Spuffy romance in S5, though. They went from romance (S5), to sex (S6), to finally love (S7) - and that progression and growth is what makes me love the ship, contrary to Bangel, who just stay mired in romance and go nowhere. Epic fail. 😛

I firmly hold that if you love someone, you will always be able to be friends with them, even if it's "just" friends and your love is not quite platonic. You can never be friends while being romantically attracted, though, because you'll always put your own desires over the well-being of the other part while being 'manced-up. To me, it basically is drug abuse with the substance being provided by your own brain, and your so-called lover being your pusher. It's utterly selfish by nature, while love means you never lose sight of the "bigger picture", so to say.

Oh and that also means I disagree with Kean here:

Kean agrees: I wouldn't be so dismissive of romantic love until you've been in it 😉

IMO, the sooner you get dismissive of it, the better. 😀 Sadly, I guess most people will still have to learn it the hard way... like me. I hate society/pop culture treating romance like it's a good thing.

As for the poll question... as long as it's not Buffy, I can live with it. Spike would have been the most fun to watch, while Cordy would probably have been best, overall (is Kristine squeeing with joy right now reading my post? lol) - she didn't take cr*p from him, and I saw their whole chemistry as friendly and decidedly unromantic, which, for me, is a good thing to say about a ship. 😉

 

[TheVoid68]

I'm glad and surprised that Cordy is in the lead. I thought that Bangel was more popular, but apparently not (Joss, you might want to come and look at this poll!) I say Cordelia, because she actually made him happy. All Buffy did when she was with Angel is moon over him, and all Angel did was brood. When Cordy was with him she laughed and joked and actually made him smile now and again 😉. And when he was brooding, rather than letting him wallow like Buffy did, she went in there and knocked him out of it. I think Angel needs a woman who can do that, and Cordy's brutal honesty is essential for doing so. Yes, Buffy and Angel were in love, but they weren't good together. They just made each other unhappy.

As for the dream in S4, I think that proves conclusively that at that point in time, Angel loved Cordelia more than he loved Buffy. That was his "Perfect Day" fantasy, and in Angel's perfect day he gets groiny with Cordelia. It was a fantasy, so anything could have happened, Buffy could have turned up and gave him "perfect happiness" if that was what Angel wanted, but he didn't. It doesn't matter whether he said her name or not, the fact is that in Angel's perfect fantasy he was with Cordelia, not Buffy.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I'm glad and surprised that Cordy is in the lead. I thought that Bangel was more popular, but apparently not (Joss, you might want to come and look at this poll!) I say Cordelia, because she actually made him happy. All Buffy did when she was with Angel is moon over him, and all Angel did was brood. When Cordy was with him she laughed and joked and actually made him smile now and again 😉. And when he was brooding, rather than letting him wallow like Buffy did, she went in there and knocked him out of it. I think Angel needs a woman who can do that, and Cordy's brutal honesty is essential for doing so. Yes, Buffy and Angel were in love, but they weren't good together. They just made each other unhappy.

As for the dream in S4, I think that proves conclusively that at that point in time, Angel loved Cordelia more than he loved Buffy. That was his "Perfect Day" fantasy, and in Angel's perfect day he gets groiny with Cordelia. It was a fantasy, so anything could have happened, Buffy could have turned up and gave him "perfect happiness" if that was what Angel wanted, but he didn't. It doesn't matter whether he said her name or not, the fact is that in Angel's perfect fantasy he was with Cordelia, not Buffy.

God, I disagree with you on so many levels, I don't know where to start. Firstly, I so don't agree that Joss should see this poll, it's how show, his comics, whatever, it's his idea and he can do with it what he wants, in what he belives in. Because if you make a show based on fans wishes, it's not your show anymore, and let's be honest, no one is going to be happy then, so it's better that Joss follows his rules and wishes.
You described Bangel like it's that simple. Once again, when people don't like something, they describe it in the most simple way, so it sounds bad. Buffy and Angel were more then that, I agree, they had their bad moments, and good moments, for me they has more good moments, that's becuse I love them. But you can't say Buffy wasn't good for Angel. Buffy is the reason Angel is here today. She helpped him to stand on his feet. With just one look, she gave him the strenght. True, all the rest he did himself, but to be good, someone has to give you a push, so Angel must be thankful to Buffy, even if she didn't knew he was watching her, that meant a lot to him. Made each other unhappy. If they did that, how come she gave him ONE MOMENT OF TRUE HAPPINES? See, they were happy, because they felt something most people never feel. If you think he loved Cordelia more, well I can't argue with that, that is your opinion, but you can't say they weren't good for each other. She helpped him to stand on his feet, and he helpped her grow up.

 

[VisionGuy]

Cordelia, but she can do a lot better. And who in the hell is Nina? I don't know her.

 

[TheVoid68]

God, I disagree with you on so many levels, I don't know where to start.

Excellent. 🙂

Firstly, I so don't agree that Joss should see this poll, it's how show, his comics, whatever, it's his idea and he can do with it what he wants, in what he belives in. Because if you make a show based on fans wishes, it's not your show anymore, and let's be honest, no one is going to be happy then, so it's better that Joss follows his rules and wishes.

I was just referring to the fact that Joss wrote Cordy off and stopped the C/A romance because, as he claimed, the fans didn't care about Cangel that much. He seriously underestimated the support it had, and this poll shows that.

But you can't say Buffy wasn't good for Angel. Buffy is the reason Angel is here today. She helpped him to stand on his feet. With just one look, she gave him the strenght. True, all the rest he did himself, but to be good, someone has to give you a push, so Angel must be thankful to Buffy, even if she didn't knew he was watching her, that meant a lot to him.

I didn't say Buffy never did anything for Angel. She gave him a push, yes. So did Whistler, Doyle, Cordy, Lorne, etc, at different stages of his life. Angel owes his continued strength to lots of people, not just Buffy. Secondly, I think Angel was a better person without Buffy in his life. Why? Because he was a happier person, surrounded by friends, who smiled and made jokes, and was all-around a nicer person to everyone he met, not just Buffy.

Made each other unhappy. If they did that, how come she gave him ONE MOMENT OF TRUE HAPPINES? See, they were happy, because they felt something most people never feel.

That proves that they were very happy for, at the least, one single moment. However, I still think that the unhappiness outweighs the happiness.

If you think he loved Cordelia more, well I can't argue with that, that is your opinion, but you can't say they weren't good for each other.

Yes I can. Sure, they were in love, but that doesn't mean they were good for each other. They didn't make each other happy. And I'm not talking about epic-moment-of-pure-bliss-happy, I'm talking chatting-over-a-doughnut-and-a-cup-of-coffee happy, and I believe that the latter kind of happy is far more important in the long run.

She helpped him to stand on his feet,

Explain please.

and he helpped her grow up.

They only time he did this was when he left. Supporting my "they were better off gone their seperate ways" theory.

 

[Taake]

Who Angel should be with? Ehm, obviously Buffy. 😀

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I didn't say Buffy never did anything for Angel. She gave him a push, yes. So did Whistler, Doyle, Cordy, Lorne, etc, at different stages of his life. Angel owes his continued strength to lots of people, not just Buffy. Secondly, I think Angel was a better person without Buffy in his life. Why? Because he was a happier person, surrounded by friends, who smiled and made jokes, and was all-around a nicer person to everyone he met, not just Buffy.

That's because he got his own show. He got to be the center of attention. In BtVS that was Buffy. He got a lot more lines, and we got to know him more on Angel. But we are not talking about characters growth, arn't we? We are here talking about love. Yes many people helpped him, but probably, if he never saw Buffy, if Whistler never showed him Buffy, he would still be on Manhattan eating rats. In some other situation maybw that push would be something else, but it was Buffy, and that's normal, because on her the show is based on.

 

[Bluebird]

I've always thought Angel pined over Buffy way too much, and the relationship with Cordelia sometimes seemed a bit forced. I always loved Dangel though. They have some great chemistry together.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I'm glad and surprised that Cordy is in the lead. I thought that Bangel was more popular, but apparently not (Joss, you might want to come and look at this poll!) I say Cordelia, because she actually made him happy. All Buffy did when she was with Angel is moon over him, and all Angel did was brood. When Cordy was with him she laughed and joked and actually made him smile now and again 😉. And when he was brooding, rather than letting him wallow like Buffy did, she went in there and knocked him out of it. I think Angel needs a woman who can do that, and Cordy's brutal honesty is essential for doing so. Yes, Buffy and Angel were in love, but they weren't good together. They just made each other unhappy.

As for the dream in S4, I think that proves conclusively that at that point in time, Angel loved Cordelia more than he loved Buffy. That was his "Perfect Day" fantasy, and in Angel's perfect day he gets groiny with Cordelia. It was a fantasy, so anything could have happened, Buffy could have turned up and gave him "perfect happiness" if that was what Angel wanted, but he didn't. It doesn't matter whether he said her name or not, the fact is that in Angel's perfect fantasy he was with Cordelia, not Buffy.

My god, I agree with everything you've said here, friend. *karma*

Bangel was characterized by pain and loss. Every few and far between "happy" moment that had was overshadowed by huge traumatic events (losing his soul and trying to kill her and her friends, stabbing him and sending him to Hell, coming back from Hell a feral animal....etc). Sure, they were very much in love, but Angel knew they were wrong for each other, and he made the right decision by leaving. Just because two people are in love does not mean they are compatible in the long run.

Cordelia and Ange's relationshipl, on the other hand...was something truly beautiful. I don't think it was forced at all. For me, it was perfectly natural. Here was two friends who grew to love each other. Happens everyday. Cordelia, as you say, could make him smile, and she kept him on track with his mission. Cordelia made him a better person, as did Buffy.

I don't think that Angel loved Cordelia more then he loved Buffy back when him and the later were together, though. Buffy was his first love, the women who inspired him to be the Hero he is today. He'll always have a place in his heart for her, I think. He loved Cordelia as much but in a different way, I think. He called Cordelia his "dearest" friend. He never called Buffy his friend. But I guess that's for another thread... *cough*

Anyhow, great post. Totally agree. Glad you joined, TheVoid. 🙂

---------- Post added at 09:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 AM ----------

That's because he got his own show. He got to be the center of attention. In BtVS that was Buffy. He got a lot more lines, and we got to know him more on Angel. But we are not talking about characters growth, arn't we? We are here talking about love. Yes many people helpped him, but probably, if he never saw Buffy, if Whistler never showed him Buffy, he would still be on Manhattan eating rats. In some other situation maybw that push would be something else, but it was Buffy, and that's normal, because on her the show is based on.

Agreed. Buffy had a huge hand in inspiring Angel to fight the good fight. Yet, without Whistler - who showed Angel who Buffy was and the struggles she was facing - he wouldn't even know she existed. So, technically, Whistler was more important.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Agreed. Buffy had a huge hand in inspiring Angel to fight the good fight. Yet, without Whistler - who showed Angel who Buffy was and the struggles she was facing - he wouldn't even know she existed. So, technically, Whistler was more important.

I think it's 50-50. If Whistler never came, Angel would never see Buffy, and if Whistler never showed Buffy to Angel, Angel would never belive that he is meant for greatness. They both had a big part in Angel's life.