Saying Goodbye To Joyce

[white avenger]

Through Herculean effort, I managed to restrain myself and stick completely to the subject in the "How Sweet It Was..." thread about Angel coming back to Sunnydale when Joyce died (okay, he came back to comfort and cuddle with Buffy in her moment of loss. No problem with that), and yet no one ever comments on how unfeeling it was of Xander to not allow Spike to express his sympathy the night before at Buffy's house.

Regardless of whether or not Xander and the others approved of Spike's interest in Buffy, they all definitely knew that Spike and Dawn were friends, and that he and Joyce had been friends even before the chip. So what gave them any right to turn Spike away? If either vampire had any kind of right to stand beside Joyce's grave, it was Spike, not Angel. who had barely been on speaking terms with her.

 

[Professor Walsh]

I felt really bad for Spike then. He there is ever a time for generosity, the time of bereavement is certainly it.

 

[freddy]

I have not really been angry at Xander a lot... except when it comes to the vampires who love Buffy.

I understand his motives, I suppose, for not allowing Spike to express his sympathy... the whole lack of a soul bit... Yet, as white avenger said, Spike knew Joyce better than Angel knew her.

I think that definitely was one of the more upsetting points in the episode(s) following The Body.

 

[faeriegrrl27]

I can see where Xander was coming from at first. He never had the best perception of Spike's relationships with the Summers girls, and it follows his character that he suspect Spike to use to opportunity to get in Buffy's pants. But once Anya pointed out that Spike hadn't left a note, he should have admitted he was wrong. I think that's Xander's biggest flaw, actually. But that's beside the point. Once it became clear that Spike was just trying to express his condolences, Xander should have been taken aback or at least expressed some form of shame for the way he'd treated Spike. Even now, Buffy doesn't know that Spike really did try to help the girls in the best way he knew how after Joyce's death.

 

[Lyri]

I can see where Xander was coming from.

At that moment, he was looking out for his best friend, who had just lost her mother, and here was Spike, who had done nothing, for weeks, maybe even months, but stalk Buffy and use every opportunity he could to get close to her, and be near her to fuel what was beginning to be an obsession. He'd just kidnapped her, for God's sake!

How was Xander to know that he just wanted to mourn Joyce's passing? Or send his condolences to Buffy and Dawn? I don't think Xander had any idea about the close relationship between Joyce and Spike.

That being said, once Anya pointed out that the flowers had no card, that Spike wasn't expecting recognition for that he did, I do think Spike should have apologized, and I hope he gave Buffy the flowers. But I do understand why he did what he did.

---------- Post added at 11:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 PM ----------

Wishing Oceans agrees: Willow pointed it out, not Anya 🙂

Ah, apologies. It's been a while since I watched S5.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

I agree with the others. I can see why Xander would have assumed that Spike had an ulterior motive since in his world Vampire=Bad bad bad, but once Willow (lol, I'm not sure why y'all think it was Anya 😀 ) pointed out that there wasn't a card it only would've been right of him to swallow his pride and apologize. One of them was in the wrong in that situation, and it wasn't Spike.

Of course, just goes to remind you what assuming makes of you...:biggrin3:

 

[white avenger]

I

, I do think Spike should have apologized, and I hope he gave Buffy the flowers. But I do understand why he did what he did.



.

I assume that you meant to say that Xander should apologize to Spike, because at that particular moment, Spike was the one offended, not Xander.

 

[Lyri]

Dammit, lol, yes that was what I meant. Xander.

 

[Kean]

:confused2:

I agree with the others. I can see why Xander would have assumed that Spike had an ulterior motive since in his world Vampire=Bad bad bad, but once Willow (lol, I'm not sure why y'all think it was Anya 😀 ) pointed out that there wasn't a card it only would've been right of him to swallow his pride and apologize. One of them was in the wrong in that situation, and it wasn't Spike.

Of, course goes to remind you what assuming makes of you...:biggrin3:

Xander wasn't someone that would apologise to a vampire, no matter how "in the wrong" what offense he had caused against them. He never apologised to Angel (or Buffy) for the "kick his ass" comment, he sure as Hell wasn't going to apologise to Spike for this.

Bottom line, Xander had reason to doubt Spike but when he was proven wrong (with the lack of card) he had his oppertunity to apologise and he didn't take it. I honestly think this Xander was too immature to swallow his pride. The Xander of now who has lost SO much, I think he would have been able to set his differences aside and acknowledge Spikes genuine grief.

What I will say though, is that Spike, at this stage, was as kind to Xander as Xander was to him. I think not wanting to lose ground to Spike played a part in Xander's not apogising. I'm not saying he was right but I can absolutely understand why, even after he realised Spike was being real, that Xander didn't trust him. I mean every single thing with Spike before that moment had been driven by an agenda. Especially if Xander was not aware of Spike's friendship with Joyce, why wouldn't he think it was another sick game with Spike?

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Xander and the others never approved of Spike and often acted mean towards him because he's a monster who likes to kill people for fun(in season 5), and just a few months before Spike declared his love for Buffy, he tried to kill her. As a matter of fact, he repeatedly told the scoobies how evil he was, until he turned a 180 and all of a sudden was all buddy-buddy.

I can't see myself react any nicer around him if I was Xander or Buffy or the others. To me, a killer isn't someone who deserves respect because they all of a sudden fall in love with you or one of your friends and decides to act nice. Even if I believed he was sad because my friend's mom had died, I wouldn't be nice to him, since just a few months earlier, he tried to kill said friend.

I can't say Xander's behavior is admireable, I mean there's never a good enough reason to sink to that level, but I definitly get it.

 

[Lyri]

Xander's position in the show was as the 'human'. He was the one who did things because he was human, a man, a mortal. He was fallible, just like the rest of us.

Put yourself in Xander's shoes. You best friend's mom has just died, and the man who has been stalking her for weeks, who tried to kill her more than once, who kidnapped her just a few weeks before, has turned up at her door with flowers.

Card or no card...what would you do? I know what I would do. Right or wrong, I would have done exactly the same thing as Xander.

 

[Chris2]

Put yourself in Xander's shoes. You best friend's mom has just died, and the man who has been stalking her for weeks, who tried to kill her more than once, who kidnapped her just a few weeks before, has turned up at her door with flowers.

Card or no card...what would you do? I know what I would do. Right or wrong, I would have done exactly the same thing as Xander.

I don't know if I would have done the same thing as Xander, but I wasn't surprised at all by his reaction. He does have every reason to dislike and distrust Spike.

:confused2:
Xander wasn't someone that would apologise to a vampire, no matter how "in the wrong" what offense he had caused against them. He never apologised to Angel (or Buffy) for the "kick his ass" comment, he sure as Hell wasn't going to apologise to Spike for this.

Absolutely. I think that even if Xander thought he had been unfair to Spike, he wouldn't feel any need to apologise - as far as he's concerned, Spike is not a person with feelings that can be hurt, he's a soulless monster (I imagine plenty of people here will have differing opinions on how correct that view is :smile🙂.

 

[white avenger]

Put yourself in Xander's shoes. You best friend's mom has just died, and the man who has been stalking her for weeks, who tried to kill her more than once, who kidnapped her just a few weeks before, has turned up at her door with flowers.

Card or no card...what would you do? I know what I would do. Right or wrong, I would have done exactly the same thing as Xander.

I would hope that I would have been objective enough to realize that Spike and Joyce had been friends, and that he was someone who Dawn still cared for, and as such had as much right to be there and to offer his sympathy at that time as any other friend of the family, or at least two thirds of the family. If Xander was suspicious of Spike, he could have called Buffy or Dawn and asked what they wanted him to do. Friend or no friend, Xander had no right to arbitrarily decide who could or could not pay their last respects to Joyce or express their sympathy to her family. And before anyone accuses me of wearing my "Spike colored glasses" again, let me assure you that I would feel exactly the same way if it had been Angel or anyone else in those same circumstances. It was Buffy's right, and Dawns, to decide who was or was not welcome there, not Xander's, Willow's, or even Giles'.

Xander's actions, however well intended they might have been, were wrong, and I believe that if Dawn or even Buffy had ever found out about it, they would have been upset at least, if not downright angry.

******
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kean View Post

Xander wasn't someone that would apologise to a vampire, no matter how "in the wrong" what offense he had caused against them. He never apologised to Angel (or Buffy) for the "kick his ass" comment, he sure as Hell wasn't going to apologise to Spike for this.

******

And that is a major flaw in Xander's character. It's quite often very hard to admit that you are wrong, and even harder at times to apologize to someone who you don't particularly like or trust, but it is, or at least should be, a matter of personal honor, that it be done when necessary.

 

[Eleftheria]

I can understand both sides. Spike wanting to apologise is sweet but he and Angel have exactly the same rights to grieve and mourn for Joyce's death. Joyce may have not liked Angel much, but she knew the love he had for her daughter, anyway.

And Xander, yeah...he seems to dislike every vampire who wants Buffy. This moment was kind of sensitive and maybe Xander didn't want the vampire who has been stalking Buffy for so many days around them grieving with them.

I am not supporting any sides here, cause a time of grief and mourning is a senstive matter, and I can see Spike really meant to grieve for Joyce. I can also understand Xander who wanted to protect his friend.

 

[Lyri]

I would hope that I would have been objective enough to realize that Spike and Joyce had been friends, and that he was someone who Dawn still cared for, and as such had as much right to be there and to offer his sympathy at that time as any other friend of the family, or at least two thirds of the family. If Xander was suspicious of Spike, he could have called Buffy or Dawn and asked what they wanted him to do. Friend or no friend, Xander had no right to arbitrarily decide who could or could not pay their last respects to Joyce or express their sympathy to her family. And before anyone accuses me of wearing my "Spike colored glasses" again, let me assure you that I would feel exactly the same way if it had been Angel or anyone else in those same circumstances. It was Buffy's right, and Dawns, to decide who was or was not welcome there, not Xander's, Willow's, or even Giles'.

Xander's actions, however well intended they might have been, were wrong, and I believe that if Dawn or even Buffy had ever found out about it, they would have been upset at least, if not downright angry.

Okay, so let me get this straight. You would WILLINGLY let a stalker into your best friend's home, just so that he could give her some flowers 'cause her mother died? Never mind the fact that Spike, for the moment, had his heart in the right place, this was a man who killed for fun, who kidnapped Xander, and his friends, to make himself feel better.

Let's pretend for a second that this was the real world, no vampires, no Slayers. Just regular people.

If Spike's stalking had been committed by a normal man, he would have undoubtedly been reported to the police by the time this episode took place. He may have even been in custody, or out on bail.

What do you think the police would have said when his next incident is reported if Xander had let him into the house? The cops would have been all over them for allowing the stalker contact with his obsession, which, in the real world, would more than likely make the obsession grow, not make it go away.

I don't think there was any reason for Xander to be so cruel to Spike, but I blame the heightened emotions of just loosing the one woman who actually acted like a mother to him. I do think he thought he was doing the right thing to keep his friend safe, which is the most important thing. Buffy was hurting enough, Xander didn't know what Spike was going to do. Spike is the ultimate opportunist. He took advantage of every situation he was presented with. Xander saw Spike as a threat, he always has, and flowers or no flowers, he saw the biggest threat as being against Buffy and Dawn, two of only three people Xander would willingly put his life on the line trying to protect.

Xander was doing what he does best. Being a good friend and protecting those he cared about during what was a very difficult time for them. Anyone with half a brain would have done the same.

The last thing Xander wanted to do was go and tell Buffy that Spike was at the door, considering her whole world just fell apart.

Yes, I think Xander should have maybe acknowledged he was wrong to assume Spike wanted anything at that time but to mourn the death of his friend, but considering his actions up to that point, I'm not entirely sure he was wrong to do what he did and stop Spike.

 

[Kean]

Also, just a sidenote but Xander handed Angelus the exact same treatment in Killed by Death when he refused to let him give Buffy the roses at the hospital. He had no reason to treat Spike any differently. Yes, afterwards he realised that Spike was genuine but at end of the day Spike was a monster and a handful of kind acts do not make a man. Even if Xander had considered apologisng to Spike those thoughts would have been completely erradicated by Spike's escpades in the next episode where he is boinking the BuffyBot all over Sunnydale. Spike was unpredictable and untrustworthy, a bunch of flowers doesn't change that.

 

[white avenger]

Okay, so let me get this straight. You would WILLINGLY let a stalker into your best friend's home, just so that he could give her some flowers 'cause her mother died? Never mind the fact that Spike, for the moment, had his heart in the right place, this was a man who killed for fun, who kidnapped Xander, and his friends, to make himself feel better.


Xander was doing what he does best. Being a good friend and protecting those he cared about during what was a very difficult time for them. Anyone with half a brain would have done the same.

The last thing Xander wanted to do was go and tell Buffy that Spike was at the door, considering her whole world just fell apart.

No, I would WILLINGLY let someone pay his last respects to one of the very few real friends that that person had in the world. The flowers were for Joyce, not Buffy. And I do agree to the fact that in the real wold that might not be the wisest of actions, considering Spike's previous activities, but in the real world people aren't fitted with electronic devices in their brains that make them harmless to all humans.

If Xander had any idea that Spike might try to cause any trouble while expressing his condolences to Joyce's family, it would have been a simple matter to go in with him just to be sure that he behaved himself. If he did try to do anything, it would have been a simple matter to escort him out at that point. Spike was, after all, about as harmless as a puppy at that time.

Maybe Xander actually was acting in what he thought was Buffy's best interest, but I've always objected to the "I'm doing this fir your own good" excuse when it pertains to anyone perfectly capable of making their own choices. It seems to be a common thread that runs through both "Buffy" and "Angel."

---------- Post added at 09:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 PM ----------

Also, just a sidenote but Xander handed Angelus the exact same treatment in Killed by Death when he refused to let him give Buffy the roses at the hospital. He had no reason to treat Spike any differently.

The difference is that Angelus represented a clear and present danger to Buffy and everyone else, for that matter. Spike, with his chip, represented no such danger, and Xander was well aware of that fact.

 

[pieceofgosa]

I'm gonna have to sort of go with Lyri on this one. When someone close to you (or someone whose close to someone you're close to) dies, the world doesn't tend to make a whole lot of sense. I don't think Xander was doing what he thought was best, I don't think thinking had too much to do with it. It was simply his natural reaction, right or wrong & I don't think anybody can really question the actions of someone whose grieving. Plus we all know Xander hates vampires, I'm guessing that goes back to having to stake his best (male) friend when he was 16. In a state of grief he simply reverted to his default position.

 

[Kean]

The difference is that Angelus represented a clear and present danger to Buffy and everyone else, for that matter. Spike, with his chip, represented no such danger, and Xander was well aware of that fact.

That piece of plastic in Spike's head didn't stop him systematically tearing the Scoobies apart in The Yoko Factor, it didn't stop Spike making advances towards Buffy, it didn't stop him stalking her, and it didn't stop him chaining Buffy up a mere two episodes before Joyce had died.

Xander wasn't trying to protect Buffy from physical pain, he was protecting her from further emotional pain. He thought Spike was going to use Buffy's grief as an oppertunity to get in her pants.

Spike wanting to pay respects to Joyce may have been real but the fact that he is is comshucking the BuffyBot in the next episode creates a certain level of doubt as to whether Xander was all that wrong in his estimation of Spike.

 

[white avenger]

Spike wanting to pay respects to Joyce may have been real but the fact that he is is comshucking the BuffyBot in the next episode creates a certain level of doubt as to whether Xander was all that wrong in his estimation of Spike.

Whatever he did or didn't do with the BuffyBot two episodes later had nothing whatsoever to do with Xander's reasons unless he could see into the future. Use whatever argument that you might care to, the fact remains that Spike was Joyce's friend, and he was Dawn's friend, and he could have helped her cope with what was happening. But if we are going to condemn him for "comshucking" the BuffyBot two episodes later, we should also give him credit for not betraying Buffy and Dawn to Glory. I would think that resisting that kind of torture should cut him a little slack on the comshucking matter.