School Hard: Spike and Angel(us)

Wishing Oceans

Wishing Oceans

I don't think, I know.
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
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Basically, when and how do you think Spike knew that Angel had a soul?

I think that he knew all along. Darla was able to tell, said she could smell the soul on him, maybe Spike could do the same. In any case, he probably knew that he would've heard from Angel sooner if he had lost his soul.

Thoughts?
 
Maybe the word in the vampire world spreads fast. They are probably big gossip girls 🙂 I think he could "smell" it on him. I think vampires can smell anything good that is near them. They are like animals. They can smell blood.
 
I dont think Spike could tell just by sensing it. I think Angel gave it away by messing up his plan.

---------- Post added at 09:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:50 PM ----------

I dont think Spike could tell just by sensing it. I think Angel gave it away by messing up his (kinda stupid) plan, he totally hesitated biting Xander.
 
Why do people think vamps can smell souls?? I know Darla says she could but only after she knew he had one. And its not like Penn or James could mysteriously *smell* his soul. And when in s2(innocence) when Angel loses his soul, how come Spike and Dru need the judge to tell them he doesn't have any humanity in him. Shouldn't they have just smelled it?
 
M
Megalita
[No message]
PrincessBuffy16 disagrees: WTF?
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Didn't know it's allowed to be rude on board. Probably it's a new rule.

Drusilla was a seer. She knew when Angel was about to lose his soul, when Jenny wanted to re-ensoul Angelus. Probably she knew also the first time her precious Daddy was to be ensouled, but Spike&Dru were far away from Angelus&Darla at the time and she couldn't prevent it.

The Master also had a soul and with Angel killing only burglars (boxer rebellion) maybe Spike thought having a soul didn't count at the time. Only coming to Sunnydale and finding Angel allied with the slayer changed his opinion.

That's my take on it.

Some said it more simpler: the Anointed One or his minions told Spike that Angel had a soul.
 
B
BillyidolwannaB
What? The Master had a soul??
I seem to recall that Darla could tell just by looking at him that "something was wrong, then, upon closer examination, she could somehow see the soul. Also, Anya could see Spike's soul when she was back in her vengeance demon persona. Apparently the soul is somehow detectable by demons and vampires, so Spike could see it for himself. Alternatively, we know that Darla let Angel come back with her and the others even after the soul, because she mentioned while they were in China that, since regaining his soul, he only fed off of more or less evil people, no more succulent virgins or soft tender babies, So Spike might have found out then.
 
Well, the vamps sensing it is way off. In Why We Fight Spike had no idea Angel had a soul, so he didnt sense it and obviously Dru didnt know either. It was totally never implied vamps could sense souls, just the opposite in fact. Although its true Demon Anya somehow knew.
 
As for vampires sensing souls? Some can, some can't. Wesley more or less stated this in Disharmony. Darla could, Spike couldn't. Simples. It's more than likely he found out from the Master's minions when he asked about Buffy.
 
B
BillyidolwannaB
Oh yeah thats right, when their gonna go kill the vamp sect. well remembered.
Q-tip agrees: What? The Master had a soul??
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Well, he said he had in The Harvest.
Cut to the Master's lair. Luke approaches the Master and kneels before him. The Master offers his hand. Luke takes it and kisses it. He releases it and the Master turns it over to offer the underside of his wrist. Darla is watching and smiles. Luke opens the cuff of the Master's sleeve and pulls it back. He takes his hand again, sinks his fangs into the wrist above it and drinks of the blood. He releases the hand, and the Master takes it back.

Master: My blood is your blood. My soul is your soul.

Luke: My body is your instrument.

The Master steps down to Luke and begins to draw a three-pointed star on Luke's forehead with the blood still flowing from his wrist.

Master: On this... most hallowed night... we are as one. Luke is the Vessel!

Darla's smile widens.

Master: Every soul he takes will feed me. And their souls will grant me the strength to free myself. Tonight I shall walk the Earth, and the stars themselves will hide!
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BillyidolwannaB
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ubi4soft said:
Well, he said he had (a soul) in The Harvest.
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I think that it has been pretty much assumed here and in other places that when the Master referred to his soul, he was speaking figuratively, as in, he and Luke had, in that moment, formed some sort of psychic link.The Master, being as ancient as he was, and no doubt having been isolated from the human race except for feeding, would have no concept of the term "psychic,". The closest that he could come to describing the connection was to use the word "soul." But that remains one of several statements that have popped up at one time or another in the Buffyverse that Fans have argued over as to it's actual, exact meaning in context with the storyline, and, as far as I know, Joss has never addressed it specifically.

Besides which, I'm not sure that, at the time of the Master's statement, the whole vampire/soul issue had been addressed. It was only used later, once it was decided to make Angel a vampire, that the possession of a soul was what would make Angel different and unique from other vampires, and explain why he was fighting on the side of the good guys.

Day 17. 13 days to go.
 
I understand that is arguable, but Darla knew about the curse and the soul thing
Darla: "I'm not afraid of you. I bet she is, though. (starts to leave) Or maybe I'm underestimating her. Talk to her. Tell her about the curse.Maybe she'll come around. And if she still doesn't trust you, you know where I'll be" - Angel
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The Harvest - aired 10 Mar 1997
Angel - aired 14 Apr 1997

So if they changed their mind that was quick.

But during the years we saw many humans behave worst that monsters, having a soul only gives you free will, you still have to choose between good and evil, so it is possible for the Master to have a soul.
 
While it is possible that the Master has a soul, I don't see it personally.

And if we go with that script then Luke has one too and then the whole vampire with a soul thing gets a bit ridiculous -'My soul is your soul'.

I agree with WA, it's just the a piece of figurative language and then later he uses 'soul/s' to refer to people.

Master: Every soul he takes will feed me. And their souls will grant me the strength to free myself. Tonight I shall walk the Earth, and the stars themselves will hide!
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And both of them were pretty evil. Most of the time we see a demon with their soul returned they're not evil. It's not impossible that they can be evil with a soul, like you say we've seen that before, but its usually with the human characters.
 
I really don't want to beat down the dead cow, but please excuse me for still insisting on the matter.

Considering the Buffyverse in it's integrity from start till the end as we know it, it is confusing that the Master knowing that having a soul means something good still refers to himself as soul having. Why would he do something like that?

As a relatively new fan (two years, lurking on different sites and forums for almost one year) is kinda painful that I need to know not only the "behind the scene" version, but also the "behind the screenwriter whole history" in order to understand the verse.

The frustration is big but the addiction is higher. Long live the Buffyverse.
 
ubi4soft said:
Considering the Buffyverse in it's integrity from start till the end as we know it, it is confusing that the Master knowing that having a soul means something good still refers to himself as soul having. Why would he do something like that?
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I guess it all just comes down to your interpretation of that scene and those words, which is also a part of keeping the Buffyverse alive. 🙂

The only reason I've never really paid attention to that scene is because to me it was just a ritual. It had a real ceremonial feel about it which has always just made me think the words are figurative and dramatic as opposed to 'real', if you see what I mean.

And I had the same idea as Q Tip about whether vampires can 'sense' a soul in another being and why they all don't/can't is just whether it has something to do with the fact Darla was Angel's sire. If you think about the paternal connotations of a sire, a parent can usually tell when something's up.
 
I definitely don't think Spike could tell when Angel had a soul. His flashback in Fool for Love, how Angel reacted to hearing that he'd killed the slayer, takes on a whole new meaning when you see the same flashback from Angel's perspective in his show. Spike thought he was jealous, or felt like he'd been shown up.
 
and doens't spike say something like 'come one you were my sire man!' implying that.. there's some form of connection between them?

just a thought as that's how I figured spike knew angel wasn't angelus.
 
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