Scooby Gang & Cordelia

[chasesummers]

Cordelia wasn't the best bud in the first 3 seasons of Buffy but she definitely wasn't cold either. I feel she was a big part of the Scooby Gang and in their lives, so why is she viewed and talked about so negatively in the Buffy-area?

The Negative:
She was a lot of time self centered (like the homecoming thing), sometimes harsh (''who gave you the permission to exist?) and negatively honest.

The Positive:
She told Buffy to Get Over It when the others couldn't (When She Was Bad), she fought besides them in Graduation Day, she helped with research, she left her comfort-zone cause she loved Xander (Left Harmony etc), Would still love Xander even if he turned into a monster fish! (Go Fish), Bonded with Buffy in homecoming and so on...

The result is:
Buffy comparing her with Glory, Buffy saying Cordelia will be dead in Season 8 dream, Willow curious how she's actually helping Angel, Xander no mention, Season 8 not mentioned at all apart from the dream which is when she died in Season 5 of Angel.

Willow seems to have the closest relationship with Cordelia but the rest, nothing.

What do you guys think about this?

 

[Blaze]

I don't think she's talked about that negatively for her time on BtVS. Unless we're talking about s1, where she was pretty awful. Past s1, she certainly wasn't best friends with the Scoobies, and the frenemies thing was certainly mutual, but deep down I think they were highschool friends. Key word being highschool, which explains why the friendship didn't go much beyond that. I don't think Cordy wanted to be friends with any of them, and neither did the Scoobies, and it just sort of happened and it worked for those 3 years. No, they were never close friends with her, and they made jokes about her based on some very real fact of who Cordy was in highschool. I think rightfully so, people like Cordy better on AtS because of her growth, and the Scoobies never got to see much of that, so it explains why they kept that mentality of highschool Cordy.

Also, I think we need to keep in mind that half of the reasons the Scoobies disliked Cordy, came from Cordy disliking them right back (or Cordy being nasty to them). Like I said, I think it was a frenemies friendship, but a friendship nonetheless.

 

[Robb Stark]

I think Cordelia is viewed somewhat uniquely (not negatively per say) in large part because she's a lot more realistic in her development than a lot of the Scoobies. Buffy and Xander don't really change all that much (Willow does). You can take either one of them from S1 and by S7 they're still very similar to their early-season counterparts. With Cordelia, she grows up and evolves, which is often what happens in real life.

 

[itssmiletime]

Cordelia honestly deserves every shred of negativity she gets for her time on BTVS, and the Scoobies don't owe her anything. She wasn't just 'negatively honest'- she was a flat out bully. Watch any scene with her in Choices- her making fun of Willow's academic success, taking advantage of Xander and Buffy's insecurities about their futures, and publicly humilating them. It's nasty and cruel.

And before Welcome To The Hellmouth, yeah, it's pretty clear she bullied Willow so much that it crippled her self worth and image.

Fans give her too much credit for 'getting out of her comfort zone'. In terms of research and helping with demon fighting? Well yeah, it is hard, and anyone who helps save the world, that is going to work in your favour. But actually, you know, going a day without being a bully or cruel? Yeah, you don't get balloons and cupcakes for not being a bully.

 

[SRMarx]

I like Cordelia as a character but I don't think it is unfair of the Scoobies to make light jabs at her. After all, Cordelia wasn't exactly the kindest person to the Scoobies. I think Cordelia was quite mean at times and that usually leaves a greater impact on a person than anything else.

I think as a viewer it is easy to see the whole context of Cordelia's character (especially since we have 'Angel' too) and as a result have a broader perspective, but the Scoobies only had a limited view. Sure Cordelia helped the Scoobies out a lot, but she didn't seem to treat or regard them too much better than she had before.

 

[Lyri]

I love Cordelia, I do, but at the same time, I think she if not 'deserved' what was said about her in BtVS, then at the very least it was the truth.

Cordelia WAS a bully. She said some HORRIBLE things about the Scoobies. Her talk with Buffy in 'When She Was Bad' wasn't actually about her being a good friend. She didn't like Buffy talking to her the same way Cordelia herself talked to everyone else. She didn't like being lowered to the same standard as the people she looked down on.

Even when she was dating Xander, she still felt like she was above everyone else.

And yes, she helped out the Scoobies, but that wasn't about friendship either. For the most part, she didn't want to be there for the meetings, always asking if she can leave. ('School Hard', 'Earshot')

But when it came down to the wire, Cordelia WAS there, not because she wanted to help out her friends, but because she knew helping out was the right thing to do for the world at large, and that was followed up on in AtS, when her selfless nature was explored more fully.

At the end of the day, I love Cordelia, I love everything about her, including her selfish time on BtVS, because it makes her more real.

 

[Kean]

I don't think anyone can deny how horribly Cordelia behaved in BTVS. She was a bully. Simple as that. However, she wasn't just that. There was an a lot going on with Cordelia. We see that when she opens up to Buffy in Out of Mind, Out of Sight. We know her parents, like Xander's and Willow's, were largely absent, if not borderline neglectful of her. And we also know that she didn't have anyone to share any of that with. I think that's part of the reason why she was drawn to the Scoobies. Nothing takes away the way she treated them, but I think it is important to look at the whole picture with her. Especially when the reality is, the Scoobies were consistently horrible to her too. I don't think who started it matters, they repeatedly laugh at, belittle, demean and talk down to Cordy. Just as she did to them. I really don't believe either party is morally superior in this situation.

 

[Robb Stark]

I think the broad writing off of Cordelia as a bully greatly oversimplifies her character. I have no problem with Buffy and the Scoobies doing it, because as was said above, they don't have the context the viewer does, but for the audience, to continue to detest her even after seasons of AtS seems a bit petty. Disliking the character is perfectly cool, but to hate a character for what they did in high school, without considering things like remorse (which she clearly exhibits on AtS) circumstance or personal development in the seasons since just seems strange to me. I mean, Willow is far more of a bully in S6, and she's an adult. Buffy is, by her own admission, a bully at Hemory before coming to Sunnydale. Do we hate her for that, and if not, why? Because we don't see much of it? Because she was younger at the time? Well, Cordelia grows up too.

 

[Icarium]

Especially when the reality is, the Scoobies were consistently horrible to her too. I don't think who started it matters, they repeatedly laugh at, belittle, demean and talk down to Cordy. Just as she did to them. I really don't believe either party is morally superior in this situation.

The difference is the Scoobies mostly insulted her in conversation between each other while Cordelia insulted them directly, usually when other students could hear and laugh at them too. And who started does matter in such situations, IMO. Willow and Xander would probably care very little for Cordelie one way or the other if she didn't go out of her way to regularly try to bully them.
Also, the Scoobies didn't act that way towards anyone else, while Cordelia was more than happy to bully any perceived "losers".
It didn't help that the writers couldn't seem to make up their minds if Cordelia was actually dumb and shallow or was just pretending to be. Usually it was the latter but there are scenes like in the Dark Age where she very stupidly neglects to consider Giles talking to the police as being connected to his odd behavior.

Buffy saying Cordelia will be dead in Season 8 dream

That was simply awful. Horrible thing to say even about a person you had never close to, let alone someone who was more or less your friend and died because she was trying to save human lives. Illogical too since Cordelia had stopped bullied Willow years before she died so Buffy could just have said "we are not in high any more, or something like that".

 

[Kean]

The difference is the Scoobies mostly insulted her in conversation between each other while Cordelia insulted them directly, usually when other students could hear and laugh at them too. And who started does matter in such situations, IMO. Willow and Xander would probably care very little for Cordelie one way or the other if she didn't go out of her way to regularly try to bully them.
Also, the Scoobies didn't act that way towards anyone else, while Cordelia was more than happy to bully any perceived "losers".
It didn't help that the writers couldn't seem to make up their minds if Cordelia was actually dumb and shallow or was just pretending to be. Usually it was the latter but there are scenes like in the Dark Age where she very stupidly neglects to consider Giles talking to the police as being connected to his odd behavior.

I don't want to get into a "who was the worst bully" conversation because well, that is a horrid conversation and literally no good comes of it. But the Scoobies did publicly insult Cordelia. Xander calls her a hooker, they insult her several times while she's in their company, Buffy calls her a moron... they gave back what she was dealing out.

Though, I do agree with you that the writers didn't have a damn clue if they wanted her to be as stupid as Harmony or to have layers.

 

[Himiko]

I don't think Cordelia and the Scooby gang were ever particularly close, other than with Xander during their relationship. Cordy isn't very pleasant to the Scoobies, they aren't very pleasant to her either. She's there because she knows about vampires, etc. (and openly acknowledges them), and she's there in a pinch, likely because it's the right thing to do, but they don't exactly have a close friendship.

Cordelia definitely grows up a lot and becomes a lot more likeable on AtS, but the only Scooby we see her still being in contact with is Willow (aside from Buffy's appearance in early S1), and even that doesn't seem to be a regular occurence. It's possible the rest of them haven't kept in touch with her at all, and because they were never that close to her, they only remember her as the shallow girl from high school. Similarly, she probably remembers Buffy and Xander pretty much as they were from high school.

The only other theory I've got is that Buffy possibly resents the fact that Cordelia is working with Angel, and it is her that gets to see him every day, hang out, share secrets and stories, being his friend, etc. Hence why Buffy makes most of the negative comments about Cordelia whilst Xander simply doesn't mention her. But honestly, I think it mostly just comes down to what they remember of her, and the fact that they were never that close to begin with.

 

[itssmiletime]

I think the broad writing off of Cordelia as a bully greatly oversimplifies her character. I have no problem with Buffy and the Scoobies doing it, because as was said above, they don't have the context the viewer does, but for the audience, to continue to detest her even after seasons of AtS seems a bit petty. Disliking the character is perfectly cool, but to hate a character for what they did in high school, without considering things like remorse (which she clearly exhibits on AtS) circumstance or personal development in the seasons since just seems strange to me. I mean, Willow is far more of a bully in S6, and she's an adult. Buffy is, by her own admission, a bully at Hemory before coming to Sunnydale. Do we hate her for that, and if not, why? Because we don't see much of it? Because she was younger at the time? Well, Cordelia grows up too.

I actually find Cordelia so different in ATS than Buffy The Vampire Slayer. Not just in terms of quality in characterisation, yet you can really tell the difference between her in City Of... and Graduation Day. Personally, my opinions on Cordelia in ATS and BTVS differ so much.

I think it's perfectly fine for anyone to hate a character for what they did in high school, especially if it's bullying. Willow still experiences the long time effects of bullying all throughout the show (her dream in restless, her line about what 'willow' she'd be in wrecked, etc). And importantly, it's- 'real'. It reminds people of their awful experiences in high school. And no understanding of the characters 'growth' is going to erase that.


Feeling remorse isn't good enough. Did she actually apologise, or try to make amends with the people she victimised? No. Willow did, and even though I wouldn't call her behaviours in S6 that of a bully, she did hurt people.

 

[Robb Stark]

I think it's perfectly fine for anyone to hate a character for what they did in high school, especially if it's bullying. Willow still experiences the long time effects of bullying all throughout the show (her dream in restless, her line about what 'willow' she'd be in wrecked, etc). And importantly, it's- 'real'. It reminds people of their awful experiences in high school. And no understanding of the characters 'growth' is going to erase that.

Feeling remorse isn't good enough. Did she actually apologise, or try to make amends with the people she victimised? No. Willow did, and even though I wouldn't call her behaviours in S6 that of a bully, she did hurt people.

Not good enough to whom? There are many people out there who, in their high school years, weren't the nicest. Many of these people grow up and change as they get older. To just hate, for years and years, these people, to not be able to forgive or move on, is very sad to me. I'm not trying to knock anyone, but if years after high school you still can't come to terms with people who gave you a hard time, then I genuinely feel bad for you. Obviously this isn't a one-size-fits-all solution, but I feel that there's something quite magnanimous about being able to rise above that type of stuff, to realize that, as is the case with Cordelia, people do grow, and that life does change us, oftentimes for the better. Making fun of someone's death, five years past high school, in light of everything Cordelia did, is pretty pathetic. STILL hating that much, not being capable of having the courage or the ability to let that hate go, is just sad. It isn't about who "deserves" it, Buffy and Willow are both responsible for so much death they hardly have the moral high-ground in ANY debate (and Willow doesn't exactly do much of anything in the way of reparations for her S6 meltdown).

And, as [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] said, it did cut both ways. Buffy and Xander were hardly gems to Cordelia in high school either.

 

[fitz1980]

Personally I think that Cordelia has one of the best character arcs of anybody in the 'verse. She started as a shallow bitchy "Mean Girls" type and over the course of several seasons became a selfless hero who wanted to help others.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]

I think that you are underestimating the severity of trauma caused by bullying. Bullying is not something that ends with high school, victims of such abuse can feel the consequences for decades, some never heal. So tell me, why should they forgive when they still suffer?

Willow is a textbook example. She still suffers from body image issues in season 6, that's on Cordy and her gang. Her self-esteem issues, self-control issues, her emotional outbursts - that's a consequence of what she went through as a kid.

Proud member of We Hate Cordelia club here by the way, got a badge and all.

 

[Robb Stark]

I see what you're saying, and I understand the point. I just don't think it's entirely fair to judge someone for life for being a bitch at 15 or 16. When does it end? When Cordelia is 25? When she's 30? When she's in the grave? Clearly not. So my question becomes, why? What does it serve to keep hating THAT strongly? Does it do the victim any good? Does it do anyone any good?

Of all the heinous things the Scoobies do over the years that are effectively swept under the rug, Cordelia's actions in high school are not exactly at the top of the "worst" list.

 

[itssmiletime]

Not good enough to whom? There are many people out there who, in their high school years, weren't the nicest. Many of these people grow up and change as they get older. To just hate, for years and years, these people, to not be able to forgive or move on, is very sad to me. I'm not trying to knock anyone, but if years after high school you still can't come to terms with people who gave you a hard time, then I genuinely feel bad for you. Obviously this isn't a one-size-fits-all solution, but I feel that there's something quite magnanimous about being able to rise above that type of stuff, to realize that, as is the case with Cordelia, people do grow, and that life does change us, oftentimes for the better. Making fun of someone's death, five years past high school, in light of everything Cordelia did, is pretty pathetic. STILL hating that much, not being capable of having the courage or the ability to let that hate go, is just sad. It isn't about who "deserves" it, Buffy and Willow are both responsible for so much death they hardly have the moral high-ground in ANY debate (and Willow doesn't exactly do much of anything in the way of reparations for her S6 meltdown).

And, as [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] said, it did cut both ways. Buffy and Xander were hardly gems to Cordelia in high school either.

It's not good enough for me and it shouldn't be good enough for anyone. It's not certainly good enough for the victims who feel the effects of bullying decades on. Bullying is never about 'not being the nicest' or 'making a mistake'- it's the choice an individual makes consistently to torment and be cruel to an individual. And for that, we must have standards over what is and what isn't acceptable. I'm not comfortable pinning ribbons on Cordelia for 'growing' when really- you are no longer a bully? Meeting the standards for basic human behavior won't make you a hero, or something admirable in my book.

Remorse doesn't equate to amends, something which Angel and Spike often found out quite in a brutal fashion. (btw, not saying Cordelia is the equivalent of a 200 year old vampire whose idea of a good time is massacring an orphanage) 'Forgiving' them doesn't erase the effects of bullying. What makes me so empathetic towards Willow is that she does, so heavily, carry the scars of the emotional torment that has been endured. If Willow or Buffy bullied someone that badly it's be singing at a different song.

I'm not denying that Willow and Buffy took part in snide comments to Cordelia. Yet, when measured out against Cordelia, Cordelia's comments were far worse- more savage, cruel and importantly- utterly pointless. When she approaches the Scoobies in Choices, her intent is purely to embarrass and hurt. Buffy expressed her insecurity regarding her future in Homecoming ("this is all I do") and Cordelia uses it against her ("this conversation is for people who have a future").

There are allowances for ages, of course- to a point. If a teenager accidentally speeds whilst driving- yeah, that can be dismissed as a one off and the person can get away with a warning or a demerit point loss. Yet with bullying, it's not a bad, hasty decision of a procrastinator at 11pm. They didn't make the choice once. They made that choice tens, or hundreds of times. And most teenagers aren't bullies like Cordelia. They don't actively go out of their way
to cause harm.

And yeah, I side with Evil UU on this. The victims don't have to forgive. They are the victims. So why are we placing expectations on them? They are well within their rights to hate them, especially when it comes to trauma. They don't get a choice to move on. Sure, it doesn't help. But it's not like they have a choice in all of this.

Willow doesn't do much in the way of reparations? Who actually apologised? Who left her friends for three months and actually got help? Who quit magic? But I'm not giving her balloons and chocolates. It is human standards of decency.

Of all the heinous things the Scoobies do over the years that are effectively swept under the rug, Cordelia's actions in high school are not exactly at the top of the "worst" list.

Unsure if you mean by the narrative or us, the fans, but I feel as if absolutely every single thing Willow has ever done has been heavily criticized by fans. From flaying Warren to having a crush on Xander- nothing by Willow is 'swept under the rug' by Buffyverse fans. In terms of the narrative of the show, it is, overall, notorious for the neglect of trauma, and being particularly one-sided in terms of viewpoints.

I don't particularly feel comfortable with ranking what is worse and what isn't- but I'll say that Cordelia's actions should be discussed and talked about, in depth. Due to the amount of Cordelia love I've seen- no objection really to the ATS posts, but when people love how she talks to Willow and Xander? Her loving her honesty in Sunnydale? Yeah, that I have a problem with.

 

[Icarium]

Of all the heinous things the Scoobies do over the years that are effectively swept under the rug, Cordelia's actions in high school are not exactly at the top of the "worst" list.

Yes, it would freaking weird to hate on Cordelia (or Harmony or that guy from Inca Mummy Girl who used to beat Xander up for years) and yet give a pass to like a dozen murders among your close friends and acquaintances, many of whom have one tried to even kill you (I mean, if you are Xander or Willow and refer to Anya or Spike or Angel or Faith).

Mind you, sometimes words do cut deeper than knives but my problem with Willow and Buffy being happy that Cordelia is death is that I never got the impression that they hated her that much once they got to know her. That line is a stupid joke that is ridiculously out of place and OOC. And I do think some fans tend to be too forgiving of characters that are bullies - for instance Alison of Pretty Little Liars is many times worse than Cordelia and a large portion of the fandom loves her anyway.

But the Scoobies did publicly insult Cordelia. Xander calls her a hooker, they insult her several times while she's in their company, Buffy calls her a moron... they gave back what she was dealing out.

That's not really what I meant, I was referring to insulting Cordelia while her friends were around to hear it, as opposed to only the Scoobies hearing it. I don't really recall this happening much.

 

[Robb Stark]

It's not good enough for me and it shouldn't be good enough for anyone. It's not certainly good enough for the victims who feel the effects of bullying decades on. Bullying is never about 'not being the nicest' or 'making a mistake'- it's the choice an individual makes consistently to torment and be cruel to an individual. And for that, we must have standards over what is and what isn't acceptable. I'm not comfortable pinning ribbons on Cordelia for 'growing' when really- you are no longer a bully? Meeting the standards for basic human behavior won't make you a hero, or something admirable in my book.

The trouble is that that hate is directed towards a personality that for all intents and purposes doesn't exist anymore. And to say that Cordelia just met "the standards for basic human behavior" is more than an understatement.

Remorse doesn't equate to amends, something which Angel and Spike often found out quite in a brutal fashion. (btw, not saying Cordelia is the equivalent of a 200 year old vampire whose idea of a good time is massacring an orphanage) 'Forgiving' them doesn't erase the effects of bullying. What makes me so empathetic towards Willow is that she does, so heavily, carry the scars of the emotional torment that has been endured. If Willow or Buffy bullied someone that badly it's be singing at a different song.

I say this from personal experience, please don't underestimate the power of forgiveness. It's not always appropriate, but when it is, it helps you just as much as the other person. I didn't mean to give the impression that everyone should be forgiven for everything, but that in certain cases, it does help. And not just the person who was the bully. I can only really speak for myself, but having the ability to forgive someone, even when they didn't truly deserve it, helped ease a few scars of my own.

There are allowances for ages, of course- to a point. If a teenager accidentally speeds whilst driving- yeah, that can be dismissed as a one off and the person can get away with a warning or a demerit point loss. Yet with bullying, it's not a bad, hasty decision of a procrastinator at 11pm. They didn't make the choice once. They made that choice tens, or hundreds of times. And most teenagers aren't bullies like Cordelia. They don't actively go out of their way
to cause harm.

So Buffy at Hemory...we're just writing her off as unforgivable then? After all, she herself says she was worse than Cordelia.

I get your point here, I do. But this implies that the ability to change is meaningless, and if that truly is what you're trying to say (forgive me if I'm interpreting it incorrectly, because I very well could be), then I'm sorry. I really am.

And yeah, I side with Evil UU on this. The victims don't have to forgive. They are the victims. So why are we placing expectations on them? They are well within their rights to hate them, especially when it comes to trauma. They don't get a choice to move on. Sure, it doesn't help. But it's not like they have a choice in all of this.

I should clarify. Maybe expectation is the wrong word for this. What I meant to say was that after witnessing how much Cordelia has changed, how much she has helped the world and some of it's greatest heroes, and after growing up a lot herself, if Willow (and especially Buffy, who really wasn't all that "tormented" by Cordelia) can't find a place to put the past at rest after all that time, then I pity her. It's not a character indictment, it just makes me feel down. I mean that honestly.

You're right, they are "within their rights" to keep hating, absolutely. But what's the point? Hate like that isn't good for you. It brings nothing but corruption and further pain. It may not seem like it, but you (the proverbial you) CAN let at least some of that hate go. The trouble is that a lot of people either don't know how or are afraid to try.

Willow doesn't do much in the way of reparations? Who actually apologised? Who left her friends for three months and actually got help? Who quit magic? But I'm not giving her balloons and chocolates. It is human standards of decency.

Well...Willow dropped out of her rehab before completing it and didn't quit magic.

I don't particularly feel comfortable with ranking what is worse and what isn't

Very fair. I'll refrain from that as much as possible.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]

Does it do the victim any good?

Yes. Victims of bullying often blame themselves for being bullied. It's showed wonderfully in "The Pack" when Willow blames herself for how possessed Xander treats her ( Or maybe there's something wrong with me ) and that is devastating. Hate helps put the blame where it belongs, motivates and shields, it's a survival mechanism. Willow doesn't cry her eyes out ( anymore? ) after Cordelia harasses her because it's Cordelia - a stupid bitch.

When does it end?

When the victim heals and does not need it anymore. Willow still suffers and because of how long-term bullying alters stress response it might always affect her. And Willow was lucky, she found people who loved and nurtured her - Xander, Oz and Buffy who is just absolutely incredible in how she takes care of her in season 1 and beyond.