Scooby Gang & Cordelia

[Blaze]

I've been fallowing the discussion closely and I must say I agree with both sides for different points (made by itssmiletime, Robb and EVILUU).

All this talk has made me think though, do the Scoobies and Cordelia really hate each other as much as everyone is making it seem. I won't deny that Cordy bullied Willow and the group and that there is some animosity there, but they did let her into their gang, something they didn't have to do. And before someone says that they were intimidated into doing it or something along those lines, I think after Buffy's arrival, the whole group became more outspoken and found the courage not only to fight demon but to stand up for themselves (Willow deleting Cordelia's files for example). If they hated her that much I don't think they would have tolerated her being there in their group for 3 years.

Her dating Xander surely had something to do with her inclusion, but she continued hanging out with them even after the break up. Maybe it was out of duty for both parties, but honestly if they hated her that much they could have done without her all together.

 

[Robb Stark]

You know what is my favorite fictional example of what I've been talking about? Peter Parker.

For years Peter was tormented by Flash Thompson. He was one of the original primary antagonists of the comic series. As time progressed and they both left high school and entered university, the two both move on from their hostility in high school (largely because Flash really matures and grows up, similar to Cordelia) and actually become very good friends. Flash becomes a groomsman at Peter's wedding to Mary-Jane and as time marches on Flash eventually becomes Peter's best friend outside of his costume as Spider-Man. Peter is able to see that Flash has changed, that he genuinely feels bad about the way he acted in high school, and there are a few great moments where it's clear that Peter's ability to forgive Flash gives him peace as well.

And before anyone asks, Spider-Man has ALWAYS used Peter's high school experiences as a major part of his current character. He frequently references and reflects on his past. The Ultimate Spider-Man comic line, which is a more modern retelling of the Spider-Man mythos, follows a very familiar pattern, and Flash's story is fleshed out more.

That is a perfect example, in fiction, of the positivity forgiveness can have, and how it helps not just the bully, but the victim as well. That's a hell of a lot more powerful than holding on to hate. A hell of a lot more.

 

[thetopher]

Having folowed both arguements on this thread, I too see both sides. I was never truely a fan of Cordelia on Buffy, she was bitchy, spoiled and pretty much there to supply some very funny lines. Yes, she was a bully to the Scoobies (Willow especially), but when they all start going through upsetting and scary experiences together are they really going to be upset by Cordelia's jibes anymore?
The Scoobies have each other, and I know from experience having close friends makes bullying feel about a hundred times less bad.
As for Cordelia atoning and apologising to the Scoobies, does anybody actually apologise for there actions. Willow does, Angel does (to Giles, I think), Faith tries to apologise to Buffy. But does ensoulled Spike ever apologise to anyone other than Buffy?
I'm just not sure how important an actual apology is?
As for making amends, Cordelia puts herself in danger plenty of times and, especially on Angel, has no real reason to. Well, okay, there's the whole 'needs a job' aspect but still...
If the viewer can see the character atone for their actions, even if its not to those they wronged, then most viewers give them a pass. I also suspect seeing them suffer for these actions is also part of it. Cordelia's painful visions that put her in hospital change her, Angel and Spike tend to get tortured a lot (or maybe so that's so they can be shown shirtless...), Faith gets destroyed by the Beast and kind of humiliated. All the characters suffer and are seen to suffer for the bad stuff they did. (Yes, I know every Buffyverse characters has bad stuff happen to them, but in the cases above the pain and suffering seem more intense- but maybe thats just me)

One final thing, does anybody find the Angel episode 'Birthday' insulting to her character continuity, because, apparently, if Cordelia hadn't met up with Angel, gained the visions and started helping people, she would've gotten her own tv show and would've been just as nice as ever.
Of course she would.🙄

 

[Xin Rong]

I personally love Cordelia, and at there are times that her bullying nature does really p*** me off, even if we know that it is some kind of defense mechanism.

I agree with the post above, bullying and any kind of abuse in earlier life, can have a very long lasting, or even permanent effect. It is for this reason, that I think Willow, and only Willow, has the right to comment on Cordy negatively, even if she has redeemed herself.

Buffy and Xander were not too dissimilar from Cordy at times, she was just more open about it.

Children/Teenagers can be cruel, but if Willow could get past Cordy's meanness then I don't think anyone else has the right to bear a grudge.

 

[chasesummers]

*Cordelia: "Am I a bad person? Am I just a horrible person? Because I know I can be snippy sometimes." - The Vision Thing

*''Cordelia:... I was the ditziest bitch in Sunnydale, could have had any man I wanted. Now I'm all superhero-y and the best action I can get is an invisible ghost who's good with the Loohfah." - Waiting In Wings

*''Angel: "No, you're not listening! Cordelia is not a champion. She is a rich girl from Sunnydale who likes to play superhero. She doesn't have what it takes to do this! Don't the Powers get that? Stop whispering and listen to me, damn it! She's weak." - Birthday

*Lilah: "So? You know me."
Cordelia: "Please, I was you - with better shoes." - Billy

These few scenes I remembered here shows that she acknowledges what she ''was'' and the harm she did and this can also leave a scar in the bully just as the one being bullied. I know this personally, when you know better you can feel bad or very terrible for what you did but... you can either choose to be a victim and suffer all your life or else you grow and evolve into what you want to manifest, like Cordelia did, she knew helping the helpless was what meant most to her.

Whatever happened with her and the Scoobies doesn't matter anymore, past is past but Cordelia cares. Comparing:

Cordelia:Ever since you've come back from your grief trip I can tell that something's not right. And, and *obviously* it's not. - Buffy's - dead, and I don't mean to diminish that. I miss her too... - Heartthrob

VS

Buffy:One day (Cordelia) will be dead - After These Messages... We'll Be Right Back!

The bullied becomes the bully, there's nobody to blame because it's up to our individual self if we keep this burden or learn to make something useful out of it like understanding someone who's being bullied saying ''yeah I've been there'' or like Cordelia said ''I've been you''.

If you can't understand or relate to a character you don't need to create hate groups, you're just re-created what you suffered from - bullying = hate.

I'm proud of Cordelia.
I just answered my own question 😉 It's simply about moving on and letting go, something I hope one day the Scoobies will do because they are wonderful characters.
This is my view.

 

[thetopher]

Re: the above comment made by Buffy. In her defence she was in a weird time-travel, dream-sequencey, timey-whimey thing, and I'm not sure she was being entirely serious. In fact the whole episode/issue was very surreal and Buffy wasn't really acting like herself- she was acting like none of it mattered. Hence the callousness.
I'm sure Buffy, Willow and Xander feel bad that Cordelia is dead (actually I would've liked to know how they found that out? It's one of the holes between Season's 7 and 8 that needs to be filled.)
Anyway, we all know Cordelia is a higher-being now, I doubt she cares what people say.🙂

 

[Blaze]

Cordelia:Ever since you've come back from your grief trip I can tell that something's not right. And, and *obviously* it's not. - Buffy's - dead, and I don't mean to diminish that. I miss her too... - Heartthrob

VS

Buffy:One day (Cordelia) will be dead - After These Messages... We'll Be Right Back!

I keep reading about this comparison, but in all honestly I don't think it's fair at all. The second quote (although awful) is so incredibly out of context when quoted like that. I doubt any of the Scoobies actually wanted Cordelia dead.

 

[chasesummers]

I don't believe Buffy and her friends want Cordelia dead at all, they aren't that mean, I still feel they care about her somehow, even if it's a little.

It just felt like one of those comments like "she got hers!"

 

[thetopher]

Thinking about Cordelia and Willow's relationship while watching Angel S1 and 2, and they're seen talking to each other on the phone a couple of times. Willow helps Cordy decrypt some computer files in...'Blind Date' I think (with Willow doing her own code cracking in 'Primeval') and they talk again in 'Disharmony'.
I got the impression that this isn't an unusual thing with them and that they maybe keep each other updated with stuff (Wesley working for Angel now, Willow being 'gay now' and so on.) also its Willow that goes to LA to tell Angel about Buffy's death, and then comes to help in Orpheus.
Willow chats to (evil) Cordelia just fine, no real sign of resentment from her or anything.