Scott Allie replies to fan response to issue # 34....

[white avenger]

Okay, first off, boycotting Season 8 is nothing short of cutting off our noses to spite our faces. It won't accomplish anything other than that we will miss the final arc of a season that we, at least most of us, have followed with bated breath from Episode 1 right up through the present (And I don't know about you younger folks, but at my age, bating my breath for this long has been sheer torture, and I'm not gonna give up now that the end is in sight) I agree that referring to shipper names as "adorable" is most certainly condescending, but we do have to remember that Mr Allie is, beyond all else, an outsider. This is a job to him, and while he MIGHT appreciate, even admire, the creativity and talent of the people responsible for Buffy and all of the members of her universe, he is almost certainly NOT a fan. His interest in the Buffyverse is professional, not emotional, the way that ours is.

As for the objection to the sex and nudity in the issue, my personal objections were because not everyone reading them were adults. Also, it was contrary to everything that has ever been established about the Bangel relationship. At least to me, Bangel was far more about romantic love than sheer animal lust. Buffy and Angel, even in "I Will Remember You," when there was no reason for restraint of any sort, were never about missing the bed again or tearing down houses. Season 34 almost seems as though the writers are trying to show that Bangel can be even more violent in their sex than Spuffy ever was. And then Allie calls what Buffy and Angel did "sleeping together." I think that we can all agree that "sleep" was about the only thing that they DIDN'T do. Even at the end, I think that it was more collapsing from exhaustion than sleep.

 

[Mumrik]

Is it really expected though? Such vitriol and down right nastiness? I'm as passionate about these characters as a fan can be and still feel he is justified.

OK, I haven't really seen any of that so I wasn't judging that. It's probably naive to assume that everybody stays within the lines of what's decent. I was mainly saying this from the "disappointed in the character development of this story" angle.

I certainly agree that the piece is hardly the prime example of correspondence between the voice of a franchise and its fans but I can't say I don't appreciate the sentiment or don't think it needed to be said.

I agree. It's mainly the tone of the piece that rubs me the wrong way, I certainly see where he's coming from.

 

[Kean]

OK, I haven't really seen any of that so I wasn't judging that. It's probably naive to assume that everybody stays within the lines of what's decent. I was mainly saying this from the "disappointed in the character development of this story" angle.

Ah, gotcha. We got our wires crossed a bit there 😉 🙂

 

[dan k]

I don't read season 8 but i can see how people could have got quite angry reading what Mr Allie wrote. The "Lets get back to planet Earth bit is especially condescending, could have worded himself a lot better. If he isn't careful he could alienate the fanbase.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I don't read season 8 but i can see how people could have got quite angry reading what Mr Allie wrote. The "Lets get back to planet Earth bit is especially condescending, could have worded himself a lot better. If he isn't careful he could alienate the fanbase.

A lot of me wants to quit reading, too. On one hand, though, I don't think I could. The suspense would kill me. I'd end up buying the issues, anyway.

Now, I DO understand where Allie is coming from, but I definitely think he could have worded it better. FAR better. The man's an editor. Surely he can write better than that.

My main issues with his response are the assumption that all Bangel fans were happy with the latest developments, and calling shippers "adorable." Also, his line "back to planet Earth." I find it difficult to see how everyone could NOT interpret that as condescending.

I think white avenger makes a great point, though; Allie is not a fan. His involvement is professional. He does not have a emotional investment in this universe or in these characters like we do, hence he doesn't understand and probably never will our "passion" and "intensity."

I don't know...he just makes all sound like a bunch of whiny, over-zealous fan girls/boys who are unhappy with every aspect of the story. This is not true! At LEAST he's introspective enough to know what we're upset about Buffy "sleeping" with Twilight because of all of the "horror" he's created. I sure hope he knows it's not about our "adorable" shipping "faction."

Where's BuffyverseFan? I wanna see his response...

And in agreement with WA; Bangel did not "SLEEP" together: they engaged in graphic, gratuitous space-sex in every possible position known to man.

 

[citiegal17]

I'm not sure how he is surprised by the outrage, Buffy a feminist icon, decided to have sex with someone who is responsible for the death of slayers. The ships have very little to do with the way it potrays Buffy, as well as devaluing the lifes of the potentionals. If Angel isn't what we think he is then why does he thinks it is an acceptable course of action to actively participate in the slayer hatred, and slaughter, that still makes him a traitor at least if he has free will which I still think he does? Simply pretending to be evil is not that much different than being evil sorry, the end result is the same and good intentions are not worth much, I judge someone by their actions not intentions but thats just me. Angel has already proved his okay with killing innocents in the name of greater good, and still calls himself a hero. Give Me a Break, that makes no better than a villain in my book, and no moral ambiquity in this case is on the same level of evil, I highly doubt there wasn't a better course of action than one he choose, if you choose to order to have someone killed then are responsible for their murder whether you killed them yourself or not, but don't say it makes you any better than someone who is responsible all the killing it the first place, it doesn't jive sorry.

I never meant to come off as simply saying Angel boo all the time, this is simply meant to come off as my interpretation of the text, not simply Angel bashing, the whole context of what was happening is somewhat ridiculous. I'm not an Angel hater so don't take it that way, in the past his character is someone I really admired, and he was a real hero. I don't blame the character for how he is displayed.

 

[Kean]

My main issues with his response are the assumption that all Bangel fans were happy with the latest developments, and calling shippers "adorable." Also, his line "back to planet Earth." I find it difficult to see how everyone could NOT interpret that as condescending.

I read that as sarcastic. I don't know if that makes it better or worse for those who are offended by this piece. I'm fairly sure he sees shippers as anything *but* adorable.

I don't know...he just makes all sound like a bunch of whiny, over-zealous fan girls/boys who are unhappy with every aspect of the story.

Well, you read certain sites and that's exactly what you will find, or at the very least, that's what they come off as. It's not representative of the entire fandom but there is certainly a section of fans that fit quite nicely into that category. At least I think there is.

Maybe if I didn't trust the story as much as I do I would be angrier about what has been going on in the comic. I haven't lost respect/hope, whatever you want to call it, for this season yet, so to me the reaction has felt overpowering and oppressive.

 

[Don]

I don't see any problem with Scott Allie's response. You know how ridiculous it sounds when people say things like "bennifer" and "brangelina?" People on ET and similar shows abbreviate names like kristen stewart and robert patinson to "k stew" and "r pats." It's stupid and it drives me insane (and probably lots of other people), and celebrity is discussed in such a pseudo-important manner that it sounds ridiculous to us (us = me and people that agree with me). "bennifer is out buying some new clothes today, and it looks like they've found an enormous sale!" nobody cares, so we automatically think things like, "ok, back on planet earth..."

Saying "back on planet earth..." doesn't mean that people who care about this stuff are idiots, it just means that they care about it to an extent that they assume it's more important than it really is/important to more people than it really is. I don't want to say obsessive because I'm a spuffy myself, but I realize that even saying, "I'm a spuffy" sounds every bit as ridiculous as saying "i'm a brangelina."

Saying, "back on planet earth..." is the only sane thing to say in the face of such incredible fandom. More casual readers of buffy s8 (the majority of my friends that read it) don't get wrapped up in the shipping aspects of things because it's just a made-up story to them, the same way brad and angelina are just media-hyped spectacles to me. I know some people that cateogorize themselves as "brangelinas" or whatever like that, and i think that it's stupid that they even care about it that much (or at all), but I certainly don't think that they're stupid people who need to get their priorities in check. I just think they need to come back to planet earth.

P.S. - the only reason I cringe even the slightest about the issue's nudity is that a few years back the TPB "Long Way Home" was nominated for a kid's choice award on nickelodeon, making it obvious that an underage readership is very much in existence. On the other hand, 11 year olds sext each other all the time, so maybe it's time everybody else catches up with 2010.

 

[Kelsey]

Saying, "back on planet earth..." is the only sane thing to say in the face of such incredible fandom. More casual readers of buffy s8 (the majority of my friends that read it) don't get wrapped up in the shipping aspects of things because it's just a made-up story to them, the same way brad and angelina are just media-hyped spectacles to me. I know some people that cateogorize themselves as "brangelinas" or whatever like that, and i think that it's stupid that they even care about it that much (or at all), but I certainly don't think that they're stupid people who need to get their priorities in check. I just think they need to come back to planet earth.

P.S. - the only reason I cringe even the slightest about the issue's nudity is that a few years back the TPB "Long Way Home" was nominated for a kid's choice award on nickelodeon, making it obvious that an underage readership is very much in existence. On the other hand, 11 year olds sext each other all the time, so maybe it's time everybody else catches up with 2010.

Oh, God, can I never think about 11 year olds sexting each other ever? Yuck.

Anyway, I see where you're coming from. Even here on BB, which is one of the gentler boards I've seen (hah), I have to take a step back from arguments and go, "Right, they're characters. It's not real. Now go study for your finals." It does tend to seem more important than it is sometimes, and it's good for fans to "come back down to earth."

That said, it was still completely, absolutely condescending. Yes, shippers can be insane. Yes, it can seem overwhelming. But like others have said, remaining professional and respectful of the readers who pay your salary is still preferable over talking to your readers like they're children.

 

[Flannen]

I don't 'read' the comics but I do keep up with the plots and have been grateful to the members who have posted bits from the most recent comics who have helped to keep me in the loop. 🙂

But I still wanted to say that any animosity towards Scott Allie about the story itself and the words in the OP is pretty unnecessary. Every one of us has read the words and and put our own tone over them. Unless we can see it straight from his mouth and hear the tone (which maybe we can? Is there a video about?) then I think it's unfair to go calling him names and such. Personally, I think his comment about 'planet earth' was anything but condescending. He is part of the Buffy fandom and culture and I think it was merely a comment about how huge it is to everyone. I didn't feel like I was being spoken to as a child, I thought he was simply trying to wrap his head around something as intense as 'shipping which he just doesn't get and that's okay with me. I guess some people have read it as condescending, patronising, rude or whatever but I didn't at all.

And I'm totally with him on the whole 'porn' thing. Of course it isn't porn. As others have mentioned it is not worse than anything that has already been on the show. Sure you might not like what it's doing to the characters or the idea that Buffy willingly has sex with someone who has done all the those things but that doesn't make it porn.

 

[MinwaraYana]

Well, I don't think I'll boycott season 8, but I definitely won't buy the Twilight TPB.

but with no nipples, no genitals, I was surprised by the accusations of porn.

Just because it's under Angel's hand or behind the branches doesn't make it okay. Plus, I never knew about those positions till I read this issue. It is porn to me.

And I agree with WA. It's comics. Kids read comics and they can happen to read #34 any days.

There were a lot of fans who objected on other grounds, including legions of Spike fans who were as unhappy to see these two together as the Angel fans were satisfied. The recent storyline has shown me a whole new level of intensity in Buffy fans, and in particular the so-called “shipping” faction. For those that don’t know what that word means, and I only barely do, “ship” is short for relationship, and has to do with fans fixated on one relationship over another, or over all others. “Ships” get adorable names, like Bangel and Spuffy, and the fans, or “shippers,” become identified as Bangels or Spuffys. Anyway, back on planet earth …

He can't assume it like that. It has nothing to do with the ships or shippers. Almost every Bangel fans I know didn't like this issue. And I had to ask the ones who likes it "How could you be happy with it!? Are you nuts?". 😀

There were plenty of readers that just didn’t want to see Buffy sleeping with the guy in the mask, no matter who he was, because he was behind all this horror -- but hopefully next issue will make it more clear that that’s not exactly who Angel is.

Like WA said, it's not "sleeping". And yeah, that's the reason we don't like it. Glad he ended his response in better way than when he started. And here is the promise we'll find out what exactly is going on in the next issue. I'll just wait and see. 🙂

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

From the Editor
Scott Allie, Editor
Accusations of Porn
Updated: 04/28/2010

"Sure, it pushed the limits, but with no nipples, no genitals, I was surprised by the accusations of porn.

Surprised, seriously? While I didn't make this accusation, anyone who has seen the show should see how completely out of character this issue was for the people and series at large.[/quote]

There were plenty of readers that just didn't want to see Buffy sleeping with the guy in the mask, no matter who he was, because he was behind all this horror -- but hopefully next issue will make it more clear that that's not exactly who Angel is.

That's where I am. And #35 better, or DH is risking losing an awful lot of fans.

But for many different reasons, the reaction to Buffy #34 was strong, to say the least. It's great to see such passion from the readers. I'm sorry we're not exactly pleasing everyone, but we certainly seem to be keeping you interested.

imo, Allie's way off base here. Personally, for me it's not engrossing so much as akin to watching a train-wreck.

Up until recently, I was a huge fan of the comics, and even defended Allie's other dumb statements, but I think the odds of Dark Horse losing me as a fan come issue #40 is about 65%...

 

[white avenger]

We keep hearing how #35 is going to explain everything, make everything right, reveal who the REAL Big Bad is, and just about every other claim short of it curing the common cold. but I frankly simply CAN NOT envision any possible excuse for Angel to be associated with a group, even if he isn't their real leader, who is responsible for the death and mayhem that Twilight has caused. Granted, Angel seems to have no qualms about making major decisions for others, without either their knowledge or permission, decisions that will literally alter the course of their very lives, on the excuse that it is "for the greater good," but to the best of my knowledge, he has only killed one hero, Drogyn, to advance his plans. To me, if this really is, as we have been assured many times, the REAL Angel, in complete control of his faculties, under neither thrall or evil spell, then he has stepped so far over the line that he can never return. And if Buffy cannot see that, if she is that blinded by her hormones, so easily won over by an outlandish story and a little light affects, then she is right across that same line, and there can be no possible redemption for either one of them.

 

[LyteHouse]

Allie isn't doing himself any favours here by acting like an asshole towards fans.

I didn't like Issue #34.

And I'm not a shipper.

I didn't like it because it read like nonsensical sub-par slash-fiction horseshit written by a thirteen year old.

 

[Kean]

We keep hearing how #35 is going to explain everything, make everything right, reveal who the REAL Big Bad is, and just about every other claim short of it curing the common cold. but I frankly simply CAN NOT envision any possible excuse for Angel to be associated with a group, even if he isn't their real leader, who is responsible for the death and mayhem that Twilight has caused. Granted, Angel seems to have no qualms about making major decisions for others, without either their knowledge or permission, decisions that will literally alter the course of their very lives, on the excuse that it is "for the greater good," but to the best of my knowledge, he has only killed one hero, Drogyn, to advance his plans. To me, if this really is, as we have been assured many times, the REAL Angel, in complete control of his faculties, under neither thrall or evil spell, then he has stepped so far over the line that he can never return. And if Buffy cannot see that, if she is that blinded by her hormones, so easily won over by an outlandish story and a little light affects, then she is right across that same line, and there can be no possible redemption for either one of them.

I'm pretty much convinced it is a Cordy/Jasmine situationa and that he has been taken under Twilight's control.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I think he needs a PR lesson, and maybe to take a step back from the fandom for a while, but I don't think he meant to be bitchy (btw, I think he was a little bit bitchy, not being a asshole).

But posts like these are why I think a die hard Buffy fan should be working closely with the comic, who can stop continuity errors (like the Warren's misstakes) and take a look at statements before they're said, since a fan who's a part of the fandom could "edit" the editor 😉

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Oh man, oh man... interesting.

Well I totally agree with Scott Allie. We're all crazy, think of the amount of time we've spent in arguments over did Spike attempt to rape Buffy, Was Angel and Buffy's love only a first love, if you were to look at us from the outside we are a bunch of crazy people.

I always think people that are really into stuff are odd, like super Christian Christians, extremest Muslims, Star Trek fans that dress up and go to conventions, I'm sure there's some group everyone has judged as odd or weired, it's just natural. And we are no different. So for him to say back on planet earth is totally justifiable as we're not discussing something on planet earth, we're discussing something in the Buffyverse.

I think, as well, that allot of fans have been in he wrong in how they are handling the comics.

To be honest it makes me think realistically the Buffy comic can't work, and that Buffy would have to be on TV, because people expect the same results they got with the TV show as they do with the comics, which is ridiculous.

People have been condemning Angel, threating to stop reading (I don't men you Joan, your reason to conciser to stop reading is valid), and saying there is no way back, or everything about the comics is all out of character.

For one thing, we don't know whats going on with Angel yet, so people need to put their pitchforks down and get the full answer before they jump.
For the people who say there is no way back, think of the characters from the show, we have a Witch who killed people and tried to end the world who we accepted back into the group, we have a vampire that IMO attempted to rape Buffy who went on to be a possible love interest.

And for the people calling in porn! Are you for real? Cuz I don't conciser it any worse then Spike and Buffy in season 7, we saw Spike getting a blowjob from the Buffy bot in Season 5, and Buffy unzipping Spikes pants and then riding him.
The only difference I can see is this was when it was Spike it was ok, but Angel, well thats just a travesty!
(Personally I agree with WA, I think Buffy/Angel was more romantic then what we got, but I don't have a problem with the images)

Saying 'Kids read comics, they shouldn't be this porno-like', is actually extremely condescending, kids can read comics, but they don't go into a shop and pick up Buffy, if they do it's not up to Darkhorse or the Buffy writers to censor it for children, it's not aimed at children, thats up to the government to impose a rating on comics, and then the local shop to enforce it. TWAF lists the comic as 13+, the DVD's were 15? (Here in Ireland anyway)

Umm... I haven't met ANYONE who's 'satisfied' with this story. ESPECIALLY Angel fans.
They completely ruined 'our' Angel. Why would anyone be satisfied with that?

I think what he's referring to, is that Buffy was evolved and Angel was identified as her true other half so thats why this Twilight thing happened to him to, and not, to say Spike. I for one am very happy with that. Even when this Twilight thing ends badly for them, we know have it that Buffy and Angel are each others other halves.

I'm not sure how he is surprised by the outrage, Buffy a feminist icon, decided to have sex with someone who is responsible for the death of slayers.

Yes, just like she did with Spike, who had killed 2 slayers, but this only seems to suddenly be a travesty now that it's Angel.
]

I don't know...he just makes all sound like a bunch of whiny, over-zealous fan girls/boys who are unhappy with every aspect of the story. This is not true! At LEAST he's introspective enough to know what we're upset about Buffy "sleeping" with Twilight because of all of the "horror" he's created. I sure hope he knows it's not about our "adorable" shipping "faction."

But we are a bunch of whiny, over-zealous fan girls/boys?

From his perspective. Outrage rings much loader then complements, so I'm sure all their hearing is "I don't like this that and the other"

(To be honest thats mostly what I've heard too)

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

We keep hearing how #35 is going to explain everything, make everything right, reveal who the REAL Big Bad is, and just about every other claim short of it curing the common cold. but I frankly simply CAN NOT envision any possible excuse for Angel to be associated with a group, even if he isn't their real leader, who is responsible for the death and mayhem that Twilight has caused. Granted, Angel seems to have no qualms about making major decisions for others, without either their knowledge or permission, decisions that will literally alter the course of their very lives, on the excuse that it is "for the greater good," but to the best of my knowledge, he has only killed one hero, Drogyn, to advance his plans. To me, if this really is, as we have been assured many times, the REAL Angel, in complete control of his faculties, under neither thrall or evil spell, then he has stepped so far over the line that he can never return. And if Buffy cannot see that, if she is that blinded by her hormones, so easily won over by an outlandish story and a little light affects, then she is right across that same line, and there can be no possible redemption for either one of them.

If it has anything to do with The Shanshu (or "Shaaaaaanshuuuuu" as Hamilton called it) Prophecy as someone (maybe AndrewCrossett?) suggested, I'd think it is an understandable excuse.

But I suspect it's something more along the lines of what Kean said here:

I'm pretty much convinced it is a Cordy/Jasmine situationa and that he has been taken under Twilight's control.

I look forward to finding out, anyway.

 

[frankie]

I think think that comic and television can be quite similar in story telling styles. For instance Angel: After the fall, the canon one, I loved. It felt like a good continuation of the show, and I would have loved to see it on television. Buffy Season 8 also works well as a continuation, but I would have stopped watching a long time go.
I think the idea of the show continuing in comic form is sound though, it's simply that tastes differ. Some people love it, some hate it. I'm the latter but I do think it should continue because a lot of fans want it to. Fans are what it really comes down to, I don't think Allie meant it to be a put down, but even the slightest hint of mockery at a community that is putting cash in his pocket, is always going to get an angry response.

 

[dan k]

It is all about perceptions in terms of what Mr Allie wrote. Yet i think even those people who aren't offended will see that he could have made his point a lot clearer in terms of how his worded his thoughts.