Scott Allie replies to fan response to issue # 34....

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

And for the people calling in porn! Are you for real? Cuz I don't conciser it any worse then Spike and Buffy in season 7, we saw Spike getting a blowjob from the Buffy bot in Season 5, and Buffy unzipping Spikes pants and then riding him.
The only difference I can see is this was when it was Spike it was ok, but Angel, well thats just a travesty!
(Personally I agree with WA, I think Buffy/Angel was more romantic then what we got, but I don't have a problem with the images)

Well, I for one have never called the issue "porn" (that I can remember, anyway) but I did think it was a little too blatant and gratuitous for my personal tastes. And yes, I did think it was OOC for Bangel.

Where I disagree with you is that it wasn't any worse then what we saw in the televised series. Sure, the Buffybot/Spike's escapades in the graveyard were graphic but she was a ROBOT, not the real Buffy, so there was a level of separation. In Season 6, we saw a lot of implication of sex (the blowjob in 'Gone', the sex in 'Smashed', etc) but no actual SEX - as we did in this issue. My whole point is that while this was obviously not something we as adults hadn't seen before in perhaps other comics/shows, it was unexpected. That's what threw us for a loop, I believe.

You're wrong about it being OK with Spike and not with Angel. It's more than OK for Buffy to engage in sex with Angel, the man she loves - but this is not Angel this is TWILIGHT the Big Bad of the season. Needless to say, it was shocking. We've now had time to digest it, and we're waiting to reserve judgment.

I agree what you are saying about others (outsiders) seeing us as "crazy." While I don't like that expression, I can totally attest to this. Today at work, I was attempting to explain to my co-worker all of this and why I was so upset - and he just looked at me like I was, well, crazy, lol. He didn't get it, but I think we SHOULD expect Allie to - after all, it's his job to edit this publication. I don't think it's too much to ask for him to have a good handle on the fandom. Surely, he should have know what 'shipping was before this.

Yes, just like she did with Spike, who had killed 2 slayers, but this only seems to suddenly be a travesty now that it's Angel.

You're wrong. That's not what it's about. For the record, if Spike had turned out to be Twilight, and all this was happening, I'd be mourning the loss of my favorite character. My Spike fan-girl goggles would be off, believe me. I know many of you think that we make concessions for Spike, but there are limits. If he were Twilight, I'd be saying the same thing.

From his perspective. Outrage rings much loader then complements, so I'm sure all their hearing is "I don't like this that and the other"

He should welcome criticism. It means we care.

(To be honest thats mostly what I've heard too)

Well, is there much to praise in Season 8? He honest.

 

[Willow-Tree]

The problem I had with #34 was that Buffy was totally defying EVERYTHING she believed in, all her morals, in order to f*** Angel mercilessly.

 

[GrimsWatcher]

People are sure angry lately. At the end of the day it is just a comic book, and I wasn't insulted by what Allie wrote. I guess I'm just not as invested as I used to be and I'm a little relaxed about it all. I still love Buffy, but I have a different attitude about the comics now, and for awhile.

It's amazing what still images and thought bubbles can do to us.

Sometimes I wish I could just let go of Buffy and move on. Show's been dead for 7 years. The actors moved on long long ago. But not me. And I don't think Whedon is really that invested in it anymore. He seems to have more interest in other projects lately.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

I had no objection to the sex in #34 on "porn" grounds... my problem was that it was being presented as something sexy, when in fact it was anything but. First, Buffy is going at it with someone who's done terrible things to her and her friends and people who relied on her for leadership. Second, it's not at all clear that Buffy is fully in control of her actions or feelings here, so there's a definite possible-rape factor. And third, what they're doing is destroying the world.

I know some writers use this kind of cognitive dissonance to create a sense of profound wrongness... has anyone seen "A Clockwork Orange," where Alex and his friends commit brutal rapes and beatings to the tune of beautiful classical music? But everything I've seen from Brad Meltzer and Scott Allie seems to suggest that "sexy" really is the effect they were going for.

(Interestingly, the artist, Georges Jeanty, has said that he found the whole thing creepy and disturbing. Seems even the creative team was split on how this issue affected them. I'd like to hear Joss tell what his intentions were with it, but I don't think that's likely anytime soon.)

 

[white avenger]

Kean agrees: I really don't see how sex and romance/loving relationship are mutually exclusive for B/A in this issue, even if we use the baser term of $%&$ing, that still doesn't negate an emotional resonance in the act, I don't get why it has to be either/or

What Buffy and Angel are doing in this issue are in no way different from either the final scenes in "Smashed," or the balcony scene in "Dead Things," except that it is much more graphic. In both cases, Buffy was taken advantage of when she was in a disoriented, confused, troubled state of mind, when the very weight of the world seemed to be crashing down on he. If "Smashed" was Spuffy at its worst, then #34 is Bangel at an even more degrading level. Hopefully, Joss will be able to find some way to straighten this mess out, but how he is going to do it is beyond me.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Well, is there much to praise in Season 8? He honest.

#1-20 weren't bad, in my book they were roughly a 2.5/5 as a whole, which isn't bad (even 1 isn't terrible, as 1 = Beer Bad).

But these last few arcs are around a 0.5 for me. Predators & Prey was a 0 in my book, and Retreat was a 1.5.

KEY:
1 = Beer Bad
3 = Average episode of Buffy
5 = Graduation Day

 

[Skytteflickan88]

BEG, I agree with a lot you say but:

Oh man, oh man... interesting.

Well I totally agree with Scott Allie. We're all crazy, think of the amount of time we've spent in arguments over did Spike attempt to rape Buffy,

There's people saying he didn't attempt to rape her? :O

So for him to say back on planet earth is totally justifiable as we're not discussing something on planet earth, we're discussing something in the Buffyverse.

Yes, it is something foreign to some people, but the entire tone of the statement was condescending since he seemed to be so weirded out by shippers and the back to earth part was the final nail in the coffin, since people often use that line to offend other people who they deem unreasonable.

Yes, just like she did with Spike, who had killed 2 slayers, but this only seems to suddenly be a travesty now that it's Angel.

That's not fair to say. I haven't read the comic in question per see, but I can honestly say that I hate that she slept with a murderer in season 6 and I hate that she's sleeping with one now. I think it was good for the season 6 story arc, but I hated it, and although I think this season 8 arc could turn out well too, I'm still outraged, so don't assume I'm angry just because it's Angel.

I don't believe you think that all fans think that, but that's how you put it.

But we are a bunch of whiny, over-zealous fan girls/boys?

I'm glad you used a question mark for that one, because I'm on occasion not whiny at all. :tongue3:

---------- Post added at 10:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 AM ----------

The problem I had with #34 was that Buffy was totally defying EVERYTHING she believed in, all her morals, in order to f*** Angel mercilessly.

Well, she did that in Season 6 too, with Spike. But then she was depressed and suicidal. Maybe she's not in her right mind now either? I haven't read past issue 30, but I aware of what has hapened, and it kind of seems like she had reason enough to just get off.

Now, if I see them cuddling afterwards, instead of her trying to kill him, I will have a problems with OCC issues.

Please tell my where weren't cuddling?

 

[white avenger]

That's not fair to say. I haven't read the comic in question per see, but I can honestly say that I hate that she slept with a murderer in season 6 and I hate that she's sleeping with one now.

Sex with Spike in Season 6 might even be more justifiable than sex with Angel in Season 8, considering that Spike was, at that time (arguably) a REFORMED murderer, of which she was completely aware, whereas, in Season 8, by all evidence, Angel is (undeniably) a REVERTED murderer. Buffy, at least the Buffy that we have known and loved for all these years, would be the very first one to recognize that fact, and her reunion with Angel would NEVER have been anything even slightly similar to what we have seen here. Her actions would be much more justifiable if she had not known beforehand that Angel was Twilight, AND that, for whatever reason, sex with him would not result, as it had previously, with the loss of his soul. She didn't know, she didn't ask, and, from what we have seen so far, she didn't care. That is NOT our Buffy.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

There's people saying he didn't attempt to rape her? :O

Don´t get even started with this again. She forgave him in season 7 so the AR is no longer an issue.

That's not fair to say. I haven't read the comic in question per see, but I can honestly say that I hate that she slept with a murderer in season 6 and I hate that she's sleeping with one now. I think it was good for the season 6 story arc, but I hated it, and although I think this season 8 arc could turn out well too, I'm still outraged, so don't assume I'm angry just because it's Angel.

I don't believe you think that all fans think that, but that's how you put it.

I never hated Spike! Sure he was evil but not like Angelus or Darla evil. Angelus made him to do what he had done back in the days but Spike decided to do his own thing and we all saw how he behaved when Angelus was back in Sunnydale.

After he was captured and tortured by Glory he realised he wasn´t a monster after all and he never could hurt Buffy like that. Getting tortured for someone who hates/dislikes you isn´t something you do if you you are a evil son of a b*tch.

I knew why Buffy slept with Spike in season 6 and i wasn´t disgusted at all. It was just a chain of events in her and his past and the whole heaven(i´m the only one who guessed it wasn´t really heaven?) and the return from the dead issue. She couldn´t feel anything at all but Spike was avaiable and she took the chance to feel something again. Wouldn´t you have done it too no matter the consequences?

Off topic: I´m in that position right now so i know exactly what i´m talking about and how Buffy felt. Don´t pity me i´m fine with it.

Spike as Twilight would be devastating for me and like i said many many posts before i would throw the comics into a blender and burn the rest after that.

I´m glad Spike wasn´t Twilight but i was really surprised Angel would fall for that so easily. Willpower anyone? Did he thought about Connor,Cordy,Wesley and all his other friends when he put on that ridicilous costume?

I´m curious how this will all pan out but i still don´t like the Twilight issue.

 

[white avenger]

It was just a chain of events in her and his past and the whole heaven(i´m the only one who guessed it wasn´t really heaven?) and the return from the dead issue.
.

Actually, I had my doubts about the whole "heaven" issue back then, and now I'm beginning to think that all of that was a false memory, used to cover up some sort of conditioning like what the First Evil did with Spike in Season 7, with Angel being the triggering device in the current situation. We could even take that back further, with something similar happening to Angel between the end of Season 2 and his return in Season 3, and apply both of those events to what is going on now, having both Angel and Buffy be long term sleeper agents for some Higher Being, whether it cares to call itself the Universe, the First Evil, the Senior Partners, or anything else. In fact, all of those Big Bads might even be merely aliases adopted by a single malevolent entity bent on the annihilation of the human race.

And that's about the only scenario that I can imagine at this moment that would in any way at least partially get Angel off the hook for what has happened so far in Season 8.

 

[Eleftheria]

I haven't read issue 34 and haven't seen those pictures, so maybe I am not the right person to judge. I just wanna say that when it comes to couples on tv or in comics I would like to see less blatant pictures. Spuffy in s6, I get why they had to be so steamy. It has to do with complicated emotional situation and stuff. But I still don't like it. I thought Smashed was too graphic and Dead things...well no comments for that. So both the comic and tv show have been too graphic.

When it comes to bangel, I don't wanna say that this is THE romantic relationship cause there was passion, heat and much more than romantic love. But I don't wanna see them too graphic cause it takes the mystery away.

I don't think Scott Allie offended the fans, although he could be a little more careful with his words, cause us shippers really are passionate for our favourite couples. And as I have said before I also hope he gives a solution in issue #35.

And now a question...I read what White avenger wrote...is there any possibility Buffy wasn't in heaven? I never heard of that theory before! Could you please elaborate? Thanks.

 

[InsaneMystic]

And that's about the only scenario that I can imagine at this moment that would in any way at least partially get Angel off the hook for what has happened so far in Season 8.

Seeing how much everyone loves retcon and how many people cite "Inside Out" as their favorite episode, that would be desperate measures indeed. (Seriously, if they retcon away the reality of Buffy in Heaven, I'm tempted to call for public burnings of the comics.)

I hope they have the balls to kill off Angel for good this time.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Don´t get even started with this again. She forgave him in season 7 so the AR is no longer an issue.

Why are you mad at me? I've never heard anyone say "That was not attempted rape" so I was curious and wanted to know more. I haven't said that it's an "issue".

I never hated Spike! Sure he was evil but not like Angelus or Darla evil. Angelus made him to do what he had done back in the days but Spike decided to do his own thing and we all saw how he behaved when Angelus was back in Sunnydale.

After he was captured and tortured by Glory he realised he wasn´t a monster after all and he never could hurt Buffy like that. Getting tortured for someone who hates/dislikes you isn´t something you do if you you are a evil son of a b*tch.

I knew why Buffy slept with Spike in season 6 and i wasn´t disgusted at all. It was just a chain of events in her and his past and the whole heaven(i´m the only one who guessed it wasn´t really heaven?) and the return from the dead issue. She couldn´t feel anything at all but Spike was avaiable and she took the chance to feel something again. Wouldn´t you have done it too no matter the consequences?

Off topic: I´m in that position right now so i know exactly what i´m talking about and how Buffy felt. Don´t pity me i´m fine with it.

Is this part directed at me? I assume it was, since you quoted me.

I'm not sure what you mean by the first paragraph, but I can say that I think he is a SOB, since he kills people. The good in him doesn't make up for it, IMO.

And while I was very disgusted with Spuffy in season 6, I understand why she did it. I even understand him a bit. But that doesn't mean I find it less gross.

And I know you said not to pity you about the Spuffy-like situation, but I'm going to give you a mental hug anyway, and that's that. :tongue3:

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

And now a question...I read what White avenger wrote...is there any possibility Buffy wasn't in heaven? I never heard of that theory before! Could you please elaborate? Thanks.

I rewatched all seasons of Bvts and Angel some months ago and at the same time i read all comics about them too so it got me thinking.

In OMWF she sings about her being in heaven and there was no fear no doubt till they pulled her out of heaven. But we actually never saw her in heaven so it´s possible it was just a illusion or a mindgame.

However the same could happened to Angel before when he was send through the portal. We actually never saw Angel in the hell dimension either.

Buffy and Angel died mystically and not through a natural cause. Her only real dead was the drowning in the end of season 1. The question is can you end up in heaven when you die like that?

I´m not into faith,god,bibles and all that stuff but wasn´t her sacrifice not also a kind of a suicide? Suicide is actually a sin and you will end up in hell if you kill yourself. I always wondered why she could remember being in heaven?

Also Spike said there are infinite hell dimensions so why should be there only one heaven dimension? I don´t think TPTB are in heaven either. Cordy was bored to death there and i don´t think heaven would be like that and we already know she wasn´t really a higher being it was just another mindf*ck.

Actually the Supernatural heaven is more likley. I really liked the episode in heaven. It was more real to me then just a castle in the sky and flying Angels. And don´t forget the fluffy clouds.

Like white said it´s possible it all started with those two events. Somehow Angel and Buffy got triggered and now the universe pulls their strings to wipe out mankind.

Buffy and Angel were dead for 3 months or more? If it was the exact same time it could mean something too.

Maybe Twilight,universe or whatever(damn we really need a name for the real big bad) needed some time to prepare and manipulate Buffy and Angel for there plan and their deaths were the perfect moment to do so.

And now my head is spinning again. If this was the case it would be interesting to know where they both really were. If it wasn´t hell or heaven? What was it then?

 

[LyteHouse]

Well, is there much to praise in Season 8? Be honest.

Season 8 reminds me of my cooking "“ starts off pretty well but then gradually descends into an absolute repugnant mess of shit and I'm left sitting on the toilet wondering where it all went wrong.


Everything turned south after the 'Time of your Life' arc.


'Predators and Prey' was half a year of filler. And boring-assed filler at that.


'Retreat' is one of the most ridiculously spasticated storylines I've ever had the mis-fortune to read. (Seriously, those three Hindu Goddesses? I had to hide that Issue when my friends came round.)


And then you get to 'Twilight'. Ho-Lee-Shit.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

Is this part directed at me? I assume it was, since you quoted me.

I'm not sure what you mean by the first paragraph, but I can say that I think he is a SOB, since he kills people. The good in him doesn't make up for it, IMO.

And while I was very disgusted with Spuffy in season 6, I understand why she did it. I even understand him a bit. But that doesn't mean I find it less gross.

That was just my opinion and how i saw the things that happened and i found it a little bit romantic. Season 6 was just all about sex and abusing each other but sometimes you could see the little spark of love between them. Like Spike said love is about passion,violence and sometimes even selfdestructive.

Season 7 was totally different and she finally found out that she really loved Spike. He became her champion and that´s all i needed to know. They are the perfect couple. Period.

Bangel on the other hand was always something i couldn´t get. I don´t believe in love at first sight,destiny and all that nonsense.

Now shoot me. 🙂

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Buffy4ever2k10 agrees: I´m not mad at you. Sorry if i offended you. It was just a preemptive strike to stop another shipperwar. 🙂

Okilidokeli.

Buffy and Angel died mystically and not through a natural cause. Her only real dead was the drowning in the end of season 1. The question is can you end up in heaven when you die like that?

I doubt he died. That was never said, was it?

I've read plenty of fanfics that pointed out that Angel didn't die, he was just sent through the portal. And that his blood might have been enough (that she stuck the sword in him, threw it into the portal, so he could stay), him going to hell wasn't necassary.
Could be the truth.

Also Spike said there are infinite hell dimensions so why should be there only one heaven dimension? I don´t think TPTB are in heaven either. Cordy was bored to death there and i don´t think heaven would be like that and we already know she wasn´t really a higher being it was just another mindf*ck.

She could have been a higher being. I always thought Skip fooled the powers that be into turning Cordy into a demon and then higher being.[/QUOTE]

 

[white avenger]

Kean agrees: He wasn't reformed he was muzzled, very different situation. Spike only began his road to reformation when he went to get the soul.

Okay, Spike was reformed because he was muzzled. And Angel had reverted because his muzzle, his soul, apparently is no longer capable of restraining the murderer that he had been. My point is, for whatever reason, whether because of the chip, his feelings for Buffy, or a genuine desire to be a better person, Spike was fighting on the side of the Good Guys. Angel, on the other hand, as far as Buffy knows at the moment, is evil, a murderer, and is Twilight. Spike in Season 6 was at least an ally. Angel in Season 8, at least at this point, is the enemy, not of just the Slayers, but of humanity in its entirety.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

She could have been a higher being. I always thought Skip fooled the powers that be into turning Cordy into a demon and then higher being.

I think she never was a higher being and the visions came not from the TPTB. Jasmine and Skip raped her mind and body. The whole higher being thing was just a illusion and after Cordy came back without her memories Jasmine was already inside her mind. Jasmine seduced Connor with Cordys body. We don´t know if Cordys mind was still conscious when all that happened but i guess the real Cordelia was long gone. She fell into a coma after Jasmines death and she never woke up again.

After that she finally became a higher being but her body was already dead. She visited Angel for one last time to show him the Black Thorn and how to defeat them. That was her last favor from the real PTB(?).

Maybe the TPTB doesn´t exist at all. Who knows?

Skytteflickan88 agrees: Naw, you can stay unharmed. And I do think I saw a spark in season 6. Hidden by pain, and semen and blood and regret. ;P

*cough* I just think love isn´t all about sunshine and rainbows. I like the dark aspects of love too. Like i said i´m crazy. You just have to deal with it. 🙂

 

[nmcil12]

We keep hearing how #35 is going to explain everything, make everything right, reveal who the REAL Big Bad is, and just about every other claim short of it curing the common cold. but I frankly simply CAN NOT envision any possible excuse for Angel to be associated with a group, even if he isn't their real leader, who is responsible for the death and mayhem that Twilight has caused. Granted, Angel seems to have no qualms about making major decisions for others, without either their knowledge or permission, decisions that will literally alter the course of their very lives, on the excuse that it is "for the greater good," but to the best of my knowledge, he has only killed one hero, Drogyn, to advance his plans. To me, if this really is, as we have been assured many times, the REAL Angel, in complete control of his faculties, under neither thrall or evil spell, then he has stepped so far over the line that he can never return. And if Buffy cannot see that, if she is that blinded by her hormones, so easily won over by an outlandish story and a little light affects, then she is right across that same line, and there can be no possible redemption for either one of them.

Twangel has already suggested that the devastation and destruction that we are seeing was going to happen - it's like he has future knowledge of events and his role was to "as he states keep the numbers lower" (paraphrase) so I will not be at all surprised if the justification for all his actions get this treatment. I sincerely hope that I am wrong, cause another "Angel clean-up" for his "it's for the better good" or "personal agenda and personal need" will be One To Many for me.

Certainly leaders and generals have to make the Super Hard decisions, but they also can and have done supremely stupid and deadly ones. And it is total nonsense to propose that Twangel had no alternatives but this "diversion and numbers control" - how about simply telling Buffy, Giles,Willow, all the people who could make decisions based on his "privileged information" -