Scott Allie replies to fan response to issue # 34....

[TheVoid68]

I hate this new development because I'm an Angel fan, and I think that this storyline is basically taking a crap all over his character.

 

[SpaceLord]

I don't actually care anymore about the comic and what happens, lets face it it's bad

 

[nmcil12]

Oh man, oh man... interesting.

Well I totally agree with Scott Allie. We're all crazy, think of the amount of time we've spent in arguments over did Spike attempt to rape Buffy, Was Angel and Buffy's love only a first love, if you were to look at us from the outside we are a bunch of crazy people.

I always think people that are really into stuff are odd, like super Christian Christians, extremest Muslims, Star Trek fans that dress up and go to conventions, I'm sure there's some group everyone has judged as odd or weired, it's just natural. And we are no different. So for him to say back on planet earth is totally justifiable as we're not discussing something on planet earth, we're discussing something in the Buffyverse.

I think, as well, that allot of fans have been in he wrong in how they are handling the comics.

To be honest it makes me think realistically the Buffy comic can't work, and that Buffy would have to be on TV, because people expect the same results they got with the TV show as they do with the comics, which is ridiculous.

People have been condemning Angel, threating to stop reading (I don't men you Joan, your reason to conciser to stop reading is valid), and saying there is no way back, or everything about the comics is all out of character.

For one thing, we don't know whats going on with Angel yet, so people need to put their pitchforks down and get the full answer before they jump.
For the people who say there is no way back, think of the characters from the show, we have a Witch who killed people and tried to end the world who we accepted back into the group, we have a vampire that IMO attempted to rape Buffy who went on to be a possible love interest.

And for the people calling in porn! Are you for real? Cuz I don't conciser it any worse then Spike and Buffy in season 7, we saw Spike getting a blowjob from the Buffy bot in Season 5, and Buffy unzipping Spikes pants and then riding him.
The only difference I can see is this was when it was Spike it was ok, but Angel, well thats just a travesty!
(Personally I agree with WA, I think Buffy/Angel was more romantic then what we got, but I don't have a problem with the images)

Saying 'Kids read comics, they shouldn't be this porno-like', is actually extremely condescending, kids can read comics, but they don't go into a shop and pick up Buffy, if they do it's not up to Darkhorse or the Buffy writers to censor it for children, it's not aimed at children, thats up to the government to impose a rating on comics, and then the local shop to enforce it. TWAF lists the comic as 13+, the DVD's were 15? (Here in Ireland anyway)




I think what he's referring to, is that Buffy was evolved and Angel was identified as her true other half so thats why this Twilight thing happened to him to, and not, to say Spike. I for one am very happy with that. Even when this Twilight thing ends badly for them, we know have it that Buffy and Angel are each others other halves.


Yes, just like she did with Spike, who had killed 2 slayers, but this only seems to suddenly be a travesty now that it's Angel.
]



But we are a bunch of whiny, over-zealous fan girls/boys?

From his perspective. Outrage rings much loader then complements, so I'm sure all their hearing is "I don't like this that and the other"

(To be honest thats mostly what I've heard too)

I am not speaking as a Spike Fan or Angel hater - these are the questions that are of interesting and importance to me in these comics books. Has nothing whatever to do with "shippers" -

Isn't the context of "slayer killings" so very different? Spike taking on two warriors on a one to one basis is very different from what is being presented in the Twilight context.

Another thing that I find disturbing in the premise from Twangel that he did not actually kill people and Slayers, presumably because he did not actually handle weapons or give orders is like saying generals and leaders who command troops, give orders, and make the plans of war are not culpable - it is after all only the soldiers doing the killing.

---------- Post added at 01:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 PM ----------

I think think that comic and television can be quite similar in story telling styles. For instance Angel: After the fall, the canon one, I loved. It felt like a good continuation of the show, and I would have loved to see it on television. Buffy Season 8 also works well as a continuation, but I would have stopped watching a long time go.
I think the idea of the show continuing in comic form is sound though, it's simply that tastes differ. Some people love it, some hate it. I'm the latter but I do think it should continue because a lot of fans want it to. Fans are what it really comes down to, I don't think Allie meant it to be a put down, but even the slightest hint of mockery at a community that is putting cash in his pocket, is always going to get an angry response.

My personal opinion, Scot Allie and all the PR reps are professionals, they have been working in the field for years, they know all about marketing - Scot Allie does not make stupid mistakes - he is perfectly aware that he is being condescending in how he references "shippers." and the passions of fans. No one would uses his "adorable" remarks without full knowledge of the effect it will have.

Perhaps I am just too cynical but after I read his Q&A and interviews I always feel that it was all meant to create spin in order to stir up the fans.

We will all just have to wait and see how this is all resolved - But one thing I do think will happen, and has already started happening is that not only is Twangel and Buffy in "Twilight" but the fandom in being placed in the predicament. Things are at a crossroads for many fans. If my reactions to the comics are an indication of what many fans are feeling right now. I used to go out and buy all the covers my local store had, I even bought alternative covers that I thought were especially outstanding - since issue 33 I cut down all my purchases to one copy.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

"SpaceLord disagrees: No excuse is valid. Excuses are just a way of not taking responsibility"


Perhaps 'reason' would have been a better choice of word... If I had anyone half as invested in my doing something as Wolfram & Hart is with Angel, I'd cave in.


Hopefully #35 is less cryptic. I guess it comes out on the 5th.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

People are sure angry lately. At the end of the day it is just a comic book, and I wasn't insulted by what Allie wrote. I guess I'm just not as invested as I used to be and I'm a little relaxed about it all. I still love Buffy, but I have a different attitude about the comics now, and for awhile.

Yes, you're right; it is just a story. A comic book. And you're right, the fandom hasn't been happy lately. How do I react to this? I think it's extrodinary. The love that fans have for this show and for these characters...the hours we spend chatting on her and on other sites...the creativity and passion of Buffy fans never ceases to absolutely blow me away. Personally, I'm PROUD to me a part of such a dymanic and passionate fandom.


so, we're angry. We want answers. We have opinons, theories. But you know what? It's OK. That's good, though, that you can distance yourself from it. I can't. I am invested in these characters and in this universe. I'll admit it. Probobly to an unhealthy level. I love, love this show and these characters so much, and I think it's alright to be critical. For me, that's part of being a "true" fan - having the ability to look at the story objectively and to critisize it. At heart, I'm a critic. I'm an English major, I've spent 4 years of my life immersed in literary criticism and theory - and that's how I look at the series. Like a text; to be analyzed, critisized, interpreted, and evaluated. It never ceases to interest me, no matter how many times I watch it. Anyway, my point is, when fans get angry it's because they care. That's a good thing. Yet, if the story is upsetting you so much, then take a step away, you know?

It's amazing what still images and thought bubbles can do to us.

Agreed. Sometimes I wish the show had ended and their had never been a Season 8 continuation. Then, at least, Angel would still be Angel, and we wouldn't be debating his moral merits and if he's evil or not.

Sometimes I wish I could just let go of Buffy and move on. Show's been dead for 7 years. The actors moved on long long ago. But not me. And I don't think Whedon is really that invested in it anymore. He seems to have more interest in other projects lately.

Never let go of what you love, man! Just because a show isn't airing anymore doesn't mean it's dead and should be treated as such. The thriving fandom should attest to that! 🙂

---------- Post added at 03:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:04 PM ----------

That was just my opinion and how i saw the things that happened and i found it a little bit romantic. Season 6 was just all about sex and abusing each other but sometimes you could see the little spark of love between them. Like Spike said love is about passion,violence and sometimes even selfdestructive.

Season 7 was totally different and she finally found out that she really loved Spike. He became her champion and that´s all i needed to know. They are the perfect couple. Period.

Bangel on the other hand was always something i couldn´t get. I don´t believe in love at first sight,destiny and all that nonsense.

Whoa, whoa my friend! It looks like my thread is getting hy-jacked! Hold your horses! 😉

(And yes of course Spuffy are the perfect couple 🙂

White avengers theory is brilliant, but we'll probobly never know if that's the case. I'd say it's definitely possible. As far as I know, since Joss is an athiest, there is no actual Heaven in existance in the Buffyverse. Buffy said she thought she was in Heaven. She was warm and safe and done...all these sentiments she felt led her to "name" this place where she was, even though she had no way of knowing where she was. Even Buffy says there's nothing solid regarding God's existance in CWDP. I think it's fair to say that the Buffyverse is at least Christian-nuetral if not Anti-Chrisanity all together for many reasons I won't go into here. BUT that is a disscusion for another thread...

I just wanted to address Kean's comment here before I give you all a little push back to my thread's main topic:

Kean agrees: He wasn't reformed he was muzzled, very different situation. Spike only began his road to reformation when he went to get the soul.

That's your opinion and I repect that, but it's not everyone's opinion. Many fans beleive that Spike started his jounrny to redemption BEFORE he got his soul.

Perhaps I am just too cynical but after I read his Q&A and interviews I always feel that it was all meant to create spin in order to stir up the fans.

Interesting...I wonder if that was his intention.

Anywho, back to topic: any other thoughts on Allie's response?

 

[InsaneMystic]

I hope they have the balls to kill off Angel for good this time.

Joan the Vampire Slayer agrees: Sadly, no such luck. Angel is Joss' baby, next to Buffy.

Right now, he seems the kind of baby depicted in the "It's Alive!" movies... and I couldn't get the parents' reaction in those movies either. If such a thing claws itself out of its mother's womb, any conscientious parent should try to have it put down ASAP, not feed it on raw bloody meat. 😛

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Right now, he seems the kind of baby depicted in the "It's Alive!" movies... and I couldn't get the parents' reaction in those movies either. If such a thing claws itself out of its mother's womb, any conscientious parent should try to have it put down ASAP, not feed it on raw bloody meat. 😛

😉
I know, right? How very Frankenstein. In the book, Victor loses control of his own creation. He is horrified by what he has created, what it had become - and therefore abandons it.

 

[dan k]

For me proper Buffy ended with Chosen and Angel with Not Fade Away. The comics don't involve the actors who i believe made the show. When i think of Buffy i don't think of a picture in a comic, i think of SMG. Likewise with all of the other characters. That's way for me my time is invested in the show rather than in the comic which i don't see as Canon. Therefore what Mr Allie says doesn't effect me that much.

 

[Eleftheria]

Thanks for the answer Buffy4ever2k10.

I still have doubts about this though. Well, Angel did not die. He was sent to a hell dimension. I don't know what that was like. He had to suffer there and perhaps fight for his life.But he wasn't dead. He spent three months or 100 years being tortured.

Buffy did not commit suicide. Yeah she felt her mission was finished but she didn't jump to save herself from the big problem called:LIFE. She saved Dawn, and just because she saved her, Summers' blood had to be sacrificed. So Buffy chose to be hers and not her sister's.Because she loved Dawn so much, she couldn't bear watching her die. If this happened in s6, I would say she would want to end her life. But not in s5. BUffy was still herself in this season. And she would never kill herself. Sacrifice is a different thing.

I really have no idea what's going on after all. I think sth took over Angel and is tricking Buffy using his face. But it must have some power over Buffy too. I don't think this happened because of their deaths. I had a totally different opinion about their deaths.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

That's your opinion and I repect that, but it's not everyone's opinion. Many fans beleive that Spike started his jounrny to redemption BEFORE he got his soul.

Personally, I don't know about redemption, but I think Spike was always as upstanding as an evil vampire could be. I'd have trouble seeing him do anything but protect Joyce or Dawn even at his worst. He claimed in AS5 that he didn't understand his personal "evil" or consequences before he got his soul. I think both he and Dru were more about having fun than destroying humanity. Where Angelus & Darla were all about the art of being evil.

 

[dan k]

I think if you asked people to choose whether the show continued as a comic or as a television series with all the cast returning then the comic idea would be gratefully disregarded. The comic i think acts as a consolation prize.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I think if you asked people to choose whether the show continued as a comic or as a television series with all the cast returning then the comic idea would be gratefully disregarded. The comic i think acts as a consolation prize.

Well come on, that's a non-issue. No one in their right mind would ever prefer a comic to a better form of media, especially in this case where the actors were fantastic (as opposed to say "Star Trek" or "Batman & Robin" where the actors were cheesy folks with a tongue-in-cheek style). James Marsters & Sarah Gellar were even praised by the artsy-fartsy crowd before being hired on BtVS.

"After the Fall" was by far the best comic book I've ever read. Still would I rather have Marsters, Boreanaz, Denisof, Richards, Carpenter, etc.? OF COURSE!

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I think if you asked people to choose whether the show continued as a comic or as a television series with all the cast returning then the comic idea would be gratefully disregarded. The comic i think acts as a consolation prize.

I think this has been the main issue with the comics, people who weren't necessarily fans of comics were switching mediums and the flow of a comic is to different to TV.

The story's evolve to slow and people debate the issues to death during the month break and build up assumptions, or if they didn't like something, discussing it just turns it into hate and then the next issue comes out and there isn't enough answers again and the blood boils.

(I'm not ignoring comments above, to people that replied to what I said, I'm just on for a few mins so don't want to reply to stuff in a rush!)

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

The story's evolve to slow and people debate the issues to death during the month break and build up assumptions, or if they didn't like something, discussing it just turns it into hate and then the next issue comes out and there isn't enough answers again and the blood boils.

I usually agree with you BEG, but not here. Look at After the Fall same situation, same author, some of the same characters, yet and overwhelmingly positive response. How many people were calling for Whedon or Lynch's head then?

 

[GrimsWatcher]

Truthfully, I don't know if the Buffy fandom has been overly happy in years and years. A lot of fans felt the show lost appeal after they graduated, and this was 1999. Some people were angry that Willow fell in love with a girl, and it goes on and on. I think the show lost something in season 6.

Whether the comics are a trainwreck or not, it is sparking debate, and without the comics there would be nothing to discuss. So I think it's better they exist than not. I mean there's only so many times we can argue about a certain episode that aired a decade ago right? Just think of all the discussion that will happen next week. Most likely a lot of outrage and hate will be the result, but still it's something to talk about.

The reason I can distance myself lately is because I don't take the comics seriously anymore, not since WATG. And I've cooled down since then. I still read them, I enjoy them, I'll be there this Wed. to pick up the next issue and participate in the conversation, although not as passionately as others. And I'm still curious to see what everyone has to say, otherwise I wouldn't be here.

Joan, I understand what you mean, and I'm not trying to insult anyone by them being hardcore or anything if that's the way I came across. I am a fanatic in my own way, and I'd kill for a Buffy movie. And not the fake kind that is supposedly in the works. Buffy is without a doubt my favorate show ever, and I doubt I'll ever feel this connected to a show again. I just watched The Prom today and it's still as great as it's ever been.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Truthfully, I don't know if the Buffy fandom has been overly happy in years and years. A lot of fans felt the show lost appeal after they graduated, and this was 1999. Some people were angry that Willow fell in love with a girl, and it goes on and on. I think the show lost something in season 6.

I have to agree. I can watch S1-3 over and over, but 4-7 I have to be in the mood for (with specific exceptions)...

Whether the comics are a trainwreck or not, it is sparking debate, and without the comics there would be nothing to discuss. So I think it's better they exist than not. I mean there's only so many times we can argue about a certain episode that aired a decade ago right? Just think of all the discussion that will happen next week. Most likely a lot of outrage and hate will be the result, but still it's something to talk about.

That's a very mature way to look at it, but there are examples in literature where a series has remained popular even after canon material has ceased being created.

The problem I have with it is Joss just dropped the ball (which he partly admitted to TV Guide). I never expected it to be as good as the show, but I did not expect it to be bad. Harmonic Divergence was bad, lesbian Buffy was poorly done (sorry Andrew), especially compared to Willow, which is considered a landmark moment in media history to the LGBTs. (Tw)Angel at this point doesn't make sense (which may change soon). This isn't "I'm pissed because it didn't go the way I expected" this is bad writing.

The reason I can distance myself lately is because I don't take the comics seriously anymore, not since WATG. And I've cooled down since then. I still read them, I enjoy them, I'll be there this Wed. to pick up the next issue and participate in the conversation, although not as passionately as others. And I'm still curious to see what everyone has to say, otherwise I wouldn't be here.

I'm slightly more avid a reader than you, but not by much. I've distanced myself, but not intentionally. I just can't hear/see Boreanaz' Angel acting this way, not just the killing, but (Tw)Angel speaks like a 1980s Saturday morning Cartoon Supervillain.

And bank robbing, murderer-banger Buffy doesn't strike me as Sarah's gal either.

 

[GrimsWatcher]

Buffyverse Fan, oh no doubt I agree, Batsu was a mess, vamps in, slayers out makes no sense, and it goes on and on. It's scattered and very disconnected. The idea that Harmony has a reality show on MTV and she bit Andy Dick is embarrassingly bad.

I'm not a defender of the comics, but I'm just not that mad about them anymore. But who knows, maybe they'll do a storyline in the future that gets under my skin and I'll feel some rage. But I don't see it happening.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Buffyverse Fan, oh no doubt I agree, Batsu was a mess, vamps in, slayers out makes no sense, and it goes on and on. It's scattered and very disconnected. The idea that Harmony has a reality show on MTV and she bit Andy Dick is embarrassingly bad.

I'm not a defender of the comics, but I'm just not that mad about them anymore. But who knows, maybe they'll do a storyline in the future that gets under my skin and I'll feel some rage. But I don't see it happening.

Yeah, I gotcha. It really is. And beyond the dubious stories, Angel calling Buffy "Buff" is such a big oversight. Like I said initially, it would be like someone calling him "Angelus" and not getting corrected :eek2:

 

[GrimsWatcher]

We need to be fair and realize the show made mistakes or contradictions a lot, like ubervamps being push overs in Chosen after Buffy got beaten down in Bring on the Night.

Anya used to have a necklace that helped her make wishes and that was a rule to her vengeance demon activities in season 3 I think, and she had a evil demon voice when in demon face, and yet that goes away.

Spike called Angel his sire in School Hard, but Drusilla sired him. Also, in the alternate world in The Wish, if Buffy was the one meant to free The Master, how'd he get out in that timeline? Maybe I'm missing something. And there's plenty of other mistakes or weird choices along the way.

And one of the strangest things I don't undestand still is why everyone thinks if Buffy dies then a potential will be activated. Shouldn't Faith have to die to pass it down? Kendra had to die to bring Faith, so Faith should have to die to bring in someone new.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

We need to be fair and realize the show made mistakes or contradictions a lot, like ubervamps being push overs in Chosen after Buffy got beaten down in Bring on the Night.

I never saw that as an inconsistency. The Master & Kokistos were noticeably stronger than Buffy, yet Buffy was stronger than 99% of vamps. Same deal, different strength levels within a species.

Anya used to have a necklace that helped her make wishes and that was a rule to her vengeance demon activities in season 3 I think, and she had a evil demon voice when in demon face, and yet that goes away.

As Halfrek pointed out, Anya's whole shtick was out of choice. While she wasn't wearing her necklace when she got her powers back, there's nothing to say she wasn't wearing a comparable bobble under her clothes.

Spike called Angel his sire in School Hard, but Drusilla sired him. Also, in the alternate world in The Wish, if Buffy was the one meant to free The Master, how'd he get out in that timeline? Maybe I'm missing something. And there's plenty of other mistakes or weird choices along the way.

For all we know to grant Cordy's wish, Anya jumped the line to Kendra, Kendra freed the Master (and died), and Buffy was then called...

Spike continued calling Angel his sire throughout the series. It never bothered me, as Angelus was both his mentor and grandsire (ie-"Pop" can refer to father or grandfather).

"I'm going to stake me old Sire right here and now!"- Spike to Angel in Angel "In the Dark"

And one of the strangest things I don't undestand still is why everyone thinks if Buffy dies then a potential will be activated. Shouldn't Faith have to die to pass it down? Kendra had to die to bring Faith, so Faith should have to die to bring in someone new.

I agree with you on this one, but it's not a continuity error, just stupidity. There are really only two explanations:
1.) Another Slayer was called off-screen between S5 & S6, and none of our heroes found out.

2.) Faith is THE Slayer, and Giles just doesn't realize.

All of what you mentioned are good points, but they're just cases of no onscreen exposition. Angel calling Buffy "Buff," when it was a plot point that he doesn't do that is an error.