Scott Allie replies to fan response to issue # 34....

[GrimsWatcher]

Buffyverse Fan, you have to admit, seeing a new girl like Amanda or Vi take out ubervamps like they are nothing after Buffy was getting beat down by one is a little much. I think even Whedon said it was inconsistent in a commentary. These flaws aren't a huge deal to me either, I can ignore them. They don't ruin the story.

I figure they'll fix this Buff thing in the TPB. Unless it's intentional and we don't have the full story yet. I'm used to mistakes in the comics sadly. Hello Warren.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

And one of the strangest things I don't undestand still is why everyone thinks if Buffy dies then a potential will be activated. Shouldn't Faith have to die to pass it down? Kendra had to die to bring Faith, so Faith should have to die to bring in someone new.

I definitly don't believe that. I think Buffy was wrong when she pretended that was the way it was in season 7.

---------- Post added at 09:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 AM ----------

I think if you asked people to choose whether the show continued as a comic or as a television series with all the cast returning then the comic idea would be gratefully disregarded. The comic i think acts as a consolation prize.

If you had asked me that before issue 4 of season 8, I had say "Bring on another tv-season!" but after issue 12, I was hooked and wouldn't have wanted to change it.

Now I don't know. But what I do know is that I want to see how it ends. I wouldn't even want a movie right now, if it meant Joss couldn't finish season 8.

I've waited too damn long to see how this will make sense, and I'm not giving up. Even tough I have 3 un-read issues here, within reach. I might not feel the passion, but I still "love" season 8.

The TV was the past, the comic is now.

---------- Post added at 09:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:08 AM ----------

That sounded more rant-y and fierce political statement-y than I meant.

 

[dan k]

I've read on here what happens in the comics and read the summary of the first 10 or so episodes. My point about preferring the tv show was obvious but i just wanted to make the point that a lot of people will never accept the comics because they feel Buffy ended with Chosen.

The storylines going on in season 8 aren't particularly appealing to me. I don't know if that's because they are in comic form but i just think what's going on is sometimes a bit ridiculous. Dawn being a giant etc, Buffy setting up base in Scotland? Doesn't seem believable to me.l

I'll be honest though and say the comic will never compare to the television series so i find it hard investing my time in something i know was so much better in a different form.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Well, you can't really know if it's better or not until you try it can you? You can guess, but you can't know.

The story probably doesn't sound appealing to someone who hasn't read it. But neither did Buffy getting a kid sis in season 5, when I read spoilers about it, but when I watched it, it made sense, and was entertaining.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Everyone needs to bear in mind that "bad writing" is a matter of opinion, not a matter of objective fact. Some of the things people here are citing as low points of the season are, for me, highlights. I think I'm a fairly sophisticated and intelligent reader, and I found Satsu -- both as a free agent and as a romantic interest for Buffy -- to be my single favorite aspect of season 8.

Notwithstanding a couple of minor bumps in the road, I loved season 8 pretty much unreservedly up until the Twilight reveal. My unhappiness is tethered almost completely to the fact that Buffy is (at least right now) my favorite fictional heroine, and the moral implications of what she's doing right now introduce the real possibility that I won't be able to like her any more.

I'm sure Joss fully intends to show in the end that Buffy and Angel are not irredeemable betrayers of all humanity. I just can't really see how he's going to do it, and I have doubts that an explanation that satisfies Joss will satisfy me.

If he does succeed in pulling it off, I will certainly consider season 8 the equal of any of the TV seasons.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Everyone needs to bear in mind that "bad writing" is a matter of opinion, not a matter of objective fact.

Well my chief criticism in regards to bad writing is the meandering plot, which Joss himself said he is displeased with...

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I usually agree with you BEG, but not here. Look at After the Fall same situation, same author, some of the same characters, yet and overwhelmingly positive response. How many people were calling for Whedon or Lynch's head then?

True, now I actually don't mind the wait between comics, but I don't think After the fall has been held to the same scrutney as Buffy.

Like it didn't carry as big a fan base and although people discussed the issues, they didn't really create threads about certain things in the issue like has been done with Buffy (I'm just going off our community here with that info)

I also think there were a good few people that stopped reading the Angel comics much earlier then they had concidered with Buffy. I gave Angel 4 issues before deciding I hated it and stopped, and I know I wasn't alone on that.

Everyone needs to bear in mind that "bad writing" is a matter of opinion, not a matter of objective fact. Some of the things people here are citing as low points of the season are, for me, highlights. I think I'm a fairly sophisticated and intelligent reader, and I found Satsu -- both as a free agent and as a romantic interest for Buffy -- to be my single favorite aspect of season 8.

Totally agree. Allot of people have been saying how bad the writing is, or how out of character things are, and that isn't the case, it's just been a matter of opinion.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Well my chief criticism in regards to bad writing is the meandering plot, which Joss himself said he is displeased with...

I think he was referring mostly to the Predators & Prey arc. Starting with the cartoon issue (#20), then the five P&P issues, and finally the TotV one-shot, we were taken away from the main storyline for seven whole months. Readership dropped off a lot and has never really recovered.

I think everyone agrees in hindsight that it would have been better to spread the stand-alone issues out more evenly over the course of the season.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I think he was referring mostly to the Predators & Prey arc. Starting with the cartoon issue (#20), then the five P&P issues, and finally the TotV one-shot, we were taken away from the main storyline for seven whole months. Readership dropped off a lot and has never really recovered.

That's what I'm talking about as well. While I wouldn't hold any of the issues up to BS2 or 3, I loved the series up until P&P. I don't think I made a single post that was anything but overwhelmingly positive until Whedon delved into reality TV with Andy Dick.

I think everyone agrees in hindsight that it would have been better to spread the stand-alone issues out more evenly over the course of the season.

Personally, I think non-Buffy issues shouldn't have been published in this title to begin with. I enjoyed a lot of them, but they should have been published as "One-shots" or "spotlights." I'm pretty sure that every episode of BtVS featured Buffy. The Zeppo is the only episode that comes to mind where she wasn't plot-centric, but she was still in there (love that ep btw).

Even the Faith/Giles arc. I absolutely loved it, but I would have made that into a miniseries that ran alongside the title. What sits poorly with a lot of fans (myself included) is that Buffy's character gets little development over the course of the year, so the weird things she does like bank robbing seems out of the blue. Imo, every issue should heavily feature Buffy, and anything else, publish a "one-shot." And it's not like this is a new concept, from my little exposure, that's how every other company handles their heroes. Even IDW will throw out one-shots for Angel when they focus on one of his team mates instead of him.

 

[LyteHouse]

Everyone needs to bear in mind that "bad writing" is a matter of opinion, not a matter of objective fact.

Totally agree. Allot of people have been saying how bad the writing is, or how out of character things are, and that isn't the case, it's just been a matter of opinion.

Of course it's easy to say that there is no such thing as "good writing" or "bad writing" because, as in any artform, it's the experience of the art that makes our opinion entirely subjective.

If one person thinks its brilliant, its brilliant. If another thinks its terrible, its terrible.

But.....

The final critique of storytelling doesn't just lie with the person experiencing the story. You have to consider the writer, the intent of the story, the delivery of the writing, and the overall effect of the work. You can't place all the importance on our subjective - and therefore, potentially meaningless - experience. Art still has to be judged within the objective criteria of its medium.

And in the case of Season 8, it has violated the most sacred rule of Writing - namely that the dramatic effect Whedon and Allie are going for isn't supported by the narrative because there are severe logic holes in the situation they set up.

 

[nmcil12]

I think this has been the main issue with the comics, people who weren't necessarily fans of comics were switching mediums and the flow of a comic is to different to TV.

The story's evolve to slow and people debate the issues to death during the month break and build up assumptions, or if they didn't like something, discussing it just turns it into hate and then the next issue comes out and there isn't enough answers again and the blood boils.

(I'm not ignoring comments above, to people that replied to what I said, I'm just on for a few mins so don't want to reply to stuff in a rush!)

For a new reader to the comic book genre - as you state - everything is just too slow - this entire wait of a month, even longer in many cases, breaks the harmony you have from reading other literary forms. Plus, all this quality, at least for me, which I think of as "the Merlin syndrome," having so much of the story presented while the most important part from the "logical sequence" is only presented three years later. And we are still getting the "wait and see, all will be explained" From a lifetime of reading novels and non-fiction, I would have stopped reading a regular novel with this quality almost right away. Considering that I have probably only given up on very few novels and books in my entire life, this is saying quite a lot about by devotion to the Buffyverse.

 

[SpaceLord]

Buffyverse Fan, oh no doubt I agree, Batsu was a mess, vamps in, slayers out makes no sense, and it goes on and on. It's scattered and very disconnected. The idea that Harmony has a reality show on MTV and she bit Andy Dick is embarrassingly bad.

I'm not a defender of the comics, but I'm just not that mad about them anymore. But who knows, maybe they'll do a storyline in the future that gets under my skin and I'll feel some rage. But I don't see it happening.

I agree but let's face it, this show is not the only one that has done that. I'm a star wars fan as well and let's just say that there are some serious debate after episode III came out about who was more powerful Anakin vs. Obi-Wan, there you had Obi-Wan getting tossed aside by Dooku in the opening sequence but getting beaten by Anakin then at the end Obi-Wan beat Anakin in the final showdown. Well that left many questions about who is better and how Anakin could loose but to me it's just sad to say that writers/directors don't care about such things but only about dramatic affect and therefor give the characters the power they need to tell the story.

In the comic world we have a well known character called Wolverine who depending on story and author got a really big difference in his healing ability, in one story he healed from being pretty much just a skeleton to back in under 5 minutes while in another it takes him an hour to grow back an ear.

In Buffy you have Angel that is supposedly a champion and got kickass skills in fighting when all he's pretty much done for a hundred years is sit on his ass and eating rats and before that for what we have seen did everything he could to avoid fighting being just as good a fighter as Spike who sought out the best opponents he could find for the challenge and who could hold his own against Buffy, just one of many such things. I would think that you would have to train and keep honing your skills to keep them or improve them but in shows like this it doesn't work like that. Spike was a tough opponent when he was a bad guy but when he became part of the "team" his skills diminished how else do you explain the fact that Buffy could keep the hellmouth in check but after she died in S5 if was over run by demons and for that matter how come it wasn't over run before she showed up? No Spike with the help of Willow between S5 and S6 should easily been able to keep it in check but was not because Joss needed to show that SD was collapsing without Buffy and that's why they brought her back.

That is just the part of how power is seen in most of these kinds of fiction stories. In my opinion it's just based on who is the hero and nothing more.

Another rant over with 😀

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Truthfully, I don't know if the Buffy fandom has been overly happy in years and years. A lot of fans felt the show lost appeal after they graduated, and this was 1999. Some people were angry that Willow fell in love with a girl, and it goes on and on. I think the show lost something in season 6.

Boy, do I have a response for this post. 😉

Firstly, I have heard this opinion from many fans, and it is valid, but I have a hard time understanding it because, for me, the whole show is genius. The intricate, beautiful, complex universe Joss has created...I wouldn't give up ONE episode. Not one (well, except maybe 'Beer Bad'...). Sure, 1-3 are great, and 3 is arguably the best of show, but 6 being my personal favorite...I guess I've have to disagree with you about the fandom not being happy in years. I have only been a member of fandom since 2006 so I guess I can't really make an informed opinion on the fandom when the show was on air.

Whether the comics are a trainwreck or not, it is sparking debate, and without the comics there would be nothing to discuss.

This is where I strongly disagree. There is always something to talk about with Buffy. Most of the discussion I engage in on here and on other sites is not about Season 8 at all. Beyond discussion, there's RPG and fan fiction, and conventions, Buffy Studies... There's lots going on in this fandom - not just the fans discussing endlessly the same episodes. I get what you're saying, we DO argue and discuss the same episodes over and over - but new fans arrive into the fandom all the time, and their opinions are fresh and new, so it never gets boring. Fans come up with new theories all the time.

So I think it's better they exist than not. I mean there's only so many times we can argue about a certain episode that aired a decade ago right? Just think of all the discussion that will happen next week. Most likely a lot of outrage and hate will be the result, but still it's something to talk about.

Agreed on this point. If anything, the comics are good for generating discussion, and gaining more fans to the fandom.

The reason I can distance myself lately is because I don't take the comics seriously anymore, not since WATG. And I've cooled down since then. I still read them, I enjoy them, I'll be there this Wed. to pick up the next issue and participate in the conversation, although not as passionately as others. And I'm still curious to see what everyone has to say, otherwise I wouldn't be here.

I wish I could just not take the comics seriously. But I respect the fact that they're canon, so it's impossible to ignore them in my opinion. They're a legit part of the story, no matter how much I hate them sometimes.

Joan, I understand what you mean, and I'm not trying to insult anyone by them being hardcore or anything if that's the way I came across. I am a fanatic in my own way, and I'd kill for a Buffy movie. And not the fake kind that is supposedly in the works. Buffy is without a doubt my favorate show ever, and I doubt I'll ever feel this connected to a show again. I just watched The Prom today and it's still as great as it's ever been.

🙂 It's OK, I don't mind being called hardcore, lol. I am, after all.

 

[white avenger]

I wish I could just not take the comics seriously. But I respect the fact that they're canon, so it's impossible to ignore them in my opinion. They're a legit part of the story, no matter how much I hate them sometimes.


.

This is something that I've had trouble with since Issue #1, and it hasn't gotten a bit easier as time has gone by. I still find Season 8 and "After The Fall/Aftermath" entertaining, but I have to say that, for me at least, these just aren't the same characters that I watched for 7 years and 5 years respectively. Maybe it's the different format, or the slow progression of the plot, but I have to really stretch my imagination to see what I still consider the REAL Buffy, Angel, Spike, Willow, and the rest in these comics. At best, I see these as pretty much what the previous comic series was: stories BASED ON the series, but not necessarily canon. That's one reason that the latest developments in Season 8 seem to be, at best, some sort of parallel universe Buffy, more like better quality fan fiction that anything else.

 

[nmcil12]

Everyone needs to bear in mind that "bad writing" is a matter of opinion, not a matter of objective fact. Some of the things people here are citing as low points of the season are, for me, highlights. I think I'm a fairly sophisticated and intelligent reader, and I found Satsu -- both as a free agent and as a romantic interest for Buffy -- to be my single favorite aspect of season 8.

Notwithstanding a couple of minor bumps in the road, I loved season 8 pretty much unreservedly up until the Twilight reveal. My unhappiness is tethered almost completely to the fact that Buffy is (at least right now) my favorite fictional heroine, and the moral implications of what she's doing right now introduce the real possibility that I won't be able to like her any more.

I'm sure Joss fully intends to show in the end that Buffy and Angel are not irredeemable betrayers of all humanity. I just can't really see how he's going to do it, and I have doubts that an explanation that satisfies Joss will satisfy me.

If he does succeed in pulling it off, I will certainly consider season 8 the equal of any of the TV seasons.

Totally agree with you - I may not have absolutely loved the comic book season - it is so different from the TV era - what I loved about the series was the great dramatic content and the performances by the actors. With the comic books, we of course cannot have any of that - the artists do the best they can to give us the visuals of the emotional content. But nothing for me will be more important than how the questions of moral and ethical themes involved with the last two issue and now, the choices that Buffy makes regarding all that has happened. Twangel, I frankly have no hope that Angel/Angelus will actually get the treatment of Hero/Champion turned Evil Power Hungry Psychopath. But hey, maybe I will be completety wrong and get a huge surprise.

How Buffy will handle all that has happened at the hands of Twangel will be the all important thing for me, not just for this season, but probably for the entire series.

This really is a crossroads for me, I have been totally devoted to the Buffyverse and Angelverse and Joss Whedon from the start of Buffy, but how he resolves all this and how he connects the characters to the morality of this series will be extremely important to me.

Twangel is responsible for the deaths of many people, slayers and has beaten the hell out of Buffy and Satsu - these elements in the story are extremely important and should not be glossed over.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

At best, I see these as pretty much what the previous comic series was: stories BASED ON the series, but not necessarily canon.

Remember, "canon" has nothing to do with quality, or even content. Just Joss.

The key is the very first thing Buffy says in the beginning of season 8... "once you change the world, the world's all different."

The characters may be different than they were in seasons 1-7, but people do become different as their lives change. That nerdy kid you knew in high school might seem like a totally different person after a hitch in the Marines... especially if he saw heavy combat. But once you sit down to talk to him, you'd recognize the same person you knew before... just changed by life. That's the way it is with these Buffy characters.

 

[sosa lola]

Remember, "canon" has nothing to do with quality, or even content. Just Joss.

The key is the very first thing Buffy says in the beginning of season 8... "once you change the world, the world's all different."

The characters may be different than they were in seasons 1-7, but people do become different as their lives change. That nerdy kid you knew in high school might seem like a totally different person after a hitch in the Marines... especially if he saw heavy combat. But once you sit down to talk to him, you'd recognize the same person you knew before... just changed by life. That's the way it is with these Buffy characters.

Word!

And who says that the characters were exactly the same throughout seasons 1 to 7. Just watch an episode from S1 and then watch another from S7. Buffy, Xander and Willow are COMPLETELY different. Actually, watch S6 and then watch S7. All those three had grown and matured a lot in three months after S6. Now, it's a year and a half from S7 with so many changes in the world and Buffy and her friends' positions, they have to change.

 

[SpaceLord]

That's one reason that the latest developments in Season 8 seem to be, at best, some sort of parallel universe Buffy, more like better quality fan fiction that anything else.

I have to disagree with that cause I've read a lot of fanfic that is by far more interesting and well written, better than average fanfic maybe but it doesn't come close to fanfic where the author has got a good story to tell and knows the characters that he/she can write them "objectively".

 

[Kelsey]

I wish I could just not take the comics seriously. But I respect the fact that they're canon, so it's impossible to ignore them in my opinion. They're a legit part of the story, no matter how much I hate them sometimes.

I'm glad I don't have this attitude. Don't get me wrong, it's totally valid, but I guess I'm more... laidback about canon. I won't deny it, but if I'm not enjoying it, I won't partake. Maybe it's because I write fanfiction, so I'm just used to taking the universe in my own hands, but I work around things I don't like. If the comics are bad, I'd rather just rewatch some great Spike moments, thanks. =D

 

[Superstar]

but I have to say that, for me at least, these just aren't the same characters that I watched for 7 years and 5 years respectively.

Oh no, they're the same characters.
People are mixing character and characterization.
The actors and crew (lighting, editor, director etc) in the latter part bring the characters to life on TV, but the characters themselves remain constant.

At best, I see these as pretty much what the previous comic series was: stories BASED ON the series, but not necessarily canon. That's one reason that the latest developments in Season 8 seem to be, at best, some sort of parallel universe Buffy, more like better quality fan fiction that anything else.

Same trap I fell into regarding the previous comic series, but like Faith, I climbed out of that grave. I have since struck the "c" word from my vocabulary by placing it into a cannon and firing it into the sun.

There is no spoon, Neo.

Oh, and not parallel universe.
I was bored and decided to surf around on ********* this morning (traitor, I know) and noticed someone named Emmie has the right idea, and posted it back in January. She just lacks two things: the scope of her hypothesis is too small [she only limits it to season 8; when it's everything from A to Z for 12 televised seasons plus the comics], and the base fairytale on which Buffy is founded. So it seems others have also begun to catch on to the "reality" of the situation.

As Mr. Whedon states over and over, it's all about the journey. This one has been one long and winding yellow-bricked road over the years.