Scythe Matters

[nerd4hire]

OK, so The First wants the scythe. Why? Does he just want to slice and dice, or does he want more.

We know his ultimate plan is to become corporeal by tranferring his energy into humans. Could the scythe help him with that? The scythe does transfer dark energy (slayer demon energy) into all potentials at the end of Chosen. Was that the kind of thing the First wanted to do all along, only with itself?

I think Anya offers a hint to all this when she talks about the necessity of a catalyst and a conduit when transferring energy across dimensions. It's in Get It Done.

DAWN
Willow, how would you get Buffy back?

WILLOW
That's what I'm saying"”I don't even know.

DAWN
OK, but if another witch was to do it, where would she start?

WILLOW
Uh, physics, principles, basic laws...

DAWN
Such as?

WILLOW
Uh, conservation of energies. You can't really create or destroy anything, only transfer.

Anya scoffs.

DAWN
I'm sorry, are you helping?

ANYA
No, but at least I'm not galloping off in the wrong direction.

WILLOW
Magic works off physics.

ANYA
Not without a catalyst. If you're talking about transferring energies, you need some kind of conduit.

WILLOW
Like a-a Kraken's tooth.

ANYA
Yeah, skin of Draconis, um, ground up Baltic stones, something...

DAWN
OK. Good.

 

[The Arcane]

N4H, this could very easily just be me having a slow day and not recalling the dialogue but i'm not certain where you got the idea about the First needing to transfer his energy into humans in order to be made corporeal.

I do recall the First suggesting that it was a part of all humanity and as long as evil existed then it would thrive.

THE FIRST/JONATHAN
What do you think the world's going to be like after that? News flash. There's not going to be a Slayer-gang anymore. But there is going to be evil. And as long as there is evil, I live. And as long as I live, you can dwell at my side.

And i remember that it also stated that it's aim was to become corporeal.

THE FIRST/CALEB
I will overrun this earth. And when my army outnumbers the humans on this earth, the scales will tip and I will be made flesh.

However, i really don't recall the part about him needing to transfer his energy into humans to do so. Can you point me towards the dialogue?

 

[Xander]

I think The First mentioned it when talking to Caleb, possibly just before they merged (or whatever the right verb would be). I think The First said something along the lines of soon "being in every man, woman and child"...been a while.

 

[The Arcane]

Okay, thanks to Xander helping to jog my memory (hey, it's been a really long day okay and the old memory isn't what it once was 😛) i've managed to track down what i'm guessing N4H is talking about ...

THE FIRST/BUFFY: And for me as well. Look, when this is all over and our armies spring forth and our will sweeps the world, I will be able to enter every man, woman and child on this earth, just as I enter you.

So from that i can sort of see where you are coming from but i think you may have mistaken one aspect of your theory. Yes, the First talks about entering every man, woman and child on earth, and yes, it talks about being made corporeal at the point where evil outweighs good on Earth, but not quite in that order, if you look two of the statements above.

The First's becoming corporeal would seem to be reliant on his army of Turok Han and their outnumbering the humans on Earth. After his army leaves the Hellmouth and overruns humanity the scales will be heavily tipped towards evil on Earth the First will be made corporeal, or so it claims to Buffy. At that point, so it says to Caleb, it will have the power to enter all of humankind.

So, assuming your idea is correct, it would already be corporeal at the point it needed to use the scythe, rather than needing the scythe to help give itself form, if you get what i'm saying.

But beyond that one aspect i do think you may have a point. What it wants to do, once corporeal, is a very similar process to what Willow did with the scythe when she activated all the potentials and created an army of slayers. Perhaps the First did want to use the weapon to do something similar itself.

However, there is the possibility that it didn't actually want the scythe for anything at all, itself. It just wanted to make sure that Buffy never got her hands on it. But i'm starting to like your idea better, lol! 🙂

 

[Wicked]

Yeah, my only theory was that it wanted to stop Buffy getting it, knowing its the only thing Buffy could use to stop it.

 

[nerd4hire]

So from that i can sort of see where you are coming from but i think you may have mistaken one aspect of your theory. Yes, the First talks about entering every man, woman and child on earth, and yes, it talks about being made corporeal at the point where evil outweighs good on Earth, but not quite in that order, if you look two of the statements above.

I don't know. Does the order matter? To me what's more important is the manner. The First wants to be able to enter all men as energy, similarly to the way it enters Caleb. This is it's ultimate goal.

So how does it hope to accomplish this?

We know it wants the scythe. It wants it for more than it's usefullness as a martial arts weapon, because that would just be silly. If it only wants it to keep it away from Buffy, why would Caleb bring it to Buffy's home town? Why not hide it better, or try to destroy it. Why are they trying to release it from the stone? No they are not trying to destroy it. They're trying to release it. This is the image given us when the Bringer's are trying to cut it away from the stone with cutting torches.

So if The First is paying so much attention to acquiring the scythe we have to ask ourselves why.

We know the scythe can be used as a catalyst to transfer the dark demon energy of the slayer to multiple humans. Willow uses it for that purpose. We know The First wants to transfer dark demonish energy to multiple humans. Is it possible there's a clue there?

 

[Wicked]

Did caleb bring it? I thought it was always there. If caleb could move it then surely he could release it. It was after all in a big rock

 

[nerd4hire]

Remember when Andrew and Spike went on the road trip to the monastery?

Didn't the Scythe used to be at the monastery, then Caleb came and got it?

And it's a variation of the King Arthur "sword in the stone" story. There are mystic forces protecting it. I think the cutting torch thing is meant more just to show us The First wants the scythe out of the stone.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Caleb didn't bring it, it was already there, I think, He just went there and got the message then went to Sunnydale?

One problem though the scythe is not used to transfer dark energy into Humans, it transfers dark energy into potential slayers, otherwise every human would have been activated as a slayer.

 

[nerd4hire]

Caleb didn't bring it, it was already there, they just tried to get it.

Where does it say that? Yes the scythe was already in Sunnydale at the time of the road trip, but didn't Spike and Andrew discover the scythe used to be at the monastery, and was then brought from there to Sunnydale by Caleb? That was the impression I got.

One problem though the scythe is not used to transfer dark energy into Humans, it transfers dark energy into potential slayers, otherwise every human would have been activated as a slayer.

Potential Slayers are humans. They are also of course potential slayers. Nevertheless the principle is the same. The technicality doesn't matter. Dark energy is transfered from a dark source to a human host.

What I'm proposing is a Season 7 emergence of a Conduit through which dark energy could be transported from one dimension to another. The First Evil is not Slayer energy, but it can be seen as similar in it's construct. All humans are not potential slayers, but they are similar in their construct.

 

[The Arcane]

I don't know. Does the order matter? To me what's more important is the manner. The First wants to be able to enter all men as energy, similarly to the way it enters Caleb. This is it's ultimate goal.

Well, no, the order doesn't matter so much to the later part of your idea but it seemed you were under the impression that the First needed it to become corporeal (which was what had initially thrown my understanding of what you were suggesting) so i just wanted to clarify the details.

Regarding the rest though, as i said before, i do think that your idea is very plausible. If the First actually did have a use in mind for the scythe, beyond keeping it from Buffy, then what you suggest could well have been it.

However, you are mistaken in that the scythe was at the monastery. Caleb only found the message there, as seen in Empty Places:

"It is not for thee. It is for her alone to wield."

The Guardian makes it very clear to Buffy that the scythe has always been hidden away in Sunnydale, or on the land that Sunnydale would eventually be founded on:

GUARDIAN
Forged there, it was put to use right here... to kill the last pure demon that walked upon the earth. The rest were already driven under. And then there were men here, and then there were monks. And then there was a town... and now there is you. And the scythe remained hidden.

From that we know that the scythe was used to kill the last pure demon. After that the scythe was hidden nearby, likely in the very spot where the vineyard would eventually be built, waiting to fulfill the roll that the Guardians knew it was destined for. To help Buffy seal the hellmouth once and for all.

 

[nerd4hire]

Yeah, I know. You guys got me to thinking yesterday, and I went back, and re-watched the shows last night. I came across the same stuff you did. I was coming here to eat crow, and point out those quotes, but you beat me to it. 🙂

Interesting thing though, the original question was "Is the First only interested in keeping the scythe from Buffy, or does it have it's own plan for it."

You'll recall when Caleb discovers that tablet he flies into a rage. Again, the tablet says,

"It is not for thee. It is for her alone to wield."

This would seem to suggest Caleb is not happy when he discovers only the Slayer can wield the full power of the scythe. Reason would suggest the First therefore had a plan to use that power for it's own purposes.

I also double-checked on whether the First wanted to release the scythe - which would suggest he had a plan for it - or simply destroy it.

The Bringers are clearly trying to release the scythe. They are not just using cutting torches, they are chipping away at the stone with hammer and chisel.

Buffy get's the final word on the full power of the scythe, and whether or not the First wants to make use of it though. It's from End of Days.

GILES
Right. Um... (sits on the bed) any chance that it might be something other than a tool for killing things?

BUFFY
The First's guys clearly wanted it out of that stone. It's not just a tool. It's important.

On this though...

[

Well, no, the order doesn't matter so much to the later part of your idea but it seemed you were under the impression that the First needed it to become corporeal (which was what had initially thrown my understanding of what you were suggesting) so i just wanted to clarify the details.

I would suggest it's more likely the vulnerability in the Chosen line the First plans to exploit in Season 7 would have something to do with the part of it's plan that involves transferring it's energy into human hosts. It seems to me the First could probably have opened the Seal of Danzalthar and attacked with it's armies at any time in the past, but it couldn't become corporeal. The corporeal thing seems central to it's plan. It wants to be corporeal, and it's not. This suggests it can't without something new happening.

The First plans to lead armies against human reality, and also enter humans as energy taking control of them thus becoming corporeal. I'm still not sure how the order in which this happens would cause the one thing to contradict the other?

My suggestion was simply the scythe can be used to transfer dark energy into human (Potential Slayer) hosts. The First wants to transfer dark energy into human hosts. I'm not sure I understand how it would it be unreasonable to suggest the two things may be connected, whether armies attack first, or not?

 

[alluring dejection]

You'll recall when Caleb discovers that tablet he flies into a rage. Again, the tablet says,

Oh wow. I completely forgot about that. I didn't catch that at all. I had always thought, as others said, that he just wanted to keep it away from Buffy. Whoa. Good job on picking that up. I like that theory better. :]

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Yeah with all of your new quotes you have made it a very possible theory, very interesting!

 

[The Arcane]

I would suggest it's more likely the vulnerability in the Chosen line the First plans to exploit in Season 7 would have something to do with the part of it's plan that involves transferring it's energy into human hosts. It seems to me the First could probably have opened the Seal of Danzalthar and attacked with it's armies at any time in the past, but it couldn't become corporeal. The corporeal thing seems central to it's plan. It wants to be corporeal, and it's not. This suggests it can't without something new happening.

The First plans to lead armies against human reality, and also enter humans as energy taking control of them thus becoming corporeal. I'm still not sure how the order in which this happens would cause the one thing to contradict the other?

My suggestion was simply the scythe can be used to transfer dark energy into human (Potential Slayer) hosts. The First wants to transfer dark energy into human hosts. I'm not sure I understand how it would it be unreasonable to suggest the two things may be connected, whether armies attack first, or not?

I'm not so sure about that, if i'm honest. I think that the opportunity for the First to make any move at all was only brought about with Buffy's resurrection. Until then he had been forced to accept the status quo of the balance between good and evil. The disruption in the slayer line, as we have said before, allowed this to change.

I still believe, given the information we have, that the scythe was nothing at all to do with the First becoming corporeal. That was purely controlled by the balance of good and evil on earth and so would have been brought about when his army left the Hellmouth. Evil outweighted good, giving him physical form.

I think that the scythe, if the First truly had any personal use for it at all, was about drawing further power. Becoming corporeal wasn't going to be enough. In fact once the First was in solid form it would be a lot more vulnerable to attack from Buffy. However, if it used the scythe to draw power into itself by connecting to all of humanity then it would likely become unbeatable.

So whilst i do agree that the First probably did have a purpose for the scythe i don't believe that it was to help it become corporeal. The text just does not lean towards that enough. In fact, when you think about it, how could it have even wielded the scythe to draw power into itself until it was corporeal in the first place?

 

[nerd4hire]

I still believe, given the information we have, that the scythe was nothing at all to do with the First becoming corporeal. That was purely controlled by the balance of good and evil on earth and so would have been brought about when his army left the Hellmouth. Evil outweighted good, giving him physical form.

I think that the scythe, if the First truly had any personal use for it at all, was about drawing further power. Becoming corporeal wasn't going to be enough. In fact once the First was in solid form it would be a lot more vulnerable to attack from Buffy. However, if it used the scythe to draw power into itself by connecting to all of humanity then it would likely become unbeatable.

So whilst i do agree that the First probably did have a purpose for the scythe i don't believe that it was to help it become corporeal. The text just does not lean towards that enough. In fact, when you think about it, how could it have even wielded the scythe to draw power into itself until it was corporeal in the first place?

Sound interesting. Request though. If the text supports this theory more than the one I presented, could you show me where?

What I mean is I quoted Anya describing how energy is transported across dimensions. I used textual references to show you how the scythe could be used according to that formula to transfer dark energy such as that of the First through it, using it as a catalyst, or a conduit in the manner Anya textually suggests. The "entering all men" quote shows the first plans to become corporeal in a way the scythe could facilitate. The text shows the First had a priority in obtaining full control of the power of the scythe, and in becoming corporeal. It is from textual references I suggest there may be a connection between the two.

But you've seen all that. I suggest we leave the nit-pick portion of the thread, for now. You tell me you have a theory that has more textual support. Cool. Could I see that support?

Edit: Oh and the First doesn't have to personally touch the scythe to have energy funnelled through it. Willow performed the operation without receiving any power herself. All the First needs is an aide capable of performing the spell, and the First does have connections.

 

[The Arcane]

Sound interesting. Request though. If the text supports this theory more than the one I presented, could you show me where?

What I mean is I quoted Anya describing how energy is transported across dimensions. I used textual references to show you how the scythe could be used according to that formula to transfer dark energy such as that of the First through it, using it as a catalyst, or a conduit in the manner Anya textually suggests. The "entering all men" quote shows the first plans to become corporeal in a way the scythe could facilitate. The text shows the First had a priority in obtaining full control of the power of the scythe, and in becoming corporeal. It is from textual references I suggest there may be a connection between the two.

But you've seen all that. I suggest we leave the nit-pick portion of the thread, for now. You tell me you have a theory that has more textual support. Cool. Could I see that support?

I think you may have misunderstood what i was disagreeing with, N4H. In a sense it is the nit-picky part of the thread that i think is causing the confusion.

I absolutely agree that the text suggests that the First did have a planned use for the scythe and i also totally agree that the scythe could clearly have been used as a conduit for his plan to enter all of humanity. That seems quite clear, from what you have put forward.

The only thing that i was suggesting was not supported by the text was your idea that the "becoming corporeal" part of it's plan was related to it's using the scythe. I think they are two seperate things.

In the posts i've already made in this thread i've shown where i'm coming from with regard to the order i see things going in. That the text actually supports a specific order of things and that this order involves the First becoming corporeal prior to actually using the scythe.

Firstly, the First releases his army from the Hellmouth and is made corporeal ...

THE FIRST/CALEB
I will overrun this earth. And when my army outnumbers the humans on this earth, the scales will tip and I will be made flesh.

Followed by it's plan to infuse itself into all of humanity ...

THE FIRST/BUFFY: And for me as well. Look, when this is all over and our armies spring forth and our will sweeps the world, I will be able to enter every man, woman and child on this earth, just as I enter you.

So, as i said before, the two lines of dialogue support my idea that the First intends to first become corporeal and then enter all of humankind. The First is stating that all it will take for him to be made flesh is to upset the balance of good and evil on earth by releasing his army. Nothing more. The next "entering humanity" phase of it's plan, therefore, has to have a greater purpose.

Basically, whilst i have no issue at all with your theory that it may have intended to use the scythe as a conduit for it's essence, i really do think that the text leans more towards my idea that the First had another reason for wanting to enter humanity. Whether that was as a means of controlling or influencing them or merely to draw enough power into itself to become unbeatable, is open to further speculation, but i truly don't think it needed the scythe to become corporeal.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Ok I have another thing, When the Slayer touches the scythe, she gets a 'feeling' there is something in the scythe that is connected to the Slayer, This is what Willow used to activate the power in all the potentials, I don't think it has every been said that the scythe could move any dark energy, such as the First, which was an external dark Energy!

 

[The Arcane]

Ok I have another thing, When the Slayer touches the scythe, she gets a 'feeling' there is something in the scythe that is connected to the Slayer, This is what Willow used to activate the power in all the potentials, I don't think it has every been said that the scythe could move any dark energy, such as the First, which was an external dark Energy!

Yeah, i do think that is an issue. It could be that the scythe was created using the essence of the slayer line and therefore would not be capable of being used for evil. That isn't certain however. It is possible that the scythe is simply a powerful energy conduit, as N4H suggests, which would mean that the First could adapt it to his own ends.

 

[nerd4hire]

So, as i said before, the two lines of dialogue support my idea that the First intends to first become corporeal and then enter all of humankind. The First is stating that all it will take for him to be made flesh is to upset the balance of good and evil on earth by releasing his army. Nothing more. The next "entering humanity" phase of it's plan, therefore, has to have a greater purpose.

Basically, whilst i have no issue at all with your theory that it may have intended to use the scythe as a conduit for it's essence, i really do think that the text leans more towards my idea that the First had another reason for wanting to enter humanity. Whether that was as a means of controlling or influencing them or merely to draw enough power into itself to become unbeatable, is open to further speculation, but i truly don't think it needed the scythe to become corporeal.

Oh OK, I think I get what you're saying now. You're not saying there is a superior text referenced conclusion as to why and how the First plans to use the scythe, you're saying the text doesn't support my proposal.

It's true there is no clear-cut, black and white explanation offered in the text as to how or why the First plans to use the scythe. In fact the 2 possibillities you offer are pretty much personal fabrications of imagination. That's cool. You pretty much have to do that, don't you? When the writers won't offer you an explanation you pretty much have to create you're own.

Personally what works for me is I have to seek out something like a text supported A + B =C solution. It's just the way my brain works.

What I wind up with is something like -

1. The First wants to become corporeal.

2. The First wants the scythe

3. The only passage suggesting a possibility as to how the First might become corporeal is the one where he talks about entering all men. This could have the effect of making it corporeal. Will and Energy will be given control of matter.

4. The demon energy of the slayer can be tranformed to humans in a manner similar to the one described by the first. We see this in Chosen - dark demon slayer energy being transfered into multiple human targets.

5. The First can be seem as being made of energy similar in construct, if not of the same source as demon energy.

6. Anya offers an explanation as to how energy can be transformed into a matter across dimensions. You need a catalyst, and or a conduit.

7. The events of Chosen show us the Scythe can be used as a catalyst, and or conduit.

I put all these together, and I get a conclusion that satisfies my need for rationality. All that I need to do now is offer it up for critique, and see if it can pass the test of opposition. So far I think it's doing quite well.

In fact I think we can go back now, and I can once more request the picking of nits. I was under the impression I was going to see a superior text-supported conclusion as to why the First wanted the scythe and how it planned to use it. I wanted to see that first, before we continued with the challenge of critique. It doesn't appear that's coming so let's continue.

Here are those 2 quotes again.

THE FIRST/CALEB
I will overrun this earth. And when my army outnumbers the humans on this earth, the scales will tip and I will be made flesh.

Followed by it's plan to infuse itself into all of humanity ...

THE FIRST/BUFFY: And for me as well. Look, when this is all over and our armies spring forth and our will sweeps the world, I will be able to enter every man, woman and child on this earth, just as I enter you.

The first quote suggests the First will be made flesh around the time the armies of the First outnumber humans. The second suggests the First will become corporeal around the time the armies of the first are attacking and the First's will is in control.

It's all pretty vague, and I don't see a clear-cut order, or time-time table. I definitely don't see anything that definitively, or to be honest, even mildly suggests the First is corporeal before it enters humanity. What am I missing?

And Black Eye Guy when I say dark demon energy, I am talking specifically about the the dark, demon energy of the slayer we saw in Get It Done. I suggest it's possible to draw a comparison of similarity between that, and the dark energy of the First.