Scythe Matters

[The Arcane]

See, the problem i'm having with this part of the whole debate is how important you are making the issue of the First becoming corporeal when i really don't see that being it's ultimate end plan, or even that big a deal to it.

What you are proposing is that the First is planning on entering all of humanity with help from the power of the scythe, in order to make itself solid. What i'm trying to say is that i really never saw the becoming solid thing as being a major issue to it. I genuinely think that it only even mentioned the fact it would become corporeal to Buffy in response to her suggestion that he was ultimately powerless to do anything but talk ...

BUFFY
Have you ever considered a cool name? I mean, since you're incorporeal and basically powerless... how about the Taunter? Strikes fear in the hearts of--
THE FIRST/CALEB
I will overrun this earth. And when my army outnumbers the humans on this earth, the scales will tip and I will be made flesh.

This was the one and only reference to the First becoming solid made anywhere in the show and that was made directly after Buffy had brought up the fact it was intangible and powerless to physically harm her. To me that doesn't suggest the First's endgame so much as it's reply to a verbal attack. The First wasn't revealing what it's ultimate goal was. It was simply stating the fact that it would become solid once evil outweighed good on earth.

And again, that one line of dialogue itself offers up both cause and effect. The "cause" being the Turok Han army coming to earth and it's "effect" being the fact the the First will become solid. It isn't implied that any other event is needed for the First to become corporeal, just the need for the balance of power to tip towards evil.

Admittedly, my theory that the First needs the scythe to increase it's own power levels is purely speculation but, as you say, without any factual information we have no choice but to speculate.

I do think you are on to something when you say that the First wanted the scythe and had a plan for it once it was out of the rock. I also think that your theory that it intended to use the scythe to enter humanity the world over holds a great deal of water, given what we know. What i don't believe is that it needed the scythe to become solid. More importantly i don't believe that becoming solid was remotely high on it's list of priorities. It just so happened that it would become solid once evil outweighed good.

Whatever it's endgame was, and whether or not the plan actually involved the scythe, there is not enough evidence to make me believe that becoming corporeal was anything more than an unimportant side effect of it's plan to the First. Something that just would happen, rather than anything it actually cared about.

 

[nerd4hire]

This was the one and only reference to the First becoming solid made anywhere in the show

Not true. Off the top of my head there's also this...

BUFFY/FIRST
And the only man strong enough to be my vessel, and I know you feel me, but I know why they grab at each other. To feel. I want to feel. I want to wrap my hands around some innocent neck and feel it crack.

I've been considering the "Scythe for energy transfer" theory though, and there may be a larger problem with it.

The First can already take control of at least selected individuals in Season 7. It does this with Spike and the cops in Touched. It can transfer energy into a willing receptacle such as Caleb.

What it can't do is take complete control of that individual to the point the body is under the direct and constant control of it's will. There is always at least a remnant of the individuality of the body's original owner. The First can't enter a body, and

wrap my hands around some innocent neck and feel it crack

.

There's nothing about the scythe's power to transfer energy which tells us that would change through the power of the scythe alone.

Nevertheless the scythe can transfer energy in a manner that can be both targeted, or generalized. It can target large numbers of selected individuals and perform a kind of energy rape on them. It's precise. This is something the First appears to lack.

Could this be what the first means when it keeps saying the end game of it's plan is to outnumber the current inhabitants of human reality? Will this give it the final power of control over the bodies it plans to possess?

 

[The Arcane]

Y'know, i'd totally forgotten about that comment. It definately does suggest that becoming solid was something that the First desired rather than simply being a side effect of it's plan. Whilst i still have trouble linking the "becoming corporeal" issue to the scythe i can certainly admit that the First seems to want to be able to do a little smash and crash of it's own.

I'm not sure about the scythe being an instrument of precise energy transfer though. It was only used for the one spell, that being to activate the slayers worldwide, and that is not proof that it could direct power precisely.

It is just as possible that the scythe released a wave of power that covered the entire world, passing through everyone it came into contact with. Obviously the only people who would be effected by it are those with the dormant slayer ability anyway. No precise direction of energy needed.

I think it more likely that the First would want to use it for it's ability to effect an instant global change. If the scythe could be used to send out the influence of the First instantly to every human on the planet, rather than just select individuals as we had seen before, then this would prevent any real chance of rebellion. Everyone would be effected at once. Sort of similar to the way Jasmine wanted to use television transmission to control everyone on AtS.

 

[nerd4hire]

Well that one's got me scratching my head a little. The scythe did something. We watched it do it. It was an integral part of a spell that picked multiple targets precisely from a large general area, and forced energy into them irregardless of whether or not the individual wanted the procedure performed.

And you're saying, if I understand you correctly, we should either pretend that doesn't matter, or it could be something else. Why does this remind me of the Wizard of OZ? Oh I know. "Pay no attention to the man behind the screen." 🙂

Although you know, I have to admit, I kind of like that Jasmine thing. I find it intriguing and appealing.

Edit:

Oh and speaking of intriguing, compare these 2 quotes -

Caleb and the First talking

Look, when this is all over and our armies spring forth and our will sweeps the world, I will be able to enter every man, woman and child on this earth, just as I enter you.

Buffy and the First talking

And when my army outnumbers the humans on this earth, the scales will tip and I will be made flesh.

Don't you think the similarity of those two quotes not only make the one support the other, but the two together focus in on exactly what the First is implying?

Yes the armies have to outnumber the humans, but that in no way affects whether or not the scythe can be used to facilitate any plan the First may have before or after that happens. The thing worth noticing I think is how the First plans to both enter all humans, and to be made flesh. I suggest the possibility of a connection between the two.

 

[The Arcane]

Well that one's got me scratching my head a little. The scythe did something. We watched it do it. It was an integral part of a spell that picked multiple targets precisely from a large general area, and forced energy into them irregardless of whether or not the individual wanted the procedure performed.

And you're saying, if I understand you correctly, we should either pretend that doesn't matter, or it could be something else. Why does this remind me of the Wizard of OZ? Oh I know. "Pay no attention to the man behind the screen." 🙂

Although you know, I have to admit, I kind of like that Jasmine thing. I find it intriguing and appealing.

I'm not entirely sure where you are getting that impression from, N4H. What i said had very little to do with pretending anything didn't matter. I was debating your use of the word "precise". This following comment being the most obvious example ...

Nevertheless the scythe can transfer energy in a manner that can be both targeted, or generalized. It can target large numbers of selected individuals and perform a kind of energy rape on them. It's precise. This is something the First appears to lack.

It seemed to me as if you were suggesting that Willow used to the scythe to directly focus the "activation spell" (for want of a better term) into all the potential girls around the world. I simply was putting forward that we could not make the claim that the scythe was able to do any such thing.

What we saw was Willow drawing the energy of the slayer power out of the scythe and then transmitting said energy around the world. The energy was not being focused to just the potential slayers but to everyone, everywhere. It obviously only activated the potential girls but there is no evidence to say that the energy did not pass through the entire population of the planet, leaving the majority totally unaffected.

Which raises another question in my mind. What if the scythe is not the conduit but the source of the power? Do we actually know that it wasn't Willow herself that was sending the power of the slayer around the world after drawing it from the scythe? If that is the case then it would make the scythe useless to the First as it would be Willow that he actually needed to send out his own dark power to the human population.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Which raises another question in my mind. What if the scythe is not the conduit but the source of the power? Do we actually know that it wasn't Willow herself that was sending the power of the slayer around the world after drawing it from the scythe? If that is the case then it would make the scythe useless to the First as it would be Willow that he actually needed to send out his own dark power to the human population.

See that's what I thought when I said

When the Slayer touches the scythe, she gets a 'feeling' there is something in the scythe that is connected to the Slayer, This is what Willow used to activate the power in all the potentials, I don't think it has every been said that the scythe could move any dark energy, such as the First, which was an external dark Energy!

Although It did not come across so well, lol. But if you look at that bit in Chosen again, you see Willow touch the scythe, and then the power travels up through her, entering her. And that's what allows her to activate the potentials, the well of slayer power in the Scythe!

 

[The Arcane]

Agreed, BEG!

I just rewatched the part of the episode we have been discussing and now i'm pretty convinced that it was Willow doing the transfering of power. The scythe was pretty much just the "battery" she needed as a source of slayer power.

Okay, that was a hell of a lot of discussion for nothing, lol! So, okay then. If we were to eliminate this theory as the reason why the First would need the scythe, what other reasons might there be?

My first instinct is to just go with my original instinct and say that it was aware that the weapon was a powerful source of ... well ... power for the slayer and that it simply did not want it in the hands of the good guys. It maybe wanted it out of the rock simply to have it moved to another location, far away from the Hellmouth. Or maybe it was aware of a way to destroy it if it was taken to a certain place, kind of like Frodo needing to take the One Ring to Mordor.

See that Andrew'esque Lord of the Rings analogy, there? I'm so proud! 😀

Off the top of my head i can't really see how the First could use the scythe to it's own advantage so destroying it or hiding it well away from Buffy was probably it's best bet.

 

[nerd4hire]

Agreed, BEG!
Okay, that was a hell of a lot of discussion for nothing, lol! So, okay then. If we were to eliminate this theory as the reason why the First would need the scythe, what other reasons might there be?

Wohhh...slow down there cowboy. 🙂 You're a little quick eliminating something you haven't disproved yet.

The scythe is connected to the power of the slayer. Buffy and Faith feel it. There's no text reference saying the scythe itself is the power.

It appears to be a conduit activating through the slayer. In Chosen they make a big fuss about situating Willow and the scythe over top the spot where the slayer will be.

Two quotes appear to tell us the first will enter all humans, and this appears to connect with it's desire to become corporeal. This requires the tranference of energy. Anya explains how energy can be transfered through a catalyst/conduit.

However you enterpret the text the scythe is necessary to spark the process that transfers the energy of the slayer. This makes it a catalyst. At some point the energy is passing through the scythe. This makes it a conduit.

This is all text supported. If you want to make the scythe a battery all of a sudden you're going beyond the text.

There's this quote by Joss Whedon I can't help going back to whenever ever I consider the complexities of Season 7. He was answering a question concerning why some people didn't get S-7. He responded something like he didn't understand why people wouldn't get the season, because to him it was "almost didactic in it's clarity".

To me one of the things that statement means is he wants you to believe what the text tells you.

If they make a point of showing you how the source of the slayer power lies in a black demon energy, then tell you the scythe is connected to that, then show energy being drawn from the scythe, and distributed to specific targets you can believe that. You don't have to re-write the text.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Wohhh...slow down there cowboy. 🙂 You're a little quick eliminating something you haven't disproved yet.

The scythe is connected to the power of the slayer. Buffy and Faith feel it. There's no text reference saying the scythe itself is the power.

Actually there Kinda is, think back to Buffy's speech in Chosen:

Buffy: Tomorrow, Willow will use the essence of the scythe to change our destiny.

The Essence of the Scythe, This says that the essence that hold the slayer's powers is held within the scythe.

It appears to be a conduit activating through the slayer. In Chosen they make a big fuss about situating Willow and the scythe over top the spot where the slayer will be.

It is not really that she be on top of the slayer, they just mention that The Principals office was right above the Seal, to the Hell Mouth.

Two quotes appear to tell us the first will enter all humans, and this appears to connect with it's desire to become corporeal. This requires the tranference of energy. Anya explains how energy can be transfered through a catalyst/conduit.

However you enterpret the text the scythe is necessary to spark the process that transfers the energy of the slayer. This makes it a catalyst. At some point the energy is passing through the scythe. This makes it a conduit.

This is all text supported. If you want to make the scythe a battery all of a sudden you're going beyond the text.

It's not really going beyond the Text, if you look at the moment in Chosen, you can see the Power come to life from within the Scythe

 

[The Arcane]

Admittedly it isn't entirely disproven that the scythe can be used in the way you suggest but you have to accept that there is less and less reason to make that assumption as we go along.

My issue is basically about what you think that the First wants to do with the scythe and the fact that it isn't shown to be able to do that function.

All we know about the scythe is that it is connected to the power of the slayer. Now that would make the scythe a source of the slayer power, admittedly, which is why i used the term "battery" as that is basically what Willow used it as. What we don't have any proof of whatsoever is that the scythe itself can emit power of any kind.

We never once saw the scythe channel power out of itself. We saw Willow draw power from the scythe and then transmit that power through herself and out across the world. She was the conduit for the power once it had left the scythe.

Now, even if we were to assume that the scythe was capable of channeling any kind of mystical energy, including that of the First, we would have to ask the question of why the First would even need it for that purpose. Willow needed the scythe as part of the spell she performed because she, herself, had no direct link to the slayer power. The First already has access to it's own power/energy and so would not need the scythe as a conduit to it. The First has also already proven that it can emit it's own power, as seen with Caleb, so even if we knew that the scythe was capable of emitting energy it would still not make sense that the First needed it for that purpose.

So what it boils down to for me is that all we know for a fact about the scythe is that it is a source of slayer power. There is no evidence that it can actually channel said power on it's own because Willow was responsible for that. With that in mind i think that the leap of speculation needed to assume that the First needs it to channel it's own power is too great.

Just for a second forget the scythe entirely. We know that the First is already connected to it's own energy and we know that it has the ability to channel it's own energy into others. Therefore, in order to connect with every man, woman and child on earth it would not need a conduit in the first place, it would need extra strength. It would need to become more powerful. Unless there is a way that the scythe could have been used to draw the power of the slayer into the First itself then i really don't see how it could have been any use at all to the First's plans.

Which does beg the question, could the First have fed off the power of the slayer line through the scythe in order to boost it's own strength and thereby connect with the whole of humanity at the same time?

 

[nerd4hire]

Buffy: Tomorrow, Willow will use the essence of the scythe to change our destiny.

The Essence of the Scythe, This says that the essence that hold the slayer's powers is held within the scythe.

Well that's a pretty creative interpretation don't you think? How does mentioning the essence of something automatically imply it only has one use. How the does the fact something can be used to affect something else automatically imply a physical union between both objects. The essence of a rose, and the person who smells it aren't the same object.

It is not really that she be on top of the slayer, they just mention that The Principals office was right above the Seal, to the Hell Mouth.

And the slayer will be where? Right below the seal in the Hell mouth.

To be precise there's this -

ROBIN
Willow, my office is straight through there. (points)

BUFFY
It's right over the seal.

There's also the bit in lessons where Xander makes a point of showing Buffy on the blueprints how the principals office is directly over the Hellmouth. This is where they want Willow in Chosen. They want her to do the scythe spell directly over where the slayer stands in the Hellmouth.

It's not really going beyond the Text, if you look at the moment in Chosen, you can see the Power come to life from within the Scythe

If you choose to you can. In the Angel episode Spin the Bottle (I think it was) Angel as Liam saw a radio as a box in which little men sang. Is that what it was?

All we really know from what we see is power is channelling from the Scythe into Willow. We know when Willow touched the Scythe it happened like the scythe was the spark. We know the power is used to find specific targets, and enter them with the energy of the slayer - an energy we know from Get It Done is dark and demon. We know all that because that's what we watched happen.

And TW, I almost forgot. I have to admit what? You were just joking right. No offence, but if I'm scoring this debate you guys have to find some textual support to back your arguements up real quick, because right now you're way behind on points.

Hey there's one thing I'd like to make clear though, because I'm not sure either of you get it. I'm not saying mine is the one, true and only possibility. I'm not even saying I'm necessarily correct. Joss could right his canon comic tomorrow, and make me completely incorrect with something I haven't even considered.

What I am saying is if I follow Joss's instructions I have to believe what the text tells me, then use it like little sign-posts to find the rationale explanation to Season 7 Joss says exists. So far the scythe as energy transfer theory starts me off the best of anything I've seen so far. Yeah I could invent totally new explanations that have nothing to do with the text like TX does, but that isn't what Joss wants me as a viewer to do. He said so.

 

[The Arcane]

N4H, i think both BEG and i get that this idea of yours is a pure speculative theory based on what you have watched on the show. I just tend to think that it requires far too much assumption and filling in the blanks to hold enough water to make it workable.

The difficulty in our side of this debate is that a lot of yours is speculative. We have very little textual evidence to back up our argument simply because you are taking several different points and filling in the blanks yourself. All we are able to really do is point out that several of the basic points you are using don't really make sense, when looked at as a whole.

Can you just answer me these two points that i made in my last post because i do think they are very relevant to the debate and you have yet to reply to them.

Firstly, as i pointed out, there is absolutely no evidence that the scythe can emit energy of any kind. It was a weapon forged for the slayer and linked to the slayer power but that is a far cry from being able to direct the slayer power in any way. For example, a radio can be linked to an electrical source but is not designed to then direct that electrical source outwards. All we actually know of the scythe was that it was connected to the power of the slayer, not that it could control or emit it.

Willow was the conduit of the slayer power once she drew it out of the scythe. The energy passed through her and outwards to the potentials throughout the world. She was the one that sent the power outwards, not the scythe. The scythe was simply the source of the power.

Secondly, and perhaps more relevant to this debate, the First simply did not need to scythe to do what you propose. It already was linked to the energy it intended to send out across the world because the energy was it's own form. So it had no need of a source. Also, it had shown that it was capable of sending that energy into the beings of others, such as Caleb, which proved that it had no need of the scythe for that function either, even if the scythe actually proved capable of doing such a thing, which we cannot say.

So if it did not need the scythe to gain access to it's own power, nor did it need the scythe to send that power out, then what possible use would the scythe have been in doing what you propose?

To summarise, firstly we have seen no evidence that the scythe can actually do what you have suggested, that being emit energy itself. Secondly, even if it could do such a thing it would not be needed as the First already can do that itself.

Which leads me back to the subject of strength, more to the point that the First was not strong enough alone to infect everyone in the world at the same time. What if the First actually needed the scythe because it knew that once it had become a physical entity it could do something similar to Willow but rather than send the slayer power outwards, use it to charge itself up and then send out his own dark energies to the population of earth. This would make a much more reasonable theory given all my above points and still suit your premise that the First wanted the scythe for itself.

 

[nerd4hire]

First of all I want to clarify something, because I'm not sure I made it clear the last time.

The essence of the Scythe is not the same thing as the essence of the slayer.

The essence of something would be the core energy of the thing that makes it what it is. The essence of the slayer would be the energy that makes a human girl a slayer. We saw that. It's the dark demon energy used to create slayers. We saw it in Get It Done.

So we know what the essence of the scythe is not, what is it then? I don't know. Here's a possibility though. Perhaps the essence of the Scythe is a power that allows it to be used as a catalyst, or conduit. Makes as much sense as anything other possibility if you ask me.

In other words the quote concerning the essence of the scythe proves or disproves the sum total of nothing as far as this conversation is concerned.

Look I have to admit. I continue to be baffled by something not exactly scythe related. I'm getting the impression you guys think you've in some way disproved my proposal. All I can do is scratch my head, because by my estimation it remains rock solid acceptable.

First of all let's be clear on what I'm proposing. I suggest it's possible to see a chain of text supported possiblities linked to form a stream of logic leading to a possible conclusion as to what the purpose of the scythe might be.

I'll list them, and re-introduce the support. Please show me how you believe you've proven any or all of this impossible. Support for your claim would be a nice change. I'd be ecstatic if I could see something that didn't rely on fanciful re-interperation of the text, or out-right creation of a brand new fanfic style plot-line. Example: if your going to say the scythe couldn't be a catalyst or a conduit, because it's a battery, show me where it says that in the text. Telling me the essence of the scythe is the same thing as the essence of the slayer, then hoping I'm not going to notice the obvious flaw in that logic isn't going to work. Your support is going to have to actually say what you suggest it does.

If you're going to tell me the First doesn't want control of the scythe, it just wants to keep it from Buffy, don't assume you've proven your point by saying maybe the First was just trying to get the scythe out of the stone to take it, and hide it. What does that prove? And how would you have me debate that even I was silly enough to bother with it. Should I say, "Well why not just take the stone and all then", to which you would answer, "Well maybe there's a spell connecting the stone to the planet", and then I would say what?... "Well maybe they could laser the stone away with starships." My point is, that style of debate through creating alternate possibilities isn't working. If you want to convince me you've proven some kind of point, a real good way to do that is provide actual support from actual text facts.

So anyway here once more is the chain of possibilities I'm proposing. Please show me where you believe you've disproven any or all of the links to the chain, and this time please provide what facts you believe you have to support the claim.

1. The First wants to become corporeal.

Support

It laments over it's inability to touch things in a conversation with Caleb. In fact the First says outright it wants to touch. It tells Buffy it will become coporeal. It makes a similarly styled claim expressing a goal of entering any human it desires..

2. The First wants control of the scythe.

Support

Caleb goes into a rage when he discovers the power of the scythe can only be controlled by the slayer. The Bringers are not trying to destroy the scythe, they are trying to release it from the stone. Buffy says the scythe is not just a tool for killing. It's important. She concludes this from the observation the First was trying to get the scythe out of the stone.

*

At this point I would ask the question is it possible these two desires of the First may be connected? If so how?

*

3. The First wants to enter all men as energy.

Support

It says it does. If it can already do this during the period of Season 7 we didn't see any evidence of that talent. We only saw the First enter a willing servant. The First said it wanted to enter all men the way it entered him.

4. The Scythe can transport dark demon energy and inject it into targeted humans irregardless of whether or not they want it.

Support

The essence of the Slayer is the dark demon energy we see in Get it Done. This is what creates a slayer. The Shadow Men tell us so. In order to create a slayer you have to get it from where it is, and put it in a human girl. Willow does this with the scythe. She situates herself directly over the Hellmouth wher the present slayer is. She places the scythe before her. She puts her hands on the scythe and prepares to begin the spell, telling Kennedy, "Brace yourself". The scythe glows. A beam of light emanates from it. Arms of white energy crawl up Willow's arms. The essence of the slayer is somehow passed through the scythe, possibly into Willow, and definitely into multiple unsuspecting targets of potential slayers throughout the planet, much in the manner the First claims it wants to inject it's energy into multiple human targets.

Anya tells us in order to transport energy, a catalyst and, or, a conduit is necessary. From the description she gives we can see it is possible to describe the scythe as a catalyst-conduit. It also may be possible to see Willow or even the slayer as a conduit. Neither possibility would negate the fact the scythe is at one point transporting energy which would make it a conduit.

*

Here is where the chain of reason based on text ends. I could of course invent a possible method by which the first could complete the final step to become corporeal in that it would have full sensory reception within the human host and control of it, but I couldn't provide text to support the claim, so I won't do it. Simply providing alternative text doesn't provide credibility for one's arguement, or discredit the credibility of the opposing arguement. All it does is say, "Pay no attention to the man behind the screen. Look at the big floaty head".

Nevertheless if we follow the supported reasoning up to this point in my proposal we can see a credible text-supported method the First might use to have it's own energy injected into humans in the manner it says it wants one day to accomplish, and the text suggests may be connected to the First's desire to become corporeal.

*

Now to your two questions TW. Is Willow an integral part of spell? Of course. Is she part of the conduit? It would seem so. Is the scythe a fundamental part of the transference of slayer essence to potential slayers? Undeniably. Willow doesn't do the spell alone. She needs the scythe. As I said, "undeniable". In order to do the transference of energy spell you need the scythe. I can state that as a fact because, well...that's what happens.

On the second question: The scythe is an integral part of the spell needed to tranfer the essence energy of the slayer from the dimension we see it in Get it Done into the multiple specific targets of the potential targets. The First wants to transfer it's energy into multiple, specific, human targets. These are similar transactions of energy, and involve similar dark energies. It's not unreasonable to draw attention to that and suggest a possible connection.

Can the First already transfer it's energy into his willing disciple when that disciple says something, "all right, go ahead. I'm ready"? Yes. Does that mean the First can therefore transfer it's energy into any and all humans at any time it wishes? No it does not. In fact the First tells Caleb that's the kind of energy tranference it hopes for in the future. It's also the kind of energy transference we see accomplished through the scythe spell.

 

[The Arcane]

First of all, N4H, i did take the time to read all of your previous post and as it stands, as you have written it out, it makes perfect sense.

But i'm afraid it comes down to us disagreeing with what we think the scythe is actually capable of. I simply do not think that the scythe is what you suggest and i'm not entirely sure where you get the impression that the scythe is tapping into another source of the slayer power and not simply imbued with it. There is absolutely no evidence that i am aware of that supports the idea that the scythe is a conduit of any kind.

All we factually know is that the scythe contained power that linked it to the slayer. We know that Willow was able to draw that power out of the scythe and send it out around the world. That is all we know.

There is absolutely no evidence to back up the idea that the scythe is either the catalyst or the conduit involved, only that it is most likely to be the source. You have accused me a couple of times now of "fanciful re-interperation of the text" but i fail to see how you are doing anything different with your ideas about the scythe because the little we saw the scythe itself do is a far cry from what you are suggesting it might be capable of.

Just to clarify why i'm dwelling on this point, it is because the issue either proves or disproves your entire theory. If the scythe was a conduit of the power, as you suggest, then perhaps it could also be used to send out other dark energy. If however the scythe simply is imbued with slayer power, a source in itself, then it would be no use whatsoever in transmitting any other form of power, dark or otherwise.

A conduit holds no innate power of it's own. It is simply used to transfer power from one place to another. A source is a container of the power itself. The scythe, as we see it described on the show, is a source, not a conduit. The power has to be drawn out by Willow. The scythe does not do that itself. The scythe is the source but Willow is the conduit through which the power leaves the scythe.

I absolutely get how you are trying to connect the dots of certain loose ends in the script but i honestly believe you are making far too much of an assumption based on the abilities of the scythe that cannot be supported by what we saw onscreen. Unless there is some part of the script i am forgetting of course. If there is some actual evidence that supports your idea that the scythe is anything but a source of slayer power then i'll gladly reconsider but until i see that i really do think your theory is based on far too much assumption and guesswork.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

It's No.4 That I would have a problem with,

4. The Scythe can transport dark demon energy and inject it into targeted humans irregardless of whether or not they want it.

Support

The essence of the Slayer is the dark demon energy we see in Get it Done. This is what creates a slayer. The Shadow Men tell us so. In order to create a slayer you have to get it from where it is, and put it in a human girl. Willow does this with the scythe. She situates herself directly over the Hellmouth wher the present slayer is. She places the scythe before her. She puts her hands on the scythe and prepares to begin the spell, telling Kennedy, "Brace yourself". The scythe glows. A beam of light emanates from it. Arms of white energy crawl up Willow's arms. The essence of the slayer is somehow passed through the scythe, possibly into Willow, and definitely into multiple unsuspecting targets of potential slayers throughout the planet, much in the manner the First claims it wants to inject it's energy into multiple human targets.

But an argument is pointless as it is a difference of interpretation of the text that we are not seeing eye to eye, I see no evidence that the Scythe can transport any dark demon energy and inject it into targeted humans irregardless of whether or not they want it, We have only seen that it can manipulate the Slayer line.

The Line Buffy say's in chosen:

Tomorrow, Willow will use the essence of the scythe to change our destiny.

To me say's that the power is within the scythe, and it is this power that Willow spreads over the other potentials, I would then back this statement up with the fact that in we see the power travel up from the scythe into Willow. And the fact that both Buffy and Faith (only them, not Giles or Willow) as slayers can feel something when they touch the scythe.

This all leads me to believe that the Scythe is somehow connected to the Slayer line, therefore it is able to manipulate the Slayer energy's but I have seen no proof that shows me it can just be a conduit for any Dark energy.

 

[Schillaci]

Why does the First need the scythe out of the stone to do a similar spell to the one performed by Willow? Seems to me it could do its spell right where they found it. If the First is the power, and the scythe is the conduit, it doesn't need to be removed from the stone.

 

[nerd4hire]

Maybe it's time to post this -

36 EXT. CAVE IN DESERT - DAY
Buffy's groggy and disoriented as she regains consciousness. She's sitting on the ground.

BUFFY
What is this?

Buffy stands only to find she is shackled at the wrists and chained to the ground. She struggles against the chains. The three men are standing in front of her in a circle.

BROWN HAT SHADOW MAN
SUBTITLE: We are at the beginning. The source of your strength. The well of the slayer's power.

RED HAT SHADOW MAN
SUBTITLE: This is why we have brought you here.

BUFFY
I thought I brought me here. Listen, you guys. I'm already the slayer, bursting with power. Really don't need any more.

RED HAT SHADOW MAN
SUBTITLE: The First Slayer did not talk so much.

Buffy pulls on her chains again. The men start tapping their staves against the ground, rhythmically. The man in the red hat fetches a box and brings it to the center of the circle, where he takes off the box top.

RED HAT SHADOW MAN
SUBTITLE: Herein lies your truest strength.

BLACK HAT SHADOW MAN
SUBTITLE: The energy of the demon. Its spirit.

BROWN HAT SHADOW MAN
SUBTITLE: Its heart.

BUFFY
This is how you"”

RED HAT SHADOW MAN
SUBTITLE: Created the slayer? (nods) Yes.

Black smoke comes out of the box in long tentacles; it seems sentient as it dances around the circle. The men keep tapping their staves rhythmically.

BROWN HAT SHADOW MAN
SUBTITLE: It must become one with you.

BUFFY
No! (struggles against her chains)

RED HAT SHADOW MAN
SUBTITLE: This will make you ready for the fight.

BUFFY
By making me less human?

RED HAT SHADOW MAN
SUBTITLE: This is how it was then. How it must be now.

BLACK HAT SHADOW MAN
SUBTITLE: This is all there is.

Buffy struggles against her restraints in vain as the black smoke comes toward her, entering her body through her nose and ears.

There is a cave. It is the place wherein lies

truest strength.

BLACK HAT SHADOW MAN
SUBTITLE: The energy of the demon. Its spirit.

BROWN HAT SHADOW MAN
SUBTITLE: Its heart.
[/b]

It also holds

The source of (Buffy's) strength. The well of the slayer's power.

The Shadow men use a portion of this power to create the First Slayer. They want to use more of it to give Buffy more power.

It is one more "the well of the slayer's power. If you want to create a slayer or give one more power that's where the power is. That's what the text tells us. If you suggest anything else you're re-writing the text.

So the power has to get from there to the potential slayers in Chosen. How does it do that? Willow does a spell. She needs the scythe. We watch energy emanate from the scythe and crawl up Willow's arm. I didn't make that up. It's in the episode. The reputation appears so clear to me I don't even know why we're arguing about it. Energy is traveling from the Scythe into Willow. The energy was in the well of the slayer's power, now it's in Willow. The power was someplace. It passes through the scythe and goes someplace else. The scythe is a conduit.

Here's another problem with the " the scythe is not a conduit, because it's a battery" theory. Even over and above the fact there's no textual suport for that, there's somthing else. Even if you're right, you're wrong.

In Get It done Willow tells us something like "you can't create energy. You can only transfer it". Take a car battery for instance. The battery doesn't come fully prepared to create the energy out of no-where. It draws the energy first of all from an alternate source of power, charging itself up, then storing the power. Now if someone comes along with jumper cables attaches them to the battery, and transfers energy to another battery, the battery has just become a conduit.

Look here's the black and white of it. The text tells us the power is in one spot. It later tells us the power gets someplace. This isn't re-interpretation. This is what the text says. It shows us a graphic representation of the power passing from the scythe into Willow. This makes the scythe a conduit.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

I dont know if this helps anyones POV or if its even mentioned or even if its relevent to anyone, But in CWDP, The First tries to have Willow kill herself.

 

[The Arcane]

You are still making a massive assumption with that, N4H. The problem is that you are basing it on a misunderstanding of some of the terminology.

I'm not saying that the slayer power inside the scythe did not come from the original source, although i would argue that the cave is incidental and that the box itself would be better described as the source, seeing as how it could have been moved at anytime since the time of the first slayer.

I'm questioning if you understand exactly what Anya was talking about in Get it Done when she used the term "conduit" because what you are describing is wrong, certainly in terms of magickal energies.

A conduit is, by definition, a means by which something is channeled, a way in which energies can be moved from one location to another. A conduit, when discussing magick, is generally an object of strength but absolutely no innate power of it's own. It has the ability to channel energy but not store it within itself. This can be a gemstone, or an artifact, or even a bone, depending on the magick being performed.

The scythe was stated to be imbued with power which would already strongly suggest that it could never be a conduit as it is able to hold energy indefinately. Both Buffy and Faith were able to feel the power within and knew that it belonged to them. If it had simply been a conduit that was only capable of channeling any form of energy then it would have had no innate connection to the slayers.

All the evidence points to it being a source. The Guardians who created the scythe at some point must have found access to the slayer power and filled the scythe with it's essence. That is the only way that Buffy and Faith could have felt the power within it when they held it. Willow then used her abilities as a catalyst to release the power from the scythe and send it outward through her.

The scythe was the source, Willow's spell was the catalyst and Willow herself was the conduit through which the energy left the scythe.

Basically, it boils down to the scythe not being a conduit of anything. It was only ever shown to be a source. No doubt not the original one but the energy stored within the scythe and the energy that activates a slayer would have had to come from the same place.

DDM, yeah, i noticed that too. I definately think that the First recognised that Willow was probably one of the biggest problems it faced. He couldn't have been more right! 🙂

 

[Schillaci]

Ok, Firstly, I do like your theory.

Now, I will only address this post, though, I have read this entire thread.

It is once more "the well of the slayer's power. If you want to create a slayer or give one more power that's where the power is. That's what the text tells us. If you suggest anything else you're re-writing the text.

Let us take the literal meaning of "˜Well'. A 'well' is a source for water. However, this water is taken from the 'well' and can be carried to many different locations, and used for many different functions. This power which is the source of the slayers power might originate in this cave (wherever in time this cave is) but the very definition of it, is that it moves from person to person, from time to time, instilling its power in these girls. Yes, its origin is there. But its not locked only in that cave, each slayers existence proves that.

So the power has to get from there to the potential slayers in Chosen. How does it do that? Willow does a spell. She needs the scythe. We watch energy emanate from the scythe and crawl up Willow's arm. I didn't make that up. It's in the episode. The meaning of the presentation appears so clear to me I don't even know why we're arguing about it. Energy is traveling from the Scythe into Willow. The energy was in the well of the slayer's power, now it's in Willow. The power was someplace. It passes through the scythe and goes someplace else. The scythe is a conduit.

I disagree. The power comes from the previous slayer. Passed down from generation to generation, becoming diluted each time. Those men wanted to make Buffy like the first slayer, give her the same power the first slayer had. So we can see, the power becomes diluted as its passed down through each slayer.

Here's another problem with the " the scythe is not a conduit, because it's a battery" theory. Even over and above the fact there's no textual suport for that, there's somthing else. Even if you're right, you're wrong.

Buffy: Why doesn't he have someone there protecting it? Why is he camped out at the vineyard? The bad guys always go where the power is.

WILLOW: And you say you sense something when you hold it? BUFFY: Not much but it's strong. And I knew it belonged to me. I just knew it.

GILES: Do you sense any of the power that Buffy spoke about? WILLOW: Gotta say no. Must be a Slayer thing.

Why does the First need the Scythe out of the stone if it's a battery?

THE FIRST: You realize what will happen if the Slayer and her girls get it, don't you?

Spike: Caleb is trying to protect something from you and I think you were spot on all the way.

BUFFY: Tomorrow, Willow will use the essence of the scythe to
change our destiny.

es·sence
n.
The intrinsic or indispensable properties that serve to characterize or identify something.
The most important ingredient; the crucial element.
The inherent, unchanging nature of a thing or class of things.

The nature of the scythe is that its connected to the slayer. It is characterized by its slayer power.

Joss Whedon: Some people complained that the magic, that this scythe, from originally from the Fray comic thatr I was writing at the same time, is a little too convenient. And my answer to those critics is "well don't tell everybody".

As horrible as this is, plot-wise. But I am pretty confident, that the whole point of the First and the Scythe is simply to stop Buffy getting her hands on it.