Scythe Matters

[The Arcane]

Interesting angle to come at that from, Psycho. Makes perfect sense too!

I'd have to agree on the "essence" debate. I think that the script pretty much makes it clear that the essence of the scythe IS the essence of the slayer, as i briefly alluded to in my previous post. Both Buffy and Faith feel it immediately. They sense the power within. The essence of the scythe.

This again only confirms that the scythe is a source or container, if you like, for the power and is in no way a conduit. It holds the power, it does not channel it.

Whilst i am making this post i just want to clarify something that i meant to mention before. N4H, i think you are getting a little caught up on my use of the term "battery". Whilst it was not entirely accurate in the context i was using it i was trying to get across to you my meaning of the scythe being a source of power.

When you buy a toy that needs a battery it won't work until you put one in. Willow's spell needed a source of slayer power to make it work. The scythe contained that power. Hence my analogy of it being a "battery".

I should also note that a toy that works off a battery does not need to be plugged into the mains at the same time. Willow's spell did not need her to be in contact with the original source of the slayer power either, just the power that was already within the scythe. See where i was going with the battery analogy now?

 

[nerd4hire]

On the Joss Whedon quote, I agree. The scythe is convenient, and may be a convenient way to offer a possibilities to explain the text as Joss suggested we do in the "Season 7 is almost didactic in it's clarity" quote.

On the posted definitions of essence. I'm not sure I understand why you would do that. Does that mean you are agreeing with me when I say the essence of the slayer is somewhere in the cave? The well is the source of Buffy's power right? It was in the well then it's in Buffy. OK take that out of Buffy in your head. Put it next to her. Tell me where the essence of the slayer is.

On killing Willow. Sure why not. She's the one section of the conduit chain that's interchangeable. When Giles chastises Willow for performing the spell to bring back Buffy, he tells her "there are others who could do what she did, you just wouldn't meet them." In other words there are powerful evil witches or warlocks, or such capable of doing the kind of spell Willow does. The First doesn't need her.

On sensing the power of the slayer in the scythe. As a conduit the scythe is connected to the power of the slayer. Go to a factory sometime and touch a power conduit. Tell me if you feel anything. Let me answer that for you, because I know the answer. Yes you do.

On why only the slayer's would feel that power? Why wouldn't they. The scythe is connected to the essence of the slayer power. The slayer's are receptive to it in a way others are not.

On

Why does the First need the scythe out of the stone to do a similar spell to the one performed by Willow?

The text doesn't tell us how the first plans to make use of the scythe once it gets it out of the stone. The text does tell us it wants the scythe out of stone. Buffy says says. The text also suggests the First wants control of the scythe. Caleb gets angry when he's told that can't happen. The power of the scythe is beyond that of a weapon. Buffy says so. That in itself is all I'm saying. After that I'm simply saying, "hey, maybe the power the First wants to access is it's power to be used as conduit to transport energy, and deliver it to specific targets." Why does he needs to free it from the stone to do that? I have no idea. If he wants to use it as a battery why does he have to free it from the stone? If he wants to hide it, why not move it stone and all.

On whether or not I'm intelligent enough to understand the true meaning of the word conduit in a Buffyverse sense, I don't know...try me. Offer some text support for what you're saying, and I will try to grasp the concept with my tiny little brain.

In Angel the White Room is a conduit. It is also a place that stores great power.

Recently on the news I heard the Canada/USA border described as a conduit through which illegal guns are passing. That doesn't mean there isn't road on either side of the border that is also part of the conduit. If I say Willow is forms one part of the conduit, with the scythe, and possibly the slayer forming other sections, there's nothing wrong with speaking like that. It's done all the time. There was another news story concerning a tunnel that was built under the border through which drugs were passed. They called that a conduit also.

The essence of the slayer is one place. It's transported someplace else. At one point it passes through the Scythe. If the White Room is a conduit, the scythe is a conduit by Buffyverse definition even if it does store energy within itself at different times.

 

[The Arcane]

Sorry, N4H, the scythe simply is not, in any way shape or form, a conduit. You are talking about two very different things here.

In the case of the being in the White Room, the term conduit was a designation, not a function. It was the being through which messages could be passed to the Senior Partners, not an object to be used in a spell. It acts as a conduit of information, not power. The fact it has power itself is irrelevant to this as it is not the same thing at all.

I've already explained to you how an object cannot both contain power and be a conduit so i won't go there again. I am slightly concerned that you seem to be taking this matter personally because i have neither suggested you lack intelligence or made any reference to the size of your brain.

The fact is though that i have studied the paranormal and supernatural for a very long time. A lot longer than either Buffy or Angel have been around as a matter of fact. Therefore i understand a little about wiccan terminology that goes beyond the script of Buffy. I simply did not wish to assume that you shared that knowledge as i have no idea how much you do know. I will admit that it still seems to me that you do not quite get that i'm simply trying to clarify matters so that you don't keep using the wrong meanings. That is a waste of time on both our parts.

So, i'll say again, and without trying to insult you, that the scythe is imbued with power and therefore it is not a conduit.

Now, i'm more than willing to continue this thread with you and try put the rest of the pieces together but i see no point in me knowingly pursuing a theory that i already am convinced cannot possibly be correct. As long as you continue to view the scythe as a conduit then you are barking up the wrong tree.

 

[The Arcane]

Something else i'd like to add that didn't occur to me before. Not all magick needs a conduit, at least not beyond the physical form of the spellcaster anyway. As you will have seen many times on Buffy, some spells take nothing more than the spoken word. Think Xander's slip of the tongue in Superstar.

Now in the case of what was being done in Get it Done a conduit is absolutely neccessary as you are talking about bringing something from one place to another, that being Buffy. The conduit is used to transfer the energies across dimensions (or more likely time, in this case), switching Buffy for the demon. The conduit does not even have to be directly related to the spell, just so long as it is strong enough to cope with the energies involved ...

WILLOW
Like a Kraken's tooth...
ANYA
Yeah, skin of Draconus, ground-up Baltic stones, something...

In the case of the scythe spell there is no actual conduit involved beyond Willow, the spellcaster. By default the energies pass through her but in fact she is simply releasing them out of the scythe, rather than directing them. The energy is then released into the world, activating all potentials as it passes through them.

Whilst this is a seperate issue to that which we are discussing i did think it was worth clearing up the fact that just because one kind of magick spell requires a conduit that is not true for all cases. In fact most do not. Again, look at any spoken word spell on the show for proof of that.

 

[nerd4hire]

Look, let's try something different. Let's try common sense.

The writer's want to communicate a thought. They choose words to communicate what they think their viewers will understand. They choose the word conduit. A conduit is something through which something else travels.

There's nothing in Buffyverse canon to contradict that.

What new agers might be putting on their websites concerning magicks or conduits, or whatever, may be entertaining, but for the purposes of this conversation their opinions are nothing more that - mild amusement. They prove nothing here. They mean nothing in the context of Buffyverse canon, unless they're specifically referenced.

A conduit is something through which something else travels. The energy, (whatever it was), was someplace, then it was in the scythe, then it was outside the scythe and someplace else. Whatever other power or function the scythe might have, doesn't matter. During the period energy is traveling through the scythe it's being used as a conduit.

It's just common sense. I honestly don't know why we're even arguing about it.

You know what this conversation is beginning to remind me of?

It's like someone came up to me and told me he was hungry so I offered him an apple.

He says, "What's that?"

I say, "It's an apple."

He says, "Maybe it's not an apple. Maybe it's a wax representation of an apple."

I say, "No honestly it's an apple. Smell it. It smells like an apple."

He then starts telling me about some vegetable in the southern Sudan that smells like an apple.

I tell him, "but peel it, taste it, it's an apple."

The guy then goes off an a rambling discussion concerning how the pome in pomegranite is french for apple, then starts discussing plums, then smarties, then delivers a dissertation on the grub-eating habits of Kalahari bushmen. He turns to me with a smug look on his face, and says, "Therefore that is not an apple", then looks around the room for applause.

Honestly. What can I do at that point. Shrug my shoulders, offer my hands upwards to God and shout out, "But it's just a damned apple!"

Seriously guy, the scythe can be used as a conduit. Deal with it.

 

[The Arcane]

Quite the opposite. In fact i've often been impressed by just how closely Joss and the other writers have stuck to actual wiccan lore. They have used nearly all the terminology correctly and where it actually makes sense, with only a few minor quibbles.

Given the fact that the likes of Willow, Tara, Amy and Anya are supposedly quite versed in the language of magicks i think it only appropriate that they weren't seen to be throwing words around that made absolutely no sense to those that had some sort of idea what they were talking about. BtVS may have been a fantasy show but it dealt with a real subject in witchcraft and they were surprisingly accurate in the basics, no matter how fanciful the magick they showed turned out to be.

You have allowed this topic to become bogged down on a word that is totally throwing you off course to the correct answers you seek, despite the fact i have tried to explain to you your error so that we could get back to the accurate facts.

DAWN
Willow, how would you get Buffy back?
WILLOW
That's what I'm saying. I don't even know.
DAWN
Okay, but if another witch was to do it, where would she start?
WILLOW
Physics, principles, basic laws...
DAWN
Such as?
WILLOW
Conservation of energies. You can't really create or destroy anything, just transfer.
Anya scoffs.

DAWN
(angry)
I'm sorry, are you helping?
ANYA
No, but at least I'm not galloping off in the wrong direction.
WILLOW
Magick works off physics.
ANYA
Not without a catalyst. If you're talking about transferring energies, you need some kind of conduit.
WILLOW
Like a Kraken's tooth...
ANYA
Yeah, skin of Draconus, ground-up Baltic stones, something...
DAWN
Okay, good.
KENNEDY
Plus, we need an exchange, like you said. I'm thinking a Slayer for a demon.
WOOD
Right. If we want Buffy back, then we have to find that demon and send it through.

The above, as you no doubt know, are all the relevant lines from Get it Done, the conversation between Anya and Willow being of particular importance. You are convinced that they are talking about all magick which is where you are going wrong. In the attempt to link this conversation to the later events of Chosen you are seriously confusing yourself.

Note the line from Anya that i have highlighted. She states that if you are talking about transfering energies then you need a conduit. This is correct, but only for this kind of spell, not for spells in general.

Not every spell requires a conduit, only a certain type. This one did in order to switch Buffy and the demon back again. However, when it comes to what we saw in Chosen, there is absolutely no mention or any other evidence to suggest that Willow's scythe spell needed a conduit of any kind.

The spell seen in Chosen was described as Willow using the essence of the scythe to activate all the potentials. Not Willow using the scythe as a conduit to another source of slayer power somewhere else and then transfering that to the potentials.

The dialogue made it very clear that the scythe was imbued with the slayer power and that is exactly what Willow used. She released the power from the scythe to activate all the new slayers. It really isn't any more complicated than that.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Ok so first off

So the power has to get from there to the potential slayers in Chosen. How does it do that? Willow does a spell. She needs the scythe. We watch energy emanate from the scythe and crawl up Willow's arm. I didn't make that up. It's in the episode. The meaning of the presentation appears so clear to me I don't even know why we're arguing about it. Energy is traveling from the Scythe into Willow. The energy was in the well of the slayer's power, now it's in Willow. The power was someplace. It passes through the scythe and goes someplace else. The scythe is a conduit.

Look here's the black and white of it. The text tells us the power is in one spot. It later tells us the power gets someplace. This isn't re-interpretation. This is what the text says. It shows us a graphic representation of the power passing from the scythe into Willow. This makes the scythe a conduit.

Ok the power of the Slayer can, as we have seen, exist in two separate places, Faith and Buffys existence proves this. So it is possible that the power also lies within the Scythe.

On sensing the power of the slayer in the scythe. As a conduit the scythe is connected to the power of the slayer. Go to a factory sometime and touch a power conduit. Tell me if you feel anything. Let me answer that for you, because I know the answer. Yes you do.

On why only the slayer's would feel that power? Why wouldn't they. The scythe is connected to the essence of the slayer power. The slayer's are receptive to it in a way others are not.

The scythe is definitely connected to the power of the Slayer, and there is no evidence that is can be connected to any other dark energy, this is one place your text references breaks down, it has only been shown to have a connection to the slayer line, and if you say that the first could use the scythe could transfer himself, you are missing two text supported situations:
1)That the Scythe can manipulate any demon energy.
2)That the effect would be on anyone else but potential slayers, as that is who the scythe is connected to!

The writer's want to communicate a thought. They choose words to communicate what they think their viewers will understand. They choose the word conduit. A conduit is something through which something else travels.

You are completely right that is what a conduit is, put The Scythe is not the conduit in this situation, Willow is, The Spell caster is the conduit, think about what Giles said in Lessons

GILES
Who brought it through the Earth?

WILLOW
It's all connected. The root systems, the molecules...the energy. Everything's connected.

GILES
Everything's connected. You're connected to a great power, whether you feel it or not

Magick is everywhere but it is the witch(Or male witch, whatever) that channels this power into being, in the form of the spell, In this case Willow channelled her powers into bring a plant out in England that is only native to Paraguay. But then it has been highlighted in the series that some spells need some kind of conduit, such as the spell to swap the demon for Buffy in GID, The Orb of Thesulah or the Urn of Osirus(Does that count?) But it was never mentioned that this spell needed a conduit, and the Scythe was never referred to as a conduit

What I would say is a possibility is that the Scythe is a Catalyst (A Catalyst: Speeds up a reaction without being used up in the reaction). Some of those girls would have been activated as a slayer, but the Scythe sped up that process and made them all a Slayer, now!

 

[The Arcane]

Magick is everywhere but it is the witch(Or male witch, whatever) that channels this power into being, in the form of the spell, In this case Willow channelled her powers into bring a plant out in England that is only native to Paraguay. But then it has been highlighted in the series that some spells need some kind of conduit, such as the spell to swap the demon for Buffy in GID, The Orb of Thesulah or the Urn of Osirus(Does that count?) But it was never mentioned that this spell needed a conduit, and the Scythe was never referred to as a conduit

What I would say is a possibility is that the Scythe is a Catalyst (A Catalyst: Speeds up a reaction without being used up in the reaction). Some of those girls would have been activated as a slayer, but the Scythe sped up that process and made them all a Slayer, now!

Not that i want to get into a debate of terminology with you as well, BEG, but i thought i'd better mention that you have some of those terms mixed up too.

As far as a catalyst is concerned, certain spells require items with no inherent magickal energy of their own. In those cases a catalyst is needed. The catalyst, in these terms, is a seperate item that has the necessary power to activate the spell. Be that some form of powder, an enchanted amulet or some other additional form of energy.

The Urn of Osiris is not a conduit, although it is not made entirely clear what it is. My best guess would be that is simply a symbolic offering jar, in this case to Osiris, in which you mix the ingredients needed for the spell and then tip them out in the desired place. Not a conduit though.

The Orb of Thesulah is most definately not a conduit, it is a vessel. It is even stated as such in the soul restoration spell. It holds the soul during the spell until the spellcaster completes the process and releases it to the person in question. The Orb has much more in common with a muo-ping, although that is clearly meant for longer term soul storage, hehe!

An object that can truly be classed as a conduit, by definition in magickal terms, has no inherent power of it's own and cannot hold any power beyond it's use during the spell. Certain conduits can be used to increase the potential of the energy passing through them but the basic rules stay the same. A conduit has no power of it's own outside of the time it is being used for a spell.

Now, in the case of the scythe, both Buffy and Faith sensed the power within the scythe at a time when no spell was taking place. Therefore it has inherent power inside it and cannot be a magickal conduit. Therefore it is a source, or container, or vessel, whatever of those terms you choose to use. They all mean the same thing.

That make sense to you?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Yep, I was not sure if the Urn was, that's why I said it, but the orb was an ord on my behalf, but I get it now, thanks 🙂

 

[nerd4hire]

At this point I have to admit to being a little frustrated, and I'd like to explain that frustration to you.

As you may have guessed I've had a few debates in my day. In the course of those I've come across styles of arguements that are fundamentally erroneous by their nature. I've seen them so much that I've categorized them, and given them titles.

There's the "pay no attention to the man behind the screen" arguement. This is the one that tells to ignore common sense and concentrate on the big, floaty head of illusion the debater puts before you.

There's the "What elephant?" arguement. This is the one where the debater stands in front of the elephant in the room, and says, "What elephant?"

There's the "An aardvark is a kumquat" arguement. This is the one where a debate points at an aardvark and agressively re-interprets what your senses are telling you to convince you it's not an aardvaark. It's a kumquat.

And of course, my personal favourite, the "Black is white" arguement. That's self-explanatory. It's when someone tries to convince you black is white.

Now I can bat any single one of those arguements away like a mosquito, but when they're all coming at me at once, they're just to much. All I can do is throw my hands in the air, and say, "Give me a break".

I'll give an example to show you what I mean.

Suppose I'm sitting in front of the TV with a big bowl of popcorn watching my Angel episode. They tell me the white room is a conduit. "That's interesting", I say, "but what's a conduit?" I dive for my trusty rat-eared version of Webster's, and look it up. It tells me a conduit it something through which other stuff can travel.

So I'm happy with that, and I come here and post about the white room as a conduit according to Webster's.

Someone tells me, "First of all the white room is not a conduit."

The Angel writers told me it's a conduit, but he's saying it's not. He's saying "What elephant."

He then tells me to ignore what Webster's told me, and to believe what he and an obscure few believe a conduit is. He's telling me, "Pay no attention to the man behind the screen." By my way of thinking. If you're a writer, and you want to reference a magical definition, you give some indication that's what you're doing. Otherwise people are going to assume some common sense conclusion like "a conduit is a conduit".

He goes on to tell me a conduit is something through which something travels, but it can only be used for that function. It can have no other possible use, or function. No energy can act independently within it."

"But wait a minute", I say, "The white room is a conduit, because that's what they tell me it is. It connects the senior partner's dimension to this one. Stuff can travel though it. I see the stuff moving around in there. That stuff can have indepent function. It can have it's own power, and act independently within the conduit. Gunn get's knocked across the room by it. The conduit can contain stored power. The Beast comes into the white room conduit looking for the power that's already there.

Then I remember something else. In the Buffy episode Get It Done Anya describes an object as being both a catalyst and conduit. At no time does she suggest there's two separate objects. She's talking about the same object. A catalyst is by it's nature something that can spark an energetic reaction. It has independent function. It's like a spark used to create a reaction of power."

At this point the arguement comes back suggesting I didn't see what I thought I saw. I'm told it's something entirely different. I'm told "An aardvark is a kumquat"

So I put all this together, and it's telling me black is white

I don't know what can I do?

All I can do is tell you once more what I'm saying so the facts can't be obscured.

The scythe can be used as a conduit. We know that because Willow tells us energy cannot be created, only transfered. Any power within the scythe had to at one point come from someplace else. The power somehow exits the scythe. The power has traveled through the scythe. At that point the scythe can be described as a conduit. At that point I can reference Anya's quote concerning conduits, and say, "Hey maybe there's a connection, here."

 

[Schillaci]

All I can do is tell you once more what I'm saying so the facts can't be obscured.

The scythe can be used as a conduit. We know that because Willow tells us energy cannot be created, only transfered. Any power within the scythe had to at one point come from someplace else. The power somehow exits the scythe. The power has traveled through the scythe. At that point the scythe can be described as a conduit. At that point I can reference Anya's quote concerning conduits, and say, "Hey maybe there's a connection, here."

When Willow brings Buffy back they create a demon. So her statement that energy cannot be created must be false? I don't know about wiccan terminology, or any of that occult smuccolt. All I can say is, the text tells us that there is a power within the scythe. That power is linked to the Slayer. I think instead of defending this one theory, you should look at other ideas about the scythe. Find an alternative theory that holds the same principles as this one.

 

[The Arcane]

N4H, you keep saying that facts can't be obscured but clearly they can because you are choosing to obscure the facts from yourself.

Your last post was very entertaining but as none of those examples relate to anything i've been saying then i'm not sure what relevance they have to this. I have already told you that the terminology used in Buffy when related to magick is extremely accurate to true wiccan lore. Why can you not accept that they are using the term conduit accurately? In which case you cannot apply it to the scythe.

You mention that Willow states in Get It Done that energy cannot be created, only transfered. Very true! When performing the spell in Chosen Willow is not creating anything at all. She is releasing the innate power stored within the scythe. That is not the same as using it as a conduit at all. Nowhere in any of the text of the show does anyone claim that it is a conduit, nor does anyone claim that she is doing anything but using the essence of the scythe, the power of the slayer.

You have linked together a conversation from one episode about one spell to the events in another episode and a totally unrelated spell and convinced yourself that the two things are connected when they really are not. Both spells involve magick and the manipulation of energy. One is a transfer, the other is a release.

No two magick spells seen on Buffy were identical in nature. Some used powder, some used personal items of the intended victim, others were merely carried out with words. You simply cannot make the case that just because the spell in Get It Done required a conduit then, by default, so did the one in Chosen. It makes absolutely no sense.

So, one last time, if all Willow needed was a conduit then she could have found herself a Kraken's tooth. She used the scythe as the power was already stored within. The scythe was a vessel of the slayer power, it was not a conduit of any kind. Nobody, with the exception of your good self, ever claimed that it was. Not here and not on the show.

One last thing, the White Room is the White Room, the Conduit is the Conduit. One is a big white transdimensional space and the other is the entity that lives inside it and acts as a link to the Senior Partners. Regardless of that it still isn't the same thing as a magickal conduit, anymore than it is the same thing as an electrical conduit.

 

[The Arcane]

I was going to edit my previous post to add this but i was a little late in returning to the thread.

N4H, i've been trying to remain polite and not take too much notice of your continued snippy comments regarding my side of this debate but i'm getting a little tired of your attempts to make out that my arguments are flawed simply because they use knowledge from outside the text of Buffy when you do the exact same thing.

If my definition of the word conduit is not accurate because i am using the meaning as described in true wiccan lore then how is yours anymore accurate when you use a dictionary to make your point? Who is to say that the writers were intending the viewer to take the literal meaning of conduit when the conversation was related to magick and between two people that knew the craft extremely well? Surely my theory, to assume that two people who understand wicca and are discussing the properties needed for a spell, is a little more likely than yours, that they are using the language as properly described by Webster's.

Furthermore, this comment you made ...

Then I remember something else. In the Buffy episode Get It Done Anya describes an object as being both a catalyst and conduit. At no time does she suggest there's two separate objects. She's talking about the same object. A catalyst is by it's nature something that can spark an energetic reaction. It has independent function. It's like a spark used to create a reaction of power."

In reference to this line ...

ANYA
Not without a catalyst. If you're talking about transferring energies, you need some kind of conduit.

Now, i understand your confusion in how the line was delivered but i'm afraid this only goes to prove my point further. Anya, however the dialogue came across, was talking about two seperate things. How do i know this? Because i know that in a spell a conduit and a catalyst cannot be the same thing. When i heard that line it never once occured to me that she was talking about a single object because i already knew the difference.

My point being that you have already as much as admitted that you don't necessarily understand where the fantasy and reality of wiccan faith meet on the show. Which terms are pure fantasy and which are actual concepts used in witchcraft. However, i do. When Anya said that line i knew straight away that she was talking about two things. A catalyst and a conduit. Just because you took it to mean one thing doesn't make you correct.

Now, you can either go on trying to make me look like i'm attempting to win the debate by making stuff up and avoiding your "facts" or you can correctly assume that i'm just trying to give you some additional information that you clearly do not already know yourself but will hopefully help you come to a correct answer about this.

I've got no interest in winning this argument other than to stop you wasting your time on a theory that is not accurate and if the only thanks i'm going to get are sarcastic non-replies then i'm wasting my time.

 

[nerd4hire]

Watcher old pal, you've got me all wrong. I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. Watch I'll prove it.

I was wrong when referring to the white room as the conduit. It does appear to be the entity inside the white room who is the conduit. Once more I had to go home to double-check my references, and once more I was wrong about a detail. Thanks for keeping me honest.

Now let's see...what was that white room conduit thing supposed to prove? Oh yeah, you were saying your magic books say a conduit can only serve to transfer energy, and can have no other internal power, or independently functioning purpose. OK let's check that out with the new information. The entity is the conduit, right? Doesn't it throw Gunn across the room? Isn't it acting independently of whatever's passing through it when it does that? It targets Gunn, and attacks him.

There's another conduit in Birthday.

Dissolve to a white light and whisperings that resolves into chamber. Its walls are hidden in the shadows. The only thing in it is a square cube of stone with a fire burning on top.

We hear a scream and Angel drops into frame to land face down on the floor beside the cube.

Angel: "Thanks Lorne."

Voices: "It is come. The champion is come. (Angel picks himself up and looks around) Come for what? Answers not to be had. Death is certain. Death awaits."

Angel: "I wanna talk to the conduit."

Voices: "We are the conduit. We are the gateway, the all the time, the ever. It wishes to speak to us."

Angel: "Yes, it does. Are you gonna show yourselves?"

Voices: "We are unseen. Formless. It speaks unknowing. Send it away."

Angel: "I'm not going anywhere until I get my message to the Powers That Be. My friend - Cordelia - has visions given to her by the Powers. They're killing her. I want the Powers to take them back. - Let her go. She's suffered enough!"

Suddenly Angel flies across the room to smash into one of the walls.

Voices: "Suffering? Does it know suffering?"

Angel flies across the room to smash into the opposite wall then drops to the floor.

Voices: "Yes it does. - The Powers owe nothing. Send it away. Send it away."

Not only does this conduit have power independent of it's function to transfer energy or information, it has will, and intelligence that function independendently of simply passing anything through itself. It was never my contention the scythe didn't have power of it's own, only that it could function as a conduit if need be. In fact these two conduits in Angel function pretty much the way I see the scythe operating. They can transfer something (energy or information) from one place to the other, but they have internal energy powering independent, multi-task capabilities.

Now if I understand what your magic books say correctly, they claim a conduit can't do any of that. I therefore contend if the Buffy/Angel writers are aware of the books you read, they aren't incorporating that particular bit of arcane lore into Buffyverse canon. Buffyverse canon is what I care about. In the canon something can have it's own internal energy, and multiple functions. It can still be used as a conduit. The scythe may very well have it's own internal energy. It can also be used as a conduit. There was energy outside it. The energy got in the scythe somehow. The energy got out. The energy therefore traveled through it. That's a conduit. It's a defintion any Buffy viewer with access to a dictionary can discover.

And Hell yeah, you can use a dictionary. It gives you the commonly accepted definition of a term. If you look up something like "conduit", and it doesn't contradict Buffyverse canon, but a second-hand interpretation of some obscure lore does, you accept the commonly accepted term from the dictionary. That's common sense. If a dictionary defintion did contradict the canon though, I could be convinced the dictionary was possibly wrong in that case, because the Buffyverse text is the bible when that's what you're discussing. In fact if Webster's contradicted canon, and some dictionary of magic agreed with canon, I'd agree with you if you suggested the dictionary of magic was more credible in that case. Unfortunately for your arguement though, that's not the case here.

I do admit I was wrong about the white room being the conduit. I admit to being wrong twice in this thread concerning details that don't really affect the basic arguement. I don't think I'm making any more mistakes than anyone else. I'm just the only one admitting to them.

Nevertheless, an entity conduit with independent power and function does contradict the details of your questionably sourced magical definition of conduit. The White Room conduit, the Birthday conduit, and I continue to contend the quote that follows illustrates that contradiction-

ANYA
Not without a catalyst. If you're talking about transferring energies, you need some kind of conduit.

WILLOW
Like a-a Kraken's tooth.

Notice I posted the second line there this time. Can you see why I did that? Catalyst and conduit in a single object. I admit that struck me as odd the first time I heard it too, but the quote is referencing Willow's points concerning transfering energies. Anya says you need a catalyst. You need a conduit. Willow agrees and offers up a single object up to to perform both those functions. I say single object, because, she doesn't say anything like, "Oh yeah Kraken's tooth for catalyst, skin of Draconis for conduit" She simply says "like a Kraken's tooth". That's a single elephant...er...I mean object.

And yes I'm aware all spells do not use conduits, (eg locator spell), but Willow, Anya and me were all talking about a spell to transfer energy.

Now on my snippiness. It's the way I deal with someone who speaks to me in a condescending manner. I'll stop, if you will, 🙂 but when you say you're going to refuse to continue educating me if I don't stop pointing out the fallacies in your arguements I can only answer, uhhh...(must bite tongue. must not say first five things that come to mind), and I say again uhhh... are sure you don't want to re-think that offer? 😀

***

And PJ. As I recall it's an "exchange". I'll go by memory, so feel free to correct me on the details, but doesn't it go something like Buffy jumps into the portal. Someone says something like "What was that about an exchange?" There's a flash of light off-screen I interpreted as a second portal. A demon appears. Someone (Kennedy I think) hollers, "Send it back". How is anything created there? It's exchanged.

And once more, yes there can be power in the scythe. It can have multi-task capabilities according to Buffy canon of what a conduit can do. One of those tasks can be as a conduit. A border crossing can be referred to as a conduit through which illegal drugs travel. That doesn't mean it stops performing the other multitudinous tasks of a border crossing.

And again, I say once more, I'm talking about what's possible within Buffy canon here, I'm not saying my theory is the one, true and only fact. Nothing as yet has been presented disproving the possibility, so I go on like a little soldier of truth. 🙂

 

[Black Eye Guy]

That's all well and good, but I still have seen no textual evidence that the Scythe is a conduit, it only points that the power came from within the scythe.

 

[nerd4hire]

See here's the problem though. You guys are just completely locked in on this word is. I'm not really saying the scythe is a conduit in that that's all it is, or can ever be. I'm saying it can be used as a conduit. When something travels through an object, that object can be seen as a conduit. At the point you can say that,well maybe it's like other Buffyverse conduits - powerful, and multi-tasking.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Ok, but I have still seen no evidence that it could be a conduit, where the power travelled through it and not from it. Because the conduit can not be the source of the power it is 'conduiting', it can however have it's own power, as the example you have given, and then be made a conduit as well. Such as Eve, she was a human, then later she also became the conduit to the senior powers.

 

[The Arcane]

N4H, i do appreciate you admitting that you were in error and i'm honestly not trying to be picky here but you are still confusing one type of conduit, that being the type used in magick, to other types, as in your examples above.

When i say that a conduit cannot itself have power stored within i am talking about the type of conduit used in spells of a magickal nature. For example, as mentioned by Willow and Anya, a Kraken's tooth, skin of Draconus or ground-up Baltic stones. Objects for use in the manipulation of energy in magicks, not living beings.

The examples you have just put forward are not the same thing at all. They are beings of power that serve a function that had given them the title of Conduit.

Now, your dictionary may well give you the literal meaning of the term conduit. Absolutely correct. However that is only any good for getting top marks in an english test and very little use in this debate.

Both examples above can be described as conduits but then so can the channel in your wall where the electrical wire passes through and that isn't the same thing either.

So, the being in the White Room and the beings that spoke to Angel in Birthday have both been given the title of Conduit because they serve a purpose that relates to that term, although in those cases it is more about them being a channel of communication.

When you are talking about magick, as Willow and Anya were, the conduit in question is a very different and specific thing. It is an object of strength, powerful enough to channel great energies through, but which has no inherent power of it's own which could corrupt the spell being carried out. A conduit as used in a magick spell, by necessity, would be totally devoid of power at any time that it was not being used for the purposes of a given spell.

In the case of the scythe, it is stated that it has imbued power present at all times. A conduit, as spoken about by Anya, would have no such thing. It would have the potential to channel power but not the capacity to hold it as that would make it unclean in magickal terms.

So, there are basically two types of "conduit" in discussion here.

1) The object used to channel energy in spells.
2) Beings of power who serve a function of communication through dimensions.

Both may be referred to as conduits but they are two totally different kinds with totally different natures. I hope that has clarified which is which for you and that you see the difference that i'm trying to put forward because it is absolutely essential if you are going to finally get to grips with the scythe issue.

No matter what Willow did with that scythe in Chosen i can promise you with 100% certainty that she wasn't using it in the way that Anya described in Get it Done. It just isn't possible, given what we were told.

 

[The Arcane]

For the second time i managed to post one thing and then remember a second point i needed to make but too late to edit so i'm double posting again. Sorry guys!

In reference to this ...

Notice I posted the second line there this time. Can you see why I did that? Catalyst and conduit in a single object. I admit that struck me as odd the first time I heard it too, but the quote is referencing Willow's points concerning transfering energies. Anya says you need a catalyst. You need a conduit. Willow agrees and offers up a single object up to to perform both those functions. I say single object, because, she doesn't say anything like, "Oh yeah Kraken's tooth for catalyst, skin of Draconis for conduit" She simply says "like a Kraken's tooth". That's a single elephant...er...I mean object.

Now allow me to add a further sentence ...

WILLOW
Magick works off physics.
ANYA
Not without a catalyst. (Note the full stop here) If you're talking about transferring energies, you need some kind of conduit.
WILLOW
Like a Kraken's tooth...

Anya's mention of a catalyst was in reference to Willow stating that magic worked off physics. She then proceeded to correctly state that a conduit would also be needed, given the required spell, to which Willow mentioned the Kraken's tooth.

I fully admit that the way Emma delivered the line on the show sort of blurred both sentences into the same thing but the full stop i noted is very important as she had finished talking about the necessary catalyst at that point and moved on to the next required item, the conduit.

I promise you that if the writers involved have any knowledge of basic wicca lore at all, which they must have given how well they use it on the show, then they are aware that a catalyst and a conduit are not the same thing.

Finally, if i have sounded at all condescending in this debate it was unintentional but the fact is that i have studied this sort of thing since i was in school to the point of following a wiccan faith for a good few years, particularly throughout college. Whilst my life has forced me to put the faith to one side, the knowledge is still there and so these terms are a second nature to me. If i have seemed to talk down to you on any matter i will apologise but i really am trying to make you understand that you are totally on the wrong track here regarding the scythe being used as a conduit in this spell.

Look at it this way. Say that you accept what i'm saying in that what Anya stated in Get it Done about a conduit is not relevant to what Willow did. Then say you accept that Willow simply released the imbued energy from the scythe to activate the potentials around the world. Would that really stop you from continuing your theory altogether? It seems to me that the First could very easily have had plans to use the dark demonic energies of the slayer power from within the scythe for reasons of his own.

 

[nerd4hire]

That's an interesting interpretation, and yeah there are different conduits for different stuff. That makes sense. You can have water conduits, power conduits. The cable that transports your internet connection and allows you to communicate that way could be seen as a conduit. The fact remains a buffyverse conduit can pass energy through it, whether it's the energy required to pass communication, or whatever. Buffyverse conduits can in some cases at least have multiple internal functions. There's nothing saying only communication can have multiple internal functions. It only says they do. Basically a Buffyverse conduit can be anything as long as it can also serve the function as a conduit.

It's true Willow and Anya are talking about a specific kind of conduit designed for a specific purpose. They apply the word conduit to exist in the same object as they suggest could serve as a catalyst. At least if they're speaking English that's what they said. I guess you could say they didn't mean it the way it sounded. Joss tells me as a viewer to to believe what I see and hear in Season 7 though, so I'm going to choose to do that, and assume the writers meant what they said.

And TW, let me show you what I mean by condescension. It's a word I found in my little dictionary. It won't be in your magic dictionary, maybe that's why you're having problems with it. You can't promise me with 100% certainity something that's a matter of interpretation is a fact. Only Joss or God can do that. You're not either of those guys are you? You can promise me with 100 % certainity that in your opinion such and such is the case. No problem. I'll consider the source, and take it under advisement. 😉

And Black Eye Guy, I'll get to the possibilities that exist there eventually. Just let me deal with this first. It's a multi-stepped reasoning process, you need to establish one before you go on to the other.