Scythe Matters

[The Arcane]

Okay, N4H, have it your own way. If you want to continue basing your entire theory on a mistake then go for it. I've tried time and time again to help clarify this for you so that you could continue along without the misunderstandings you currently have but you are clearly not going to take on board what i'm saying.

If you want to continue banging your square peg facts into the round holes of this topic then that is up to you but whatever answer you finally decide on is going to be flawed because of that.

I've said all i can say on this matter and given you all the facts i can help you with so i'll make this my last post in this thread. Before i quit though, consider this. There are a hell of a lot of the Buffy fanbase who, like me, are either of a wiccan faith or at least educated in the area. Don't you think that Joss and the ME writers would realise that and know that it was important to use the right words in the right places?

If not then surely it would be like Joss writing a show called Buffy the Carpenter and then having two characters have a conversation about cutting a piece of wood with a hammer, then showing it to a room full of carpenters and not expecting them to say "Hey, wait a second, that is rubbish!".

Simply because you do not appreciate the importance of the terminology does not mean that others that use the words and study wicca on a daily basis would accept the error.

But, from here on out i'll leave you to construct whatever theory you choose, no matter what you decide to acknowledge. Hope the end result is worth your time and effort! 🙂

 

[The Arcane]

Double posted (due to weird board activity).

 

[M-a-r-c]

Doesnt the first connect with Caleb in end of days. I think it was only to give Caleb a power boost but still if the 'essence' of the first was in caleb, even if only particially maybe this would have allowed the first to draw power from the sycthe...perhaps.

Not saying I agree with the theory, although I must say it is brilliant.

 

[M-a-r-c]

Sorry for the pointless post above. I only read the first page of the thread before posting!

 

[nerd4hire]

Well thanks for your authorization to move on Watcher. I will do that shortly but I'm not done with you yet, grasshopper. 🙂

Basically what we have in the passage from Get It done is two different interpretations of the same text. I read it and I hear something like...

Willow:
We need to get in touch with Buffy

Anya
You can't to that without some kind of communication device. We have to connect to that communication socket in the wall.

Willow
Yeah. We need something like a telephone.

TW sees the same passage, and he hears...

Willow:
We need to get in touch with Buffy.

Anya:
Yeah we need a communication device, then we need a little connecting cord so we can connect it to that communication socket in the wall.

Willow:
Yeah. We need something like a telephone.

Let's be honest. Neither one of us is ever going to convince the other he heard anything different. We're like a Catholic and a Protestant arguing over what the word "Mother" means in the phrase Mother Mary.

Let's try this then. We know we need a catalyst and a conduit to do the spell right? Let's go to the spell.

They pour a circle of sand in the center of the bare floor. They tell us the sand creates a barrier. Willow squats down in the center of the empty circle.

Where's the conduit? Where's the catalyst?

If it's the sand, it has multi-tasking capabilities. If it's Willow we have multi-tasking, and separate internal energy.

In fact correct me if I'm wrong TW, but at one point in this discussion didn't you suggest Willow could be the conduit in the Chosen spell?

*

On creating two separate categories for Buffyverse conduits, one for transferring energy, one passing on communication; there's a problem with that. Any form of communication requires the transference of energy. Speech requires sound. Any form of electronic communication requires energy be passed through cables, or beamed wirelessly. Psychic energy is implicit in any postulation of psychic communication. It's basic physics. An energetic reaction requires an action. Even sign language requires light.

So as far as the two categories you made up are concerned, in both cases you have the transference of energy. You could say different energies require different types of conduits. I wouldn't have a problem with that. The fact remains, in the Buffyverse you can pass energy through a conduit. The conduit function can be internal to a more complex, and powerful bit of machinery.

Willow and Anya say you need a conduit and a catalyst to transfer energies. The Scythe could conceivably contain both those capabilities. It can definitely serve as a simple conduit, because it can do what a conduit does - allow energy to move through itself.

Also I'm not sure you can apply a specific definition on all possible applications of the word conduit based on a few examples. It's like this. Suppose someone came here from another planet. His guide took him around, and in the process of the tour he showed him a water pipe. He described it as a conduit through which water passes. He then took him to a border crossing and described it as a conduit through which people passed. Could the visitor report back to his ship saying "There are two kinds of conduits. One is used to pass water through. The other to pass people through." Wouldn't it be more accurate to say something like, "Conduit is a term they use to describe something through which something else passes. It can either apply to something used for that specific purpose, or something with multiple purposes that can be used to pass other stuff through, but can perform other functions as well."

Edit:

And on the Wicca business. Yes I always knew the ME writers were up on Wicca. It doesn't follow from that that Wicca canon automatically becomes Buffy canon.

The writers are also up on ancient mythology. They still play with the details. I'll give you an example from memory. I think in Shadow they're talking about an ancient snake god called Sobek. Apparently there actually was a Sobek in ancient Egyptian mythology, but it's a crocodile not a snake.

So yes the ME writers enjoy their Wicca, but they're still allowed to play with stuff that doesn't fit what they want to say. Their use of some accurate wicca lore, definitely doesn't give someone the right to present himself as the one, true authority on Wicca, present information without a reference, then contradict the canon, and say "this doesn't jive with Wicca, so they're wrong".

Re-edit. I got that Sobek example from Restless_Buffytrivia or whatever. It's flawed. That site has failed me before too. Doesn't really matter though, there are tons of other examples showing how the writers can play fast and loose with the facts of external source material.

 

[The Arcane]

Okay, i'll bite, although i should know better at my age! 😉

In regards to the dialogue between Anya and Willow. The ways we are interpreting what is said differently boils down to the knowledge we both have in that area.

Again, as i have stated previously, Emma admittedly does blur those two sentences into one long statement making it sound like she is talking about a single object. But try to appreciate that to somebody who knows that a catalyst and a conduit cannot be the same thing it isn't even a debate that she was talking about two seperate things.

Let me offer my own alternative dialogue ...

Willow: A radio gives us music.

Anya: Not without a plug. If we want to transer the electricity then we will need a cable.

Willow: Like on the back of a television ...

Now, to anybody who wasn't aware of how a radio connected to the wall, the way that dialogue is delivered may well suggest that the plug and the cable are the same object, and indeed they are both used together to make the radio work. Even so, the plug is one thing, the cable is another.

For me, given that i am absolutely aware, and under no doubt whatsoever, that a catalyst has to contain power whilst a conduit cannot, it was never a question to me that Anya simply made two statements together about two seperate necessary items, the catalyst and the conduit.

I totally appreciate that the line is delivered a little poorly but i didn't need the delivery of the line to tell me something i already knew.

As for what i said about Willow being the conduit, indeed i did and i stand by that suggestion simply because in all spells the spellcaster functions as a basic conduit for the power in one form or another. Certain spells, as in the case of the one we are discussing here, require an object to help channel that power to a specific place or time and to maintain that link, or to amplify the effect if necessary, which is where an actual conduit comes into play.

As for what we saw in Get it Done whilst the spell was being performed, as far as i can tell that was one of those minor quibbles that i mentioned before because i do not recall seeing a secondary object either. The sand clearly acted as the catalyst, which goes without saying as powders are generally used in that function, but sand has neither the form or strength to act as a conduit.

If i wanted to make an excuse for the writers i could say that perhaps Willow was wearing the conduit on her person, maybe as an amulet around her neck, but i think the truth probably is that it was an error and somebody in the props department didn't do their job that day.

But what i do know is that sand is not capable of being used as a conduit so either they forgot or we just didn't see it.

Now, on to the two types of conduit. The difference between the two is very clear. One is a real term for a real object used in spellcasting in real life whilst the other is a term given to fictional creatures on a tv series.

I'm not going to argue that both types are called a conduit and that both types perform a function that merits that name but if we are talking about spellcasting then we are talking about objects and not beings. In spellcasting the type of conduit they describe is an object and one of the most important properties that this object must have is that it is completely devoid of power. For a spellcasting conduit that is essential.

There really is no point in comparing that to the beings you have mentioned because the rules i have just described do not apply to them.

Finally, i will gladly agree that the ME writers have always played around with the big stuff. I mean, i think we all know that 99.9% of what you see Willow do is total fantasy anyway. However, the basics have always been stuck to and what we are discussing here are some of the most basic, fundamental rules of spellcasting.

The spell carried out in Get It Done was totally ficticious but the conversation that Willow and Anya had was about the basic principles of spells. Given that they could have said absolutely anything the writers desired at that point in the episode, why would they suddenly choose to ignore something so basic? I really doubt that they would.

Now, with that in mind, is it not at least reasonable to believe that the writers did stick to such a basic rule and that Emma simply spoke the lines unclearly?

As i said, for me it's a given simply because i never thought otherwise. I know enough to know that a conduit and a catalyst have required properties that totally prohibits a single item being used for both functions. I'm pretty damn certain that anybody writing that episode and needing to study up on the basics of spells would know the difference too.

 

[Nighthawk]

I haven't read this entire thread so I might be way off and point it out if I am but...

Isn't it possible that Willow was the conduit? Watcher, you say that a conduit needs to be devoid of power which Willow clearly isn't, but really all a conduit has to do is transfer the energy/power and since this is dealing with witchcraft/spellcasting wouldn't the conduit need to be something strong enough to contain the power? like oh say... Willow? and also remember when she took the energy/power from Kennedy and Anya and it went through her? It could be she is the conduit.

But then again I don't really know what I'm talking about/ responding to. lol. So it is likely that I'm wrong.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I thought it was fairly obvious in Get it Done what was the catalyst and what was the conduit.

KENNEDY
Give her time. She's getting it.

XANDER
Or something's getting her. Will, think you better back up a little.

WILLOW
No!

Willow's arms thrust back behind her, sending magic toward Anya and Kennedy, who immediately freeze. Enveloped in magic, they are lifted from the ground momentarily by Willow, who's pulling power from the two women, through her, to create the portal. The portal opens up in front of her in the shape of a large window of light. Noticing that Willow's hair turned black as she channelled Anya and Kennedy's energy, Xander enters the circle, lifting Willow up by her arms. As he carries her out of the circle, her hair goes back to red. Kennedy seems upset as she realizes what just happened.

The two highlighted bits show us clearly that Willow was the conduit, threw which the energy flowed, also note that she was calling upon the 'mighty forces' in order to open the portal, this means that it was clearly not her power, it was the mighty forces and it was going to flow through her, but after that failed she sucked the energies out of Anya and Kennedy. This means the energies of Anya and Kennedy sped up the reaction, which would have usually taken a long time, therefore they were the catalyst.

 

[The Arcane]

I haven't read this entire thread so I might be way off and point it out if I am but...

Isn't it possible that Willow was the conduit? Watcher, you say that a conduit needs to be devoid of power which Willow clearly isn't, but really all a conduit has to do is transfer the energy/power and since this is dealing with witchcraft/spellcasting wouldn't the conduit need to be something strong enough to contain the power? like oh say... Willow? and also remember when she took the energy/power from Kennedy and Anya and it went through her? It could be she is the conduit.

But then again I don't really know what I'm talking about/ responding to. lol. So it is likely that I'm wrong.

NightHawk, when casting a spell the spellcaster is always a conduit of sorts as the energy always passes through them at one point or another. In that sense every single spell, from the ones that require vast amounts of power to the simple ones that require nothing more than a few words, all use a conduit, in the form of the person doing the spell. That isn't the type of conduit we are discussing here though.

Certain spells, such as the one in Get It Done, need the energy focused or amplified, in which case an object (known as a conduit) is needed to create this effect. The object needs to have great strength so that it can survive the process but must have no inate power of it's own that could influence or corrupt the energy passing through.

So whilst you are correct that Willow could in fact be described as a conduit of sorts (i have made that suggestion already myself as a matter of fact earlier in the thread) it would not be the same kind of conduit as i am describing above.

Same thing applies to what you posted, BEG. Yes, the energies did pass through Willow herself, as is always the case, and yes the spell does require Willow to draw extra strength from Kennedy and Anya, but that energy would then have passed through an actual conduit (the object that should have been shown during the spell) in order to focus it into a single place.

The sand is the catalyst which gives energy to the spell. Willow controls the magic and draws power from the other girls to help her sustain it. The unseen (or more likely probably forgotten by the props people) conduit then focuses the energy to create the portal.

 

[The Arcane]

Don't know why i didn't think of this before but it just occured to me that the best way to try prove my point is to describe the process of a spell requiring both a conduit and a catalyst.

As i have said, the catalyst is there to provide the energy needed for the spell. This must be used in proportion with the required result. In the same way that you use only the amount of explosive necessary to blow up the item you want to go boom. 🙂

Now, the conduit object needs to be able to direct or amplify that power but not influence it in any way beyond that, as the required magickal energy is already in place by the time the conduit comes into play. Therefore the conduit must be strong enough to not be destroyed by the energy but not have any mystical nature of it's own beyond that. It must hold no power of it's own whatsoever.

Okay, all the above i have already stated but now let me explain why that is so.

Say you had an object that could be both catalyst and conduit. What would happen in that case? If the same object that the energy was passing through also served as the power source for said energy then the result would be that the spell became self sustaining. The energy would continue to be created by the self same object that it was passing through, causing a continuous unstoppable reaction. All the time the energy passed through the object it would continue to create more of itself, on and on until it reached whatever the magickal term for critical mass happens to be.

That is why things are the way they are. The catalyst creates the energy that the spellcaster manipulates and then sends through the conduit. The spellcaster acting as a form of buffer between the two processes.

Anyway, that is the basic idea at least. Whilst i will accept that the ME writers did not need to hold to these basic wiccan beliefs i honestly do feel that terms like catalyst and conduit, when used in reference to spells, are clear enough that any writer who wanted to make Willow and Anya sound plausible would have done enough research to understand something as basic as this.

 

[Nighthawk]

There is a chance the prop department or the writers screwed up somewhere in the process, but I think they clearly meant for Willow to be the conduit.

 

[Nighthawk]

I just watched a clip of get it done and they do mention the need for a conduit like crakens(sp?) tooth or skin of drakonis(sp?) or grounded baltic stones. So it is likely that prop dep. screwed up. It just seems careless since they clearly stated that there was a need for a conduit and they mentioned which ones to use for that particular spell...

 

[The Arcane]

There is a chance the prop department or the writers screwed up somewhere in the process, but I think they clearly meant for Willow to be the conduit.

As you just said yourself, it is implied that an object is required to act as the conduit, so it would seem that either they forgot the prop when they shot the scene or that (to give them an out) Willow had a conduit of some fashion actually on her person.

If they had only meant for Willow herself to be the conduit then it would have been pointless to even mention it in the script as Willow is always acting as a conduit, in a fashion, as the spellcaster. As i have said, the type of conduit Anya mentions is an object that focuses the power after leaving the spellcaster.

 

[The Arcane]

Sorry to be double posting (yet again) but reading through N4H's last post one more time made me realise a small issue that i didn't want to confuse the topic any further. It relates to ...

Let's try this then. We know we need a catalyst and a conduit to do the spell right? Let's go to the spell.

They pour a circle of sand in the center of the bare floor. They tell us the sand creates a barrier. Willow squats down in the center of the empty circle.

Where's the conduit? Where's the catalyst?

If it's the sand, it has multi-tasking capabilities. If it's Willow we have multi-tasking, and separate internal energy.

I should mention here that this is a minor misunderstanding of the text again. The sand is not what creates the barrier, it is the circle.

In real life wiccan belief everything has meaning, be it numbers, symbols and even shapes. When Dawn says the following ...

DAWN
The sand forms a circle, the circle acts as a barrier and the barrier contains the portal.

... she is talking about the shape itself, not what the shape is made of.

A circle is a commonly used symbol of protection in witchcraft and can be made of anything relevant to the intent of the spell. In this case Willow has created the circle with sand, which is most likely the catalyst, in order to keep the energies within a certain place once the portal opens. If the circle was broken then the portal would expand outwards or simply collapse, depending on the energy available.

But the imortant point i'm making is that it is not the sand itself creating a barrier, it is the circle. I thought i'd better mention this before anyone went off on the wrong track again.

 

[nerd4hire]

On the props department: So that's what were going to do now? If we see something we don't agree with, we'll blame the props department. :winking11

I actually agree with Black Eye Guy. I think Willow is probably either catalyst or conduit. That's what makes sense to me.

Now you could also re-interpret the text to fit your external beliefs better. That's cool. enoy yourself.

I've seen nothing to suggest the scythe can't be used as a conduit. I'm going to move on.

OK now Black Eye Guy, sorry about the delay, let's consider what you were saying. As I understand it you choose to see the scythe as already containing the power of the slayer within it. Sure, why not? The power could have been drawn into the scythe at an earlier date, and stored there, or possibly come from some alternate source we have yet to hear about. Maybe Joss well come at a later date, and tell us that's what happened. He hasn't done it yet though, so it's still OK to suggest maybe something else is possible.

I think I can illustrate the possibility I'm suggesting with an example.

It concerns yet another conduit. It's the "transmogrification conduit", from Shadow.

Actually I'll just post the text for now. I'll let TW suggest a Wiccan explanation, then I'll tell you what I think the text shows.

ANYA: You sold someone a Khul's amulet and a Sobekian bloodstone.
GILES: Yes, I believe I did. (takes receipt and examines it)
ANYA: Are you stupid or something?
GILES: Allow me to answer that question with a firing.

TARA: And the Khul's amulet, wasn't that a transmogrification conduit?
ANYA: Damn straight!

ANYA: Anyway, their high priest Khul had great mystic powers. He, um, forged an amulet with transmogrifying crystal.
WILLOW: Transmogrifying is changing a living thing into a different kind of thing.
GILES: We've managed to decipher the markings that were on the bloodstone that I sold - that she left with. Um, cobra. She's going to transmogrify a cobra.

GLORY: Chant!
Dreg opens the scroll and begins to chant in a foreign language. Titles at the bottom of the screen translate.
DREG: The form is vessel, rendered new. The base is stone, bathed in blood. The gem is fire and elements rarified...
GLORY: (speaks English) Sobek, grant the power ... (Dreg continues chanting) that it may mold this wretched creature ... that it may be reborn ... that it may serve ...

 

[The Arcane]

On the props department: So that's what were going to do now? If we see something we don't agree with, we'll blame the props department. :winking11

Personally i think it would be pointless to even try and pretend that mistakes didn't happen on the show, especially during season seven. Do i need to point out the glaring errors in First Date?

There are many, many occasions on Buffy and Angel, in fact any television series, where errors crop up and what is said in the script doesn't necessarily go along with what is seen, or a prop mysteriously disappears from one shot to the next.

Or am i to expect that you will soon be starting a thread trying to explain the fact that Giles' glasses kept on disappearing and reappearing during a scene in Phases. Couldn't possibly be a prop error so let's spend a week tring to find evidence in the text that Giles' glasses could turn invisible! 🙄

Mistakes happen and occasionally what is seen does not tally with what is said. That is just the realities of making television.

I actually agree with Black Eye Guy. I think Willow is probably either catalyst or conduit. That's what makes sense to me.

Now you could also re-interpret the text to fit your external beliefs better. That's cool. enoy yourself.

Firstly, if Willow is either the conduit or the catalyst then why do they even bother to mention the fact they are needed in the script? Why would Anya mention something that would already be there, in the shape of Willow? Now who is ignoring the text?

Secondly, i'm not re-interpreting anything at all. Both our explanations make perfect sense. The only difference is that my interpretation actually makes sense to the topic of witchcraft whereas your way of understanding it would make Anya seem like a crazy person to anyone who even remotely understands witchcraft.

A conduit and a catalyst can be the same thing! Suuuuuure it can!

I've seen nothing to suggest the scythe can't be used as a conduit. I'm going to move on.

Then you have clearly not understood a word i've said. I also have noticed that you have chosen to avoid all the evidence i have presented in the last few posts about why your theory is full of holes. Y'know, where i actually take the time and effort to explain to you why one object cannot be both things. Therefore, as i said previously, if you are so intent to make your idea work regardless of the fact that it makes no sense and you are totally misunderstanding the terminology, there is no real point in me trying to help.

Back to you, grasshopper! 😉

 

[The Arcane]

I don't know why i'm bothering here but here goes ... again!

Why are you assuming that the transmogrifying crystal is anything different to what i have already described? Many conduits are designed or forged for particular spells, in this case the gem is ideal for use in changing the physical form of something.

It would still need to be totally devoid of it's own power though to be any use as a conduit. Exactly the same as what i've been saying and exactly why it can be a conduit whilst the scythe (which contains power) cannot.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I was very confused by your last post N4H, I did not see what you were getting at.

And I just want to point out another thing to support the Scythe as the source of the energy for the spell in Chosen, We have said that we see the power travel from the scythe into Willow, but that can also be used for the scythe as a conduit hypothesis, but if you look at the moment where the spell ends, we see the power travel back from Willow into the scythe, this shows that it can't be the conduit because if it was just transferring the energies it would have just ended but the fact that we see the energy return from the conduit(Willow) to the source(The Scythe) does help support the hypothesis that it is the source!

 

[nerd4hire]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean BEG. Are you saying the power could return to the source, if the source was the scythe, but it couldn't return if the source was external. What about a system of water conduits that circulates water from a source through the pipes and pumps to feed a fountain then returns to the source. Is that possible? Hang on TW's getting pouty, I have to go visit him.

Yes TW I was impressed with the Wicca explanation for the Get IT Done spell. It doesn't explain the Transmogrification conduit, but I'm sure if we put our minds to it we'd find a way to do that too.

In fact this is interesting it showed me something. The writers create a basic idea. There's a power source, there's a conduit, and there's a destination. You apply wiccan lore to the problem, and you find a way to explain what happens. Now you say the explanation was always there in exact detail. The writers put it there intentionally. I say maybe they did, maybe they didn't. I do know they didn't have to if they didn't want to.

Here's the thing though. The writers present a situation that requires an explanation. We look within the text and we find an explanation. I accept you can do that. I'm sure if I point out the problems inherent in a transfomation crystal that make it unlikely to be a candidate for a neutral conduit, you can find an explanation.

But let's do that then. Let's try to make you happy. Let's try to find a compromise. Something that will allow you to create an explanation that will satisfy your belief system. Let's go at that.

OK there are different sections to the transmogrification spell right? Let's say...create a scythe that will be part of a multi-sectioned spell.

Maybe crystals can have power to work in the spell, right? Maybe the scythe can have power to work in the spell. Energy can get through a conduit, right? Energy can get through the scythe too. It was someplace, it got in. It got out.

But that would make it a conduit, and we can't have that because wiccan lore tells us the pure conduit part of the transference of energy spell has to be neutral. OK, we'll compromise. Let's allow the handle of the scythe to be neutral.

I'll throw one in here for BEG. Let's allow the scythe to circulate energy through the handle to a power source.

Go ahead give me a problem. I'll find you a solution. It's a flexible theory. Let's do it this way to try to get along.🙂

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean BEG. Are you saying the power could return to the source, if the source was the scythe, but it couldn't return if the source was external. What about a system of water conduits that circulates water from a source through the pipes and pumps to feed a fountain then returns to the source. Is that possible?

Ok well before I answer I have been looking around for an answer and can't find one, so i'm not sure, but can things travel both ways through the same conduit? cuz thats what I assumed, and I just realised I was wrong to do that cuz I don't know the answer, but in the example above, the water fountain, The water after it leaves the fountain has to find a differnt way back then the way it came, it cant travel both ways in the same conduit, and what we saw in Chosen was the energy returning through the same conduit.

Hang on TW's getting pouty, I have to go visit him.

lol 🙂