Season 5-The Plan That Never Happened

I was right. People (including Whedon) seemed really desperate of the idea of bringing back Fred, via a spell by Willow. So much so, that if AtS S6 had aired, they would be willing to dismiss the lesson that Willow's resurrection of Buffy in BtVS's S6 had served. Never mind that resurrecting the dead is wrong "“ just bring back Fred. If S6 had continued, Fred should remain DEAD.
 
Its hard for me to even imagine a season 6, w/ so many wonderful characters dead or gone. Though I would certainly trust Joss to make it interesting!

I think season 5 would've ended differently if a season 6 had been confirmed. Perhaps Fred wouldn't have 'died' to be replaced by Illyria (wasnt it made clear that Fred's soul was destroyed when Illyria moved in?). Instead maybe her soul would've been 'trapped'... setting up a Willow spell that wouldn't make her cross the resurrection line again. As much as I would like to see Fred return, I agree w/ what has been said regarding 1. Fred's death scene being outstanding! and 2. Willow learning not to mess w/ that again.

I loved season 5! And was excited that Angel went out soo well... no lame finales here! I do agree that we could have done w/ a few more crossover guest spots.

-Helga
 
Yes, but the Illyria episodes were already written before news of the cancellation had hit. The news came just before Smile Time, so one can assume that HITW and Shells were already in post-production. Or even done with post. The Illyria storyline would have been the same.
 
What I would have liked to have seen instead of the well taken rumour of Fred physically returning is Illyria gradually becoming more human like in essence. Taking on some of Fred's characteristics and quirks. And eventually becoming some sort of Fredyria type personality. We were already starting to see some fred traits coming out in Illyria (talking with plants, we saw fred do that in season 3's "That Old Gang of Mine"; The overwhelming curiousity, and eventually her compassion towards Wesley).

Another point to consider. A soul is made of energy. And neither energy nor matter can be destroyed. It takes another form. Or is absorbed. But it is not destroyed. Take for example the definition for Consume taken from dictionary.com

con·sume Pronunciation Key (kn-sm)
v. con·sumed, con·sum·ing, con·sumes
v. tr.

1. To take in as food; eat or drink up. See Synonyms at eat.
2.
1. To expend; use up: engines that consume less fuel; a project that
consumed most of my time and energy.
2. To purchase (goods or services) for direct use or ownership.​
3. To waste; squander. See Synonyms at waste.
4. To destroy totally; ravage: flames that consumed the house; a body consumed by cancer.
5. To absorb; engross: consumed with jealousy.


Now yes one definition, namely #4, clearly states "To destroy totally". But in destroying totally we are only changing the matter into something else. When a house is burned down as used in their example, the fire destroys the state the house was formally in and then transforms it into ash, meaning only the visage of its former state was destroyed. It is now ash, the ash is the new state.

But in terms of a soul, which is energy, energy is consumed all the time. But when energy is consumed this often means it is absorbed.

So that being stated. Fred's soul was not destroyed as Wesley had assumed Sparrow's statement "Her soul was consumed by the fires of ressurection" to mean. Her soul was consumed and thus absorbed into Illyria. This being a big part of the reason Illyria has been becoming more Fredlike.

Ok I'm done with the big long science class lesson now lol.
 
Yes your right her soul was destroyed, there was no way she could have came back..unless magically they went back through time.
 
I would have really liked it if Fred and Illyria would be split - Fred was a great character, and Illyria was a great character. Why not have them both?

I can't say I'm sad about the Nina/Oz thing not coming to pass...
 
Kaden said:
What I would have liked to have seen instead of the well taken rumour of Fred physically returning is Illyria gradually becoming more human like in essence. Taking on some of Fred's characteristics and quirks. And eventually becoming some sort of Fredyria type personality. We were already starting to see some fred traits coming out in Illyria (talking with plants, we saw fred do that in season 3's "That Old Gang of Mine"; The overwhelming curiousity, and eventually her compassion towards Wesley).

Another point to consider. A soul is made of energy. And neither energy nor matter can be destroyed. It takes another form. Or is absorbed. But it is not destroyed. Take for example the definition for Consume taken from dictionary.com

con·sume Pronunciation Key (kn-sm)
v. con·sumed, con·sum·ing, con·sumes
v. tr.

1. To take in as food; eat or drink up. See Synonyms at eat.
2.
1. To expend; use up: engines that consume less fuel; a project that
consumed most of my time and energy.
2. To purchase (goods or services) for direct use or ownership.​
3. To waste; squander. See Synonyms at waste.
4. To destroy totally; ravage: flames that consumed the house; a body consumed by cancer.
5. To absorb; engross: consumed with jealousy.


Now yes one definition, namely #4, clearly states "To destroy totally". But in destroying totally we are only changing the matter into something else. When a house is burned down as used in their example, the fire destroys the state the house was formally in and then transforms it into ash, meaning only the visage of its former state was destroyed. It is now ash, the ash is the new state.

But in terms of a soul, which is energy, energy is consumed all the time. But when energy is consumed this often means it is absorbed.

So that being stated. Fred's soul was not destroyed as Wesley had assumed Sparrow's statement "Her soul was consumed by the fires of ressurection" to mean. Her soul was consumed and thus absorbed into Illyria. This being a big part of the reason Illyria has been becoming more Fredlike.

Ok I'm done with the big long science class lesson now lol.
Click to expand...

Your assuming that a soul is, or can be analogous to, energy or matter... it's a supernatural concept and therefore there is no reason to say with certainty that her soul follows the laws of thermodynamics or that it is made of anything we understand with science. In that case her soul could simply have been totally destroyed and nullified, no longer having any existance at all. Of course if we wanted to be really scientific about it, there is no reason at all to think the 'soul' is anything but a certain set of electrical impulses in the brain, which I guess could be reproduced exactly, though the idea of getting that exactly right is statistcally baffling. Then again it supports your 'Fredyria' idea, because as Ilyria tells Wesly, some electrial impulses (memories and infromation in her brain) flowed into Ilyrias 'function system' as she called it when Fred was consumed. So it could be that in a sense all of Fred is already fully a part of Ilyria, only it's Ilyria in the driver's seat.
 
Oz/Nina is a total news to me, an interesting idea indeed. I'd love to see Oz to return.
 
prydain17 said:
I would have really liked it if Fred and Illyria would be split - Fred was a great character, and Illyria was a great character. Why not have them both?
Click to expand...
Because that would have destroyed the whole tragic, fatalistic and final dimension that came with turning Fred into Illyria in the first place. Why stating the consummation of the soul (first time ever in the Whedonverse) and then weasel a way out of it. That would cheapen the whole idea and the final goodbyes between Wes and Fred/Illyria.

Oz return? Glad I didn't have to see that. I loved Oz on BtVS but I really hate to see AtS as a *collecting pit* for ex-BtVS characters. Spike, Andrew, Harmony, Oz ... get them a S8 of Buffy if they have to be but leave Angel alone.
 
I don't see any reason for Fred to return. Her character had been fully explored and Illyria would be a much better addition to the series. Also, why would Angel want to bring her back after Wes died?

"Hey Fred, we brought you back but your true love is dead and we don't own Wolfram and Hart any more. Welcome back!"

That'd be ridiculous!

But Oz coming back, that'd be a long overdue return. And especially with Nina there, I can see some interesting possible plotlines.
 
galathea said:
Oz return? Glad I didn't have to see that. I loved Oz on BtVS but I really hate to see AtS as a *collecting pit* for ex-BtVS characters. Spike, Andrew, Harmony, Oz ... get them a S8 of Buffy if they have to be but leave Angel alone.
Click to expand...

Angel, Cordelia and Wesley were also originally in BtVS. If you see AtS as a collecting pit, then its of your opinion that AtS was second rate to BtVS.


I think Oz would have been a welcome addition to the show.
 
Psychotic Jackass said:
Angel, Cordelia and Wesley were also originally in BtVS. If you see AtS as a collecting pit, then its of your opinion that AtS was second rate to BtVS.
Click to expand...
LOL you have a point but I always considered AtS Angel, Wes and Cordys home who only happen to also have been in that other show that I can't cleary remember :blah:
 
ok i only read the first half of this thread but just gotta say NO!

im really glad none of this happened! wether it was going to or not. which im sceptical about. as far as i believed, joss didnt make plans like that. im sure i heard him say in something that he treated every season like the last.

however, much as i love oz (and i really really do!) that storyline would have upset me! oz was amazing in the one episode he was in but as a regular or semi regular it wouldnt work. for a start, theyd have to bring nina back. i wasnt a big fan. also, the nina/oz relationship would have disturbed me. oz should be with willow. i wouldnt like him with anyone else. especially nina.

as for the illyria/fred thing. impossible. the whole point was there was nothing left of fred. no soul, no nothing. thats what made everyone accept her death as permanent. not even willow would have the power to change that! plus it would undermine the entire illyria storyline if fred came back. to easy, to happy. not something that ever happens on angel.
 
That sounds like it could have been a wicked season! I love the idea of bringing in Oz and Willow (and Oz helping Nina), it would have definitly been worth a watch!

The only thing in that plan wouldn't be too keen on is the Illyria thing. I just think (as much as I loved Fred) it would have been too much to bring her back AND have Illyria, it was such a powerful episode when she died, and Amy Acker did an awesome job with her new role. It would almost be too cheesy (for lack of a better word) you know? I mean it'd make it seem like death in the Buffyverse just isn't a huge thing anymore, Joss would just bring 'em all back anyway... And I couldn't see Willow doing the spell after what happened in BTVS season 6 with Buffy.

I think I would have rathered seeing Illyria's character expanded on some more (seeing her struggle to "fit in" and adjust to her new life), the character truly had great potential, and had a very powerful role. In her personality, her physical abilities, as well as the emotional aspects for her and the other characters of having her in Fred's body. Going from such a quiet, not meek but not very agressive character like Fred to Illyria was a huge step, and although I was saddened to see Fred of all people go, I would have loved to see Illyria expanded on.
 
I wasn't a fan of Oz so this plan does not interest me in the slightest lol.

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but Eve was meant to become a main character in season six...
 
Beyond just the characters and relationshps for a season 6"”the setting would have been so radically unlike the rest of Buffy/Angel. It would have morphed into more of a sci-fi show, which would have been interesting to see (if the post-apocalyptic rumors are true).

I guess Pylea might have been something like a preview"”a totally alien setting, with a lot of the noir feel abondoned, I would assume. Maybe it would have felt a little like Fray, or even LOTR mixed with Road Warrior? Or, even a Western feel, like Firefly. Weird to contemplate...
 
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