Season 9 news #2

[InsaneMystic]

*pokes head into thread, reads a bit*

Hm. I can't bring myself to care about it anymore. I guess the Shark's, indeed, been Jumped, as far as I'm concerned.

*toddles out of the subforum again*

 

[Anca]

I guess the Shark's, indeed, been Jumped, as far as I'm concerned.

What "shark" are you talking about? Please explain.

 

[white avenger]

What "shark" are you talking about? Please explain.

1. jump the shark 1814 up, 201 down

a term to describe a moment when somethin that was once great has reached a point where it will now decline in quality and popularity.

Origin of this phrase comes from a Happy Days episode where the Fonz jumped a shark on waterskis. Thus was labeled the lowest point of the show.

That's from this site:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jump the shark

which means, I assume, that, in InsaneMystic's opinion, at least, the great ("Buffy The Vampire Slayer" series) has at some point since the end of Season 7, fallen.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

http://www.bamfas.com/2012/02/review-angel-faith-7-daddy-issues-part-two/

Review "“ Angel & Faith #7 Daddy Issues Part Two
By Jenny
"“ February 19, 2012
Angel and Faith tango with people from their past in the new arc, how will this stack up for fans and for the story in general?

Script: Christos Gage
Art: Rebekah Isaacs
Colors: Dan Jackson
Cover: Steve Morris
Alternate Cover: Rebekah Isaacs with Dan Jackson
Executive Producer: Joss Whedon
Published By: Dark Horse

With the nutty and always entertaining Drusilla (Mother Superior) back in London, we begin this issue with a mini flashback showcasing some of the evil Angelus did to Dru which would eventually cause her to become who she is today. Even though we are told nothing new in the flashback, I always love to see them because they do a really good job reminding us of what Angel used to be. This flashback also has another familiar face in it as an added bonus! Back to present day, where Angel and Dru are getting"¦reacquainted? More to the point, a changed Dru is getting into Angel's head (which only seems fair considering their past) while Angel tries to figure out how and why this has happened. Dru explains that she has decided to take a page out of Angel's book and start "helping the helpless", but of course, she is doing this in only the way Drusilla would.

We also see that Faith has a surprise of her own. Her father has come to town and has hopes of reconnecting with his estranged daughter. However, Faith is none too happy about this and essentially blows him off. Despite the fact that Angel's hands are full with the wackiness that is Drusilla, he persuades Faith to give her dad a chance (again) but will this be the relationship that she hopes for?

This issue is excellent from start to finish. Anything involving Drusilla is always entertaining. The new Dru is very different from any Dru we have ever seen in the past. Faith's Dad's storyline also looks like it's going to be a very interesting one and it will be great to see where it will go and how Faith will deal with the many potential outcomes. The art is fabulous as always, Rebekah Isaacs captures Dru perfectly. With both Angel and Faith dealing with demons (both figuratively and literally) from their past, this could be a really amazing story arc!

Release Date: February 29th, 2012

I wonder if "a familiar face" in the flashback is Darla or Spike.

 

[Tyger tyger]

From the looks of the preview pages Angel is whispering in Darla's ear on the title page. Unless the reveiwer is talking about another flashback (which would be great to see the whole Scourge of Europe together) Darla is probably who they mean. But the date at the top says 1860 so Spike was sired pretty much right after Drusilla... so who knows? I girl can hope... Rebekah Isaacs drawing William the Bloody would pretty much make my week.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Hey, Tyger tyger! *waves* Welcome to the thread and to the forum!

Just yesterday a fan posted a Spike sketch by Rebekah Isaaks (it was comissioned by a fan at a con)
https://p.twimg.com/AmEUjSrCIAE1Iye.jpg:large

Do you believe in coinсidences? 🙂

 

[Tyger tyger]

I LOVE THAT SKETCH! and thanks for the welcome! *waves back*

 

[ladydorotea]

Yeah, it's just a coincidence that he keeps having these conversations with random new characters about his love for Buffy. In fiction this is never a set up for, you know, romance. Coincidence, nothing more, right? I don't know about you but in fiction whenever I see a guy heroically claiming he is okay with his unrequited love for somebody and yet the woman in question is still single and it seems that she might have a thing for the guy after all, in 99% of the cases this is exactly the case and they do hook up in the end. I don't like Spuffy at all, mind you, but the set up seems so obvious to me. Heck, Willow went...somewhere just so Spike would be the one Buffy would turn to about the abortion thing.

Oh it might be a bit clumsy execution of the :

Selective Obliviousness 😛


Regarding unrequited relationships involving someone with Selective Obliviousness; even if everyone else is aware of someone's crush on that person, nobody will ever mention the possibility to the practitioner...

Stop laughing. This is one person's cross to bear alone.

Usually, this is supposed to denote a sense of innocence; however, to more cynical viewers, it may appear that the person either consciously or subconsciously knows, and just doesn't want to deal with it.

(Besides, in Whedon's stories when everybody and their aunt tells a would be couple that they ought to date , it usually ends up with them rushing to a place of the appointed cumshack only to find themselves at the bottom of an ocean/in another plane respectively. Just saying. )

What has she used him for exactly?

Here is another link to a trope called

All Take And No Give

Sorry for being a bit obtuse with these references - but if you scroll down to Live Action TV examples of this one, S6 Spuffy is actually one of the shining examples ( except when it slips into The Masochism Tango - a trope of which All Take is a sub-trope.) It seems to me that this season we have the exact same configuration so far - with an additional flavor of Selective Obliviousness.

And this prevents the whitewashing of his Twilight-stint how exactly?

Twilight stint is a complex issue that is not IMHO exactly black-and-white , which in all seriousness cannot be discussed in a thread like this. I believe it to be yet unresolved, you believe it to be all closed and buried. I suggest we wait and see on this one.

 

[Icarium]

Oh it might be a bit clumsy execution of the Selective Obliviousness

Once again I have to ask, so what? How does that preclude Spuffy from happening? I never said it was a highly original story or that it's any good, just that it's painfully obvious where it's headed.

Besides, in Whedon's stories when everybody and their aunt tells a would be couple that they ought to date , it usually ends up with them rushing to a place of the appointed cumshack only to find themselves at the bottom of an ocean/in another plane respectively. Just saying. )

Usually as in once? Sure, this being Joss "I Hate Happy couples" Whedon, things will most likely go badly at some point but at first there will be some pandering to the shippers.

Twilight stint is a complex issue that is not IMHO exactly black-and-white , which in all seriousness cannot be discussed in a thread like this. I believe it to be yet unresolved, you believe it to be all closed and buried.

No, I don't. I believe it was retconned into "Angel killed Angel but see, it wasn't really his fault" rather than the original "Angel is so criminally stupid we need to explore whether he deserves to live at all".

Sorry for being a bit obtuse with these references - but if you scroll down to Live Action TV examples of this one, S6 Spuffy is actually one of the shining examples ( except when it slips into The Masochism Tango - a trope of which All Take is a sub-trope.) It seems to me that this season we have the exact same configuration so far - with an additional flavor of Selective Obliviousness.

Great, now explain to me why it seem to you that this is the case in S9. With examples because that's what I asked for, not TV Tropes links. I waste enough time on that site without any help, thank you very much. 🙂 Not to mention I really don't see S6 Spuffy as poor widdle Spikey being abused by big meanie Buffy anyway...

 

[ladydorotea]

Once again I have to ask, so what? How does that preclude Spuffy from happening? I never said it was a highly original story or that it's any good, just that it's painfully obvious where it's headed.

It really depends on how you define 'Spuffy happening'. Some might say Spuffy already happened in arc 1 - meaning it all went back to the he stalks and grovels, she mocks but comes back to ask for more favors and boons. If you mean will they sleep together again sooner or later - it might or might not already happened ( but the same can be said about S7 'sleepover') , what is obviously not happening is a normal loving relationship. So, while it might headed towards yet another iteration of a seasonal All Take and no Give - I cannot see why this time it should excite anybody - it will all end the same way as usual too.

Usually as in once? Sure, this being Joss "I Hate Happy couples" Whedon, things will most likely go badly at some point but at first there will be some pandering to the shippers.

Actually, it happens a lot in Whedon's stories. His MO is procrastinating with the not-meant-to-be relationships till cows come home, then kill it in the last episode. Meaning if things are not happening right from the start - they would likely be dragged out all the way with various delaying tactics - then won't happen anyway

Great, now explain to me why it seem to you that this is the case in S9. With examples because that's what I asked for, not TV Tropes links. I waste enough time on that site without any help, thank you very much. 🙂 Not to mention I really don't see S6 Spuffy as poor widdle Spikey being abused by big meanie Buffy anyway...

If you read their example the 'All take no Give' actually has two different modus operandi - soulless Spuffy was the second - when the Giver actually deliberately addicts the Taker to being dependent, hoping to control them by way of creating addiction and trying to strip them of all their healthy friends/connections ( you belong in the dark with me, etc.) The pattern this season seems to be All Take and no give number 1: Spike is in his Stalky the Clown mode again - Buffy in her I never turn to you unless I am in a need of a bit of a dark place' ( stated by the writer directly). As I said already - she never even bothers to stop and ask her 'extreme doormat' about his opinion, his feelings are conveniently skipped over - just when he is about to confess, etc. The whole 'this baby might be anybody's - even his, but I don't really care to ask to know for sure' thing is very much extreme definition of the one way street relationship - one that usually gets dragged out forever without any need on the Taker's side to stop and define it - because they are just comfortable enough with where it is and there is no need for more. To put it blunt, Spike's feelings are indeed unrequited - but it does not stop her from using him as her support base.

 

[Icarium]

So, while it might headed towards yet another iteration of a seasonal All Take and no Give - I cannot see why this time it should excite anybody - it will all end the same way as usual too.

I am arguing what I think will happen, not whether it will be any good. In fact, I have already said plenty of times that I expect S9 Spuffy to be boring as hell.

Actually, it happens a lot in Whedon's stories. His MO is procrastinating with the not-meant-to-be relationships till cows come home, then kill it in the last episode.

Not really. He is far more likely to first get the couple together, then break them up, then get them together again just in time for one of them to be killed (Giles/Jenny, Willow/Tara, sort of Xander/Anya and Buffy/Spike in the end of S7) . Since I doubt any of Spike and Buffy will get killed or leave the comic any time soon I don't think this applies here.

1: Spike is in his Stalky the Clown mode again

He is? I can't say I see it this way.

As I said already - she never even bothers to stop and ask her 'extreme doormat' about his opinion, his feelings are conveniently skipped over - just when he is about to confess, etc.

She doesn't ask for anyone else's opinion either, if you mean opinion about the abortion. And I reckon we will hear Spike's opinion in the next issue anyway.

The whole 'this baby might be anybody's - even his, but I don't really care to ask to know for sure' thing is very much extreme definition of the one way street relationship - one that usually gets dragged out forever without any need on the Taker's side to stop and define it - because they are just comfortable enough with where it is and there is no need for more.

Again, she doesn't ask the other potential fathers either, is she using Riley, Xander, Heirich, etc. too?

 

[ladydorotea]

Not really. He is far more likely to first get the couple together

Once again, I think our argument boils down to defining 'getting the couple together'. If 'getting together' is satisfied by getting in the same book for a season then yup, already happened. If by getting together you mean starry-eyed romance and HEA , no, I don't see it happening. In fact, the pregnancy arc pretty much defined the status quo. One side gives , the other side takes with no giving back. So far, I see no 'getting together' of Spuffy being predestined in all the secondary characters urging Spike to confess. You say it implies happy happy, I say it might as well imply drag out to get nowhere.

then break them up, then get them together again just in time for one of them to be killed (Giles/Jenny, Willow/Tara, sort of Xander/Anya and Buffy/Spike in the end of S7) . Since I doubt any of Spike and Buffy will get killed or leave the comic any time soon I don't think this applies here.

Exactly my point. Since usual killing off (or broken apart by killing a father figure) after insane moment of happiness does not apply, and the space ship is still there - the get together romantically to be tragically separated pattern - does not apply. And the spaceship is still there - therefore the character can depart any time on another adventure.

He is? I can't say I see it this way.

I do. He first gets a message 'Pratty', then called 'you are dead', 'I will probably miss you', Stalky the Clown, etc.; then himself admits he is only gets called when the dark place beacons.

She doesn't ask for anyone else's opinion either, if you mean opinion about the abortion. And I reckon we will hear Spike's opinion in the next issue anyway.

Nope. She goes to Dawn for support first, then to Robin for opinion/advice. Spike is on the potential fathers list and yet he only gets a call when she already decided on abortion.

Again, she doesn't ask the other potential fathers either, is she using Riley, Xander, Heirich, etc. too?

Exactly my point - because she does not care who of them from the list is the father, therefore their input is not important.

 

[Icarium]

Exactly my point. Since usual killing off (or broken apart by killing a father figure) after insane moment of happiness does not apply, and the space ship is still there - the get together romantically to be tragically separated pattern - does not apply. And the spaceship is still there - therefore the character can depart any time on another adventure.

Except that Joss also has created plenty of romances who have been going on for seasons at a time before the break-up/tragic death, so I don't see why we should assume that this new edition of Spuffy is certainly doomed and the break-up will happen soon. I wish this were the case, mind you, but I doubt it.

Nope. She goes to Dawn for support first, then to Robin for opinion/advice.

Robin had info that Spike doesn't possess, so it's quite irrelevant that Buffy asked him abotu said info rather than ask Spike or anyone else. Dawn wasn't asked for an opinion abotu the abortion either, so...

Spike is on the potential fathers list and yet he only gets a call when she already decided on abortion.

I really don't believe Buffy seriously considers Spike as being on that list.

Exactly my point - because she does not care who of them from the list is the father, therefore their input is not important.

Great, now explain to me how this is "using them"? I do find Buffy (and Dawn's) complete disinterest in finding who the father might be very silly, mind you, I just don't think it has much to do with Buffy using anybody.

 

[Reddygirl]

Buffy doesn't go to anyone for advice re rather or not she should get a divorce. What she wants from Robin is insight into what it was like to have a Slayer as a mom.

Buffy called Spike because she wante to someone who is close to her to be with her. It could have been Dawn or Xander so her picking Spike isn't necessarily shippy.

What is shippy to me is that even though Spike still believes Buffy only comes to him to get on her dark, Buffy's asking him to accompany her to the abortion clinic shows that is not the case.

 

[ladydorotea]

Except that Joss also has created plenty of romances who have been going on for seasons at a time before the break-up/tragic death, so I don't see why we should assume that this new edition of Spuffy is certainly doomed and the break-up will happen soon. I wish this were the case, mind you, but I doubt it.

Examples please? Especially ones that do not go on as unrequited for 5+ seasons , with attempted rape as one of the plotlines? Mind that Spuffy as a romance can be dubiously called as going on 'for seasons', with all due honesty, it was suspended in limbo and dragged on without much happening for seasons.

Robin had info that Spike doesn't possess, so it's quite irrelevant that Buffy asked him about said info rather than ask Spike or anyone else. Dawn wasn't asked for an opinion about the abortion either, so...

You mean that Spike being on that 'list' is emotionally irrelevant? Thanks for admitting that much.

I really don't believe Buffy seriously considers Spike as being on that list.

Neither do I. But. It is a point the writers wanted to make.

Great, now explain to me how this is "using them"? I do find Buffy (and Dawn's) complete disinterest in finding who the father might be very silly, mind you, I just don't think it has much to do with Buffy using anybody.

A single female finds herself pregnant an not sure who the father is. Instead of spending any momentary effort on actually figuring that puzzle (of who she slept with), out, she quickly decides that asking for help a guy, who is (from her PoV) will never refuse her anything but would never ask for anything in return ( because he owes her) is preferable to dealing with actual father who might have a claim or two on both the fetus and her decision to have an abortion. How is this not using? It never occurs to her that 'running away with her' might not be in his plans for nearest future? It never occurs to her that being a vampire having a child might be an opportunity of an un-life-time. How is this not using?

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

You know what, that is a fair point. I think I disagreed with the original post because I felt it was saying that I, and other Bangel shippers, should feel degraded by S8. And I don't feel like that at all and I don't much appreciate being told that I should feel that way.

I never thought Bangel shippers should feel degraded by Season 8. I don't think any fan should feel degraded because their ship goes through a dark time. If that were true, all of us Spuffies should feel mega-degraded, lol.

I just feel that Angel's actions as Twilight reflect very, very poorly on his character - which, until this time, has been mostly very strong. The spacefraking wasn't so bad - yeah, it was cheesy and over-the-top, bordering on softcore but not bad - what was bad was Angel saying that Twilight, this "place of pleasure", his "paradise" where him and Buffy could be happy and together, regardless of who died or what mayhem it caused. Angel couldn't understand why Buffy wouldn't choose him over her friends. That's what never made sense to me, and never will. Angel of all people should understand loyalty to family. He's gullible enough to believe that the universe "chose" them, and all they need to do is "leave behind" their friends, family, and the rest of humanity. The very people Angel had dedicated his life to protecting. Sure, he follows her in the end, and that's great, but...what if she had agreed? What then? Who would that make her? Who would it make him? I go over this scene over and over and I still can't understand why Angel could be so stupid.

Anyhow, I'm digressing, true...my whole point here is that while I don't think that you should feel degraded by any means, I find it hard to believe that anyone could justify Angel and what he has done. Sure, he could have been "under the influence" but the only for-sure we've gotten is that he "might have been." That's not good enough for me. He seems well enough to me. All I can astertain is that Angel has changed, and I don't like the person he is now.

As for Bangel and the spacefraking, whatever. It is what it is. I didn't think the actual fraking was degrading, more like what was said after that got to me.

I can twist S8 in ways that I am more comfortable with it. I can make sense of it, but I have to do it in a way that I really don't want to. No matter what way I look at it, my Angel and my Bangel lost (or had taken from them) elements of who they are that I feel are fundamental to who and what they are.

Does that mean I stop shipping or stop believing? Not in a million years.

🙂

🙂

 

[Reddygirl]

I see that in my previous post I wrote "divorce" instead of "abortion".

I don't think any ship has to feel degraded either. Look at how Willow violated Tara's mind. Or how Xander was sometimes condescending to Anya. Or Willow and Xander cheating on Cordy and Oz.

 

[white avenger]

That's what never made sense to me, and never will. Angel of all people should understand loyalty to family. He's gullible enough to believe that the universe "chose" them, and all they need to do is "leave behind" their friends, family, and the rest of humanity. The very people Angel had dedicated his life to protecting. Sure, he follows her in the end, and that's great, but...what if she had agreed? What then? Who would that make her? Who would it make him? I go over this scene over and over and I still can't understand why Angel could be so stupid.




🙂

As for the loyalty to family and friends, Angel's human family experience was far from ideal, and the same could be said for his vampire "family." Darla left him in a situation where he might well have died on at least one occasion, and totally rejected him at his moment of greatest crisis, when he was cursed with his soul. Other than Buffy, he never felt or was shown any real loyalty, or even much in the way of actual friendship by the Scoobies, especially after Season 2. He was close to Cordy, Wes, and Fred on his own show, but they're dead. Gunn? I'm not so sure that theirs was much more than a close working partnership, especially after the "After The Fall" arc. Angel MIGHT feel some affection and loyalty to Connor, but it's never really been shown after a brief couple of moments in Season 5. My point is, besides Buffy, at the time of Season 8, Angel apparently has no one who he would actually feel a tremendous amount of loyalty or even great affection for. Leaving the world behind and starting a new existence with Buffy probably wasn't as much of a hard decision as we might imagine.

And as for dedicating his life to "helping the helpless," I have gotten the distinct impression that he lost sight of what he was supposed to be doing on that front even before taking over W&H. I think that the Mission and its ultimate reward (the Shanshu) became more important to Angel than the people who he was actually supposed to be protecting. If you recall, Cordy attempted to remind him of that fact, but I honestly can't where it did a whole lot of good, considering the fact that his next action was to put the entire population of LA in direct and severe danger by provoking a battle that landed them all in the hellmouth.

Angel has definitely changed over the years, and, as we are seeing in Season 9, the person he has changed into is far removed from the hero and aspiring champion that he wanted to be when he first met Buffy in Sunnydale.

 

[cordangel]

Joan the Vampire Slayer wrote:
"I just feel that Angel's actions as Twilight reflect very, very poorly on his character - which, until this time, has been mostly very strong."
(...)
That's what never made sense to me, and never will. Angel of all people should understand loyalty to family. He's gullible enough to believe that the universe "chose" them, and all they need to do is "leave behind" their friends, family, and the rest of humanity. The very people Angel had dedicated his life to protecting.

Precisely. This is not Angel.
And gullible? Angel-us? The master of mind-games? Please!

"I find it hard to believe that anyone could justify Angel and what he has done."

I don't find any reason to justify JOSS WHEDON and HIS CHOICE to write Angel so out of character.

 

[white avenger]

I don't find any reason to justify JOSS WHEDON and HIS CHOICE to write Angel so out of character.

Since the story line is either written by Joss, or under his direct control, the whole Angel/Twilight thing is, whether we like it or not, canon. I will say, however, that he has definitely changed the Angel who the fans came to know into a different, much darker character. As to why he has chosen to do so, I really can't say, unless it was done purposely in order to make Season 9 a more Spuffy orientated series. If that is, indeed, the case, we can probably expect some sort of epiphany in the last few issues, aimed at bringing the "old" Angel back for Season 10.