Season 9's Big Bad?

[white avenger]

There are paradox issues with going back and changing things we saw happen, though.

True, but there are often ways to avoid paradoxes. Thak for instance, Xander wanted to rescue Anya. What he would do is to go back to the time period between Buffy and the gang left the school building and everything collapsed, and retrieve her body in those last few seconds. Then, he could bring her to a time just before Buffy expelled all magic from the universe, find a wizard who could determine that Anya was only "mostly dead" (think of Wesley in "The Princess Bride") and restore her. Then they could travel on to the present, no paradoxes involved. Once here, since the future is fluid, not yet determined, anything that Anya did would be no more paradox-making than what anyone else did.

On the other hand, Anya dying in the hellmouth might, itself, have been the paradox, caused by D'Hofryn's (?) manipulations and plots. Rescuing Anya might actually put time back on its designated path (think of Mia Sara in "Time Cop")

Of course, rescuing Anya is only one example. Something similar could be worked out to excuse bringing back any dead character, from Jesse at the beginning of Season 1 to any of the people who died in the hellmouth in "Chosen," or throughout ATS, like, maybe Doyle, Lilah, Lindsey, Cordy, Wes...

See? When one literally owns the universe, the way that Joss does, he is, in a very real sense, that universe's god. He can impose, and justify that imposition, absolutely anything that he wants to without causing paradoxes, chaos, or apocalypse. Unless, of course, he actually WANTS paradoxes, chaos, and apocalypse.

(Once again, that's all just double talk, misdirection, and downright B S, but as a literary tool, it could work as well as anything else)

 

[moopop]

True, but there are often ways to avoid paradoxes. Thak for instance, Xander wanted to rescue Anya. What he would do is to go back to the time period between Buffy and the gang left the school building and everything collapsed, and retrieve her body in those last few seconds. Then, he could bring her to a time just before Buffy expelled all magic from the universe, find a wizard who could determine that Anya was only "mostly dead" (think of Wesley in "The Princess Bride") and restore her. Then they could travel on to the present, no paradoxes involved. Once here, since the future is fluid, not yet determined, anything that Anya did would be no more paradox-making than what anyone else did.

On the other hand, Anya dying in the hellmouth might, itself, have been the paradox, caused by D'Hofryn's (?) manipulations and plots. Rescuing Anya might actually put time back on its designated path (think of Mia Sara in "Time Cop")

Of course, rescuing Anya is only one example. Something similar could be worked out to excuse bringing back any dead character, from Jesse at the beginning of Season 1 to any of the people who died in the hellmouth in "Chosen," or throughout ATS, like, maybe Doyle, Lilah, Lindsey, Cordy, Wes...

See? When one literally owns the universe, the way that Joss does, he is, in a very real sense, that universe's god. He can impose, and justify that imposition, absolutely anything that he wants to without causing paradoxes, chaos, or apocalypse. Unless, of course, he actually WANTS paradoxes, chaos, and apocalypse.

(Once again, that's all just double talk, misdirection, and downright B S, but as a literary tool, it could work as well as anything else)

I was referring more to the things we know causing paradoxes. The Scythe, for instance. Buffy and the gang can't go back and get it because then they wouldn't have had it all along.

Yes, Joss can make his own rules, but I really doubt he wants to further trivialize his stories by changing more constants.

 

[VisionGirl]

Besides, it's not a literary device that Joss uses very often at all- in fact, the only instances I can think of actually moving through time involve Angel & Illyria in Time Bomb, and Buffy & Fray in TOYL. There are of course instances of alternate universes & the day getting set back in IWRY (OK, so maybe that counts).

 

[white avenger]

I was referring more to the things we know causing paradoxes. The Scythe, for instance. Buffy and the gang can't go back and get it because then they wouldn't have had it all along.

No. but they COULD go back to the time when the Guardians first forged it (let's just assume that they discover when that was) and get them to forge a second one, then either take it back with them or hide it someplace where they could find it when they returned home. That would explain how Buffy could destroy the scythe in her time, but it still be intact in Fray's time.

Remember, the Guardian said in Season 7 that Buffy's scythe wasn't the only weapon forged for the Slayer's use. She could very well have been referring to a secong scythe.

For that matter, Buffy's scythe could be re-forged the same way that Sigmund broken sword was re-forged for his son, Sigfried. (I bet you were going to say the way that Aragorn's sword was re-forged in "The Return Of The King," didn't you?)

 

[VisionGirl]

Remember, the Guardian said in Season 7 that Buffy's scythe wasn't the only weapon forged for the Slayer's use. She could very well have been referring to a secong scythe.

Wow, I do not remember that at all. And speaking of the Guardians, why in the world can't we have them in season 9?

 

[moopop]

No. but they COULD go back to the time when the Guardians first forged it (let's just assume that they discover when that was) and get them to forge a second one, then either take it back with them or hide it someplace where they could find it when they returned home. That would explain how Buffy could destroy the scythe in her time, but it still be intact in Fray's time.

Remember, the Guardian said in Season 7 that Buffy's scythe wasn't the only weapon forged for the Slayer's use. She could very well have been referring to a secong scythe.

For that matter, Buffy's scythe could be re-forged the same way that Sigmund broken sword was re-forged for his son, Sigfried. (I bet you were going to say the way that Aragorn's sword was re-forged in "The Return Of The King," didn't you?)

Except it can't be reforged without magic, no? Since the Slayer essence or whatever is connected to it.

Given that the space boink is directly related to the Frayverse since they show it being the cause, I got the impression it was the same Scythe.

We don't know how much of the Frayverse will be retconned anyway. We saw how the demons were locked away and no one got sucked in. Unless that's the arc for S9-10, that Willow somehow opens a portal and all hell breaks loose.

 

[white avenger]

Except it can't be reforged without magic, no? Since the Slayer essence or whatever is connected to it.

Given that the space boink is directly related to the Frayverse since they show it being the cause, I got the impression it was the same Scythe.

If Buffy and Spike could travel back to the time when the Guardians first forged the scythe, there WOULD be magic to forge another scythe. And I think, or maybe I just imagined, that Buffy's scythe and Fray's were two different weapons. Otherwise, we get into one of the classic time travel paradoxes. The sctrhe couldn't exist in two places at the same time,

 

[VisionGirl]

Comments on this post
white avenger agrees: Wasn't that the last guardian in Season 7? If not, given what's happened in Season 8, I would think that one or more would almost certainly appear in Season 9.

Yes, I did think she said that. I was thinking more on the lines of either another last hidden one somewhere or more likely flashbacks, especially if there was another weapon forged, and maybe Buffy or Willow is going to seek it out in season 9. Faith does have access to Giles' library in his flat, and Buffy has the Vampyre book, so it would be cool if there were additional info about the Guardians.

Except it can't be reforged without magic, no? Since the Slayer essence or whatever is connected to it.

Given that the space boink is directly related to the Frayverse since they show it being the cause, I got the impression it was the same Scythe.

We don't know how much of the Frayverse will be retconned anyway. We saw how the demons were locked away and no one got sucked in. Unless that's the arc for S9-10, that Willow somehow opens a portal and all hell breaks loose.

The problem is that the original Fray story was unfinished IMO, and now it's time to start filling in some of the blanks. Obviously some sort of opening between dimensions occurred: the lurks/vampires starting becoming more numerous, Fray was called, Urkonn came to train her, that dragon-thingey fought her etc. Just because the connection to magic is gone doesn't mean it will always be there, and I'm not even sure if it's a complete break anyway. (For some reasons Doctor Who's cracks in the walls are in my head LOL!)

If Buffy and Spike could travel back to the time when the Guardians first forged the scythe, there WOULD be magic to forge another scythe. And I think, or maybe I just imagined, that Buffy's scythe and Fray's were two different weapons. Otherwise, we get into one of the classic time travel paradoxes. The sctrhe couldn't exist in two places at the same time,

Hmm, I thought they were the same, but I'll examine it more when we get to that point in our re-read. You're probably right, though, and who's to say that there's not more than 1 scythe? Now I'm trying to remember who gave Fray the scythe, was it Urkonn? I like this idea of more mystical weapons that were forged long by the Guardians before magic was expelled- are you listening Joss?

 

[white avenger]

Yes, I did think she said that. I was thinking more on the lines of either another last hidden one somewhere or more likely flashbacks, especially if there was another weapon forged, and maybe Buffy or Willow is going to seek it out in season 9. Faith does have access to Giles' library in his flat, and Buffy has the Vampyre book, so it would be cool if there were additional info about the Guardians.


The problem is that the original Fray story was unfinished IMO, and now it's time to start filling in some of the blanks. Obviously some sort of opening between dimensions occurred: the lurks/vampires starting becoming more numerous, Fray was called, Urkonn came to train her, that dragon-thingey fought her etc. Just because the connection to magic is gone doesn't mean it will always be there, and I'm not even sure if it's a complete break anyway. (For some reasons Doctor Who's cracks in the walls are in my head LOL!)


Hmm, I thought they were the same, but I'll examine it more when we get to that point in our re-read. You're probably right, though, and who's to say that there's not more than 1 scythe? Now I'm trying to remember who gave Fray the scythe, was it Urkonn? I like this idea of more mystical weapons that were forged long by the Guardians before magic was expelled- are you listening Joss?

I went back and re-watched "Touched" and "Chosen," and I couldn't find any place where the Guardian actually said that there ever was more than one Slayer weapon, whether it be a duplicate scythe or anything else. However, she said "WE're the last surprise," which gave me the impression that there might be one or more other Guardians still alive, and, if there are more Guardians, Season 9 would definitely be the time for them to reveal themselves. And if there are more Guardians, there could just as easily be more Guardians, guarding them until the time comes for them to be used.

 

[moopop]

The problem is that the original Fray story was unfinished IMO, and now it's time to start filling in some of the blanks. Obviously some sort of opening between dimensions occurred: the lurks/vampires starting becoming more numerous, Fray was called, Urkonn came to train her, that dragon-thingey fought her etc. Just because the connection to magic is gone doesn't mean it will always be there, and I'm not even sure if it's a complete break anyway. (For some reasons Doctor Who's cracks in the walls are in my head LOL!)

Thing is Joss included that history into the future arc, so he probably plans to stick to it on some level. Or it's entirely possible he messed up with the broken Scythe.

But yes, there has to be some loopholes if Spike's ship can still travel through dimensions. I'm fairly sure Willow will attempt to open a portal. To get back on topic, I don't think there will be a big bad, just a bunch of little ones and the biggest little bad will be Willow.

My suspicions are she opens the portal and Buffy will be the one to close it. Opening it might be what changes her from human. Buffy being gone might explain why FDW has to go all the way back to that time period to get the right person to kill her.

 

[Litheran]

"And so it was, in the time when magic and demons did return from their exile; the slayer line was restored. As the very essence of magic did reconstitute; so the very weapon which had caused it's destruction did repair itself."

Has anyone seen my plot bunny; I can't leave him alone anywhere; here Mr. Jenkins, here boy.

 

[BffyAngelBoi]

"And so it was, in the time when magic and demons did return from their exile; the slayer line was restored. As the very essence of magic did reconstitute; so the very weapon which had caused it's destruction did repair itself."

Litheran: Where is this from? That sounds very, very Joss-like. If it's yours, KUDOS! But I'm also a little disappointed if it's not from Joss, because that would be such an amazing explanation for how the scythe is available to Mel when she is called.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

What if they go forward in time, say 500 years or there abouts? Joss could do more with Mal, River, with Buffy's influence.
Or they end up going back in time, to when Buffy wakes up in the school and is never chosen?

The final piccy of season 9 could be of Jenny, a corporeal First; "Finally, we got rid of her, now, MY TURN!"

And the start of season 10? Giles putting the book on the counter at the library, "Vampyres."
And Buffy's words are, "What are they?" Then Giles begins another time loop, for the third time. And he will do it a fourth time if the First does not win.

 

[Hale Caesar]

In case anyone missed this info, in one of the season 8 panels (I can't remember which one) Georges and Scott Allie said that magic is definitely gone in the Buffyverse. They are setting up Fray's future world and want to keep it canon, so any Big Bad's we do get probably won't have magical powers

 

[moopop]

You mean like when Allie said Angel wouldn't be in S8 other than flashback and dreams? Or when he said the Buffy/Spike relationship would be respected? Or when he said Angel wasn't really the guy behind all the abuse, terrorism and slaughter? Color me doubtful on taking Allie's word on anything.

S9 will be a fruitless attempt to re-grasp the feeling of the show. That's what it's advertised as. Most of the pluses Allie mentions are things people didn't like about S8. With his continued mocking of the fanbase like you see in his 10 Reasons list, there is no reason to think it will be different. #3 on his list should tell you everything you need to know about what S9 will be like.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Magic is a relative thing in Jossverse.

In Frayverse, there are vampires and demons. In "Fray", Harth opens a portal. There are PTB. Willow still can muster some magic, to create an image.

Joss rewrites his own rules every season.

 

[mandi]

where can i get season 8 as i cant find it anywhere, im in the uk

 

[VisionGirl]

In case anyone missed this info, in one of the season 8 panels (I can't remember which one) Georges and Scott Allie said that magic is definitely gone in the Buffyverse. They are setting up Fray's future world and want to keep it canon, so any Big Bad's we do get probably won't have magical powers

Allie & Whedon have made it clear that they'll set the rules for the magic-less earth as they go. We know that Slayers & vampires & other demons haven't lost their powers, but new ones can't be "made">

where can i get season 8 as i cant find it anywhere, im in the uk

[ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=buffy+season+8"]Amazon.co.uk: buffy season 8[/ame]

Looks like they have new & used- pretty good prices.

---------- Post added at 11:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 AM ----------

Don't know why that link didn't work, try starting here: [ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Buffy-Vampire-Slayer-Long-Home/dp/1593078226/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1308672692&sr=8-2"]Buffy the Vampire Slayer Volume 1: Long Way Home: Amazon.co.uk: Georges Jeanty, Andy Owens, Jo Chen, Joss Whedon: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513qpMafwYL.@@AMEPARAM@@513qpMafwYL[/ame]