Season four "Chip-in-the-head"

[Chasing Cordy]

Just curious...
How exactly does this chip know if Spike is hurting a demon or a person?
Isn't he able to override the chip's programming by thinking a person is demonic?

[I know...strange question, but it just came to me now]

 

[Witchy Willow]

I don't think he would be able to override the chip's programming. As you know, The Initiative are against demons therefore I'm sure they'd be able to program the chip to be able to identify demons. How, I don't know but I'm sure they'd be able to do it.

 

[FahrbotDrusilla]

ummmm does it MATTER?

 

[Witchy Willow]

ummmm does it MATTER?

I would have to agree with you on that!

 

[The Arcane]

Just curious...
How exactly does this chip know if Spike is hurting a demon or a person?
Isn't he able to override the chip's programming by thinking a person is demonic?

[I know...strange question, but it just came to me now]

No, because the chip clearly works on a subconscious level. Even the act of pointing a fake gun at Xander in The Yoko Factor managed to cause Spike pain. If Spike believed, even slightly, that he was about to harm a human being then it would activate, no matter how much he tried to pretend otherwise.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

My issue is with the fact that you can train a subconcious.........you can make it believe what you want, so why didn't Spike try to train himself.
We know he can attempt an attack if he didn't believe he was going to make any contact.....so why not try to use that.....work it into himself somehow.

 

[The Arcane]

Not really. You can subconsciously train the conscious mind but the whole point of the subconscious is that it is out of your own control. It is something you cannot influence yourself.

There is a small possibility that Spike could have had somebody else influence his thoughts. Say, have himself hypnotised into believing that all humans were demons. There is no saying how well that would have worked though. Hypnosis is nothing more than a superficial controlling effect over your true inner thought and feelings, same as brainwashing, so it depends just how deeply the chip was able to delve into Spike's mind. If it was able to detect the truth of what was going on in there, rather than the artificial lie then it would still activate no matter what Spike was believing at that time.

There is also the very strong possibility that the chip wasn't totally dependent on what Spike believed. When he punched Tara in Family he honestly had no idea whether she was demonic or not. The punch caused him pain, thereby proving she was human, but as he didn't know that then you have to assume that the chip had other failsafes involved.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Actually that is wrong. The Subconcious is sill somewhat of a mystery, BUT it can be trained none the less.
The subconcious may drive on instinct, and drive you, BUT there are ways that yu can imprint a pattern on to it, causing yourself to instinctively do things that would seem against what you would normally do.
Hypnosis is a different to what i was suggesting, but even that has some merit, as it works on the principal of clouding the subconcious.

Alos, you can't actually say Spike honestly had no idea. Tara looked Human, she woud have smelled Human, added to the fact there was now a seed of doubt in the whole thing because of her fathers reaction, subconciously he was being told she was human.
IF he had hit her before the group started questioning it, if her father hadn't started to stumble THEN you could say that Spike honestly had no idea, but thats not what happened, so we still have no evidence tat his chip works on anything other then his subconcious, which can be trained.

 

[The Arcane]

Actually that is wrong. The Subconcious is sill somewhat of a mystery, BUT it can be trained none the less.
The subconcious may drive on instinct, and drive you, BUT there are ways that yu can imprint a pattern on to it, causing yourself to instinctively do things that would seem against what you would normally do.
Hypnosis is a different to what i was suggesting, but even that has some merit, as it works on the principal of clouding the subconcious.

Alos, you can't actually say Spike honestly had no idea. Tara looked Human, she woud have smelled Human, added to the fact there was now a seed of doubt in the whole thing because of her fathers reaction, subconciously he was being told she was human.
IF he had hit her before the group started questioning it, if her father hadn't started to stumble THEN you could say that Spike honestly had no idea, but thats not what happened, so we still have no evidence tat his chip works on anything other then his subconcious, which can be trained.

Nope, you cannot truly add to the subconscious. Anything artificially added by means of hypnosis, brainwashing, whatever, only acts to block the subconscious, not alter it. And even then it is not something that an individual can do to themselves. There has to be an outside influence or stimuli.

As for the Tara issue, that is speculation at best. You could also argue, based on your original idea that Spike could make himself believe something given enough doubt, that he would choose to believe that Tara was a demon, simply so that he could get a little violence in without the headache that followed. Either way it would be speculation and therefore it makes more sense to take the issue at face value, as the script was written, and assume that the chip was able to detect the truth, rather than working purely off Spike's own beliefs, which in itself would not always be accurate.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Nope, you cannot truly add to the subconscious. Anything artificially added by means of hypnosis, brainwashing, whatever, only acts to block the subconscious, not alter it. And even then it is not something that an individual can do to themselves. There has to be an outside influence or stimuli.

As for the Tara issue, that is speculation at best. You could also argue, based on your original idea that Spike could make himself believe something given enough doubt, that he would choose to believe that Tara was a demon, simply so that he could get a little violence in without the headache that followed. Either way it would be speculation and therefore it makes more sense to take the issue at face value, as the script was written, and assume that the chip was able to detect the truth, rather than working purely off Spike's own beliefs, which in itself would not always be accurate.

Actually its a matter of training the subconcious, which has nothing to do with Hypnosis or Brainwashing.
The concious and the subconcious are both malleable things, that if effected in the corrected way, can be trained to believe things, can be trained to do things without realising them.
If the chip islinked to this then it is totally plausible that you could subvert the pain process by having themind believe its not doing what the eyes are telling it.


Also, the fact you use the word possibility in your initial statement proves that you realise your hypothesis is speculation based on some evidenciary support....its not fact...
I never claim my hypothesis to be fact, i say its another possible explanation...that has merit due to the whole situation.
Spike clearly hits Tara because he knows that thefroup are now hinting that she isn't a Demon, so, he is doing his 'deed' to prove that theory, not disprove it, as its possible he sees it as a way to ingratiate, granted through barbaric means, with Buffy, whom he has shown feelings for.

Like i also stated, if Spike had hit her before there was even question that she wasn't part Demon, then there is nothing in my comment to give credence to, but when he made the attack, that doubt was there.

 

[The Arcane]

Actually its a matter of training the subconcious, which has nothing to do with Hypnosis or Brainwashing.
The concious and the subconcious are both malleable things, that if effected in the corrected way, can be trained to believe things, can be trained to do things without realising them.
If the chip islinked to this then it is totally plausible that you could subvert the pain process by having themind believe its not doing what the eyes are telling it.

Aaah, now i think i know where you are coming from. The reason i misunderstood is that you are sort of mixing up two different concepts.

It is possible to "train" the subconscious, but not to make it believe a lie. The subconscious, by it's very nature, only accepts the facts, or at best what the individual believes to be fact. That is why hypnosis is not always successful and why brainwashing has varying degrees of success on different people. The subconscious is dependant on what the individual truly believes and no amount of false information can change that.

For example, if your subconscious mind was absolutely certain that a concept was untrue then basic levels of hypnosis could never make you believe the opposite. Even brainwashing under the duress of torture would not be able to sway your beliefs. If you were uncertain of a fact then you can be swayed one way or another.

That is why nobody can be influenced or hypnotised into believing they could jump off a building and fly. You subconscious would override what you were being told due to your basic survival instincts and you would resist.

You can only train your subconscious to believe what is true and use it to override anything yoru conscious mind tells you. say, you had an irrational fear of spiders, you could train your subconscious to make your conscious mind accept that that most spiders are no danger to you and gradually get over the fear.

What you are asking of Spike is to train his subconscious to believe a lie, that humans are in fact demons, which clearly is not the case. Therefore would not be effective.

Also, the fact you use the word possibility in your initial statement proves that you realise your hypothesis is speculation based on some evidenciary support....its not fact...

As for my use of the word "possibility", that wasn't in reference to my doubting my original statement. It was me being kind and allowing for a little speculation based on a theory that i don't actually believe is the case. 😉

I never claim my hypothesis to be fact, i say its another possible explanation...that has merit due to the whole situation.
Spike clearly hits Tara because he knows that thefroup are now hinting that she isn't a Demon, so, he is doing his 'deed' to prove that theory, not disprove it, as its possible he sees it as a way to ingratiate, granted through barbaric means, with Buffy, whom he has shown feelings for.

Like i also stated, if Spike had hit her before there was even question that she wasn't part Demon, then there is nothing in my comment to give credence to, but when he made the attack, that doubt was there.

Doubt would not be enough to override the effects of the chip. Remember when Spike attacked those two human thugs at the beginning of Smashed? Believing they were demons he jumped in and hit them, only to have the chip activate ...

BUFFY
What the hell are you doing?
SPIKE
I thought they were demons.
BUFFY
Way to go with the keen observiness, Jessica Fletcher.

Even when he was convinced he was attacking demons the chip was still able to sense he was wrong. In no way was it only acting based upon Spike's own beliefs.

 

[watcher1006]

How exactly does this chip know if Spike is hurting a demon or a person?

I thought this was tied into the mystical forces at play in the Buffy-Angel world, not having anything real to do with the science in our world. In other words, our science can't explain how the chip works.

Being in the microchip business myself, I always found the idea of the Initiative planting a behaviour modification microchip in Spike's head amusing. : grinyes

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Just about the subconscious thing... I am pretty sure it can't be trained, because it is something you have no control over, Like the fight or flight response, you are either one or the other, when confronted with Danger you will either fight it or run from it , and it is a process you have no control over and can't change - Or that's what my Biology teacher said, but he is an idiot so...

 

[The Arcane]

Just about the subconscious thing... I am pretty sure it can't be trained, because it is something you have no control over, Like the fight or flight response, you are either one or the other, when confronted with Danger you will either fight it or run from it , and it is a process you have no control over and can't change - Or that's what my Biology teacher said, but he is an idiot so...

Just to clarify that, the subconscious mind cannot be "trained" as in "altered" but it can be "trained" as in "strengthened".

By that i mean the subconscious mind believes only what you know to be true for a fact. You cannot lie to your subconscious. However your conscious mind can believe all sorts of nonsense because you are in control of that and you believe what you choose to allow yourself to believe.

In the case of phobias, as a way of explaining the difference, you cannot alter your subconscious mind to not fear something that is truly a danger to you. For example, your fight or flight response in your subconscious would override your conscious mind if you were to see a wild bear running towards you, making you run for your life. That is real danger and so you react according to your nature. That is rational fear and a basic survival response.

However, people do have irrational fear as well. Fear of things that aren't really all that dangerous and sometimes not even scary. Your subconscious knows that you are really safe but your conscious mind tells you that you are scared. In that case you can "train" your subconscious mind to help you realise the truth and remove the irrational fear altogether.

So again, the subconscious mind actually can be trained but only to tell you the truth. It cannot be trained to lie to you.

That is why, in the case of Spike, he could not train his subconscious to make him believe humans were demons. It would be a lie and his subconscious would know it. The chip, therefore, would be activated.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

In Fool for Love, Spike has a sparring match with Buffy.
We learn that he can attack if he has no intention of causing harm.
In that fight he managed to touch the Slayer, and even pin her, because he knew that he would not harm her.
The training the subconcious i have been getting at is NOT to make him believe that all Humans are Demons, but to believe that when he was making an advance, such as the Fool for Love, he could train the subconcious to believe he has no intention of causing harm.
The subconcious, is still hugely unknown, however, the Chinese, have used tactics in subconcious training for centuries, based on the fact you can train your body and mind to ignore pain, through the subconcious, you can also allow yourself to subvert a certain level of instinct through this means.
Its the instinct that i was suggesting Spike was working from, as i had forgotten the Smashed episode......Spike could have trained his subconcious to do this, if the chip was only connected to his Sub-Concious.

Also, like i stated, i forgot the Smashed incident, on the human attacking front, so the only evidence that i had on the topic at hand was the Tara incident, and based on that single attack, your theory was plausibly contested by the one i put forth.........

We don't all have time to sit and study all the episodes all the time for a forum do we😉

 

[The Arcane]

In Fool for Love, Spike has a sparring match with Buffy.
We learn that he can attack if he has no intention of causing harm.
In that fight he managed to touch the Slayer, and even pin her, because he knew that he would not harm her.
The training the subconcious i have been getting at is NOT to make him believe that all Humans are Demons, but to believe that when he was making an advance, such as the Fool for Love, he could train the subconcious to believe he has no intention of causing harm.

But that is exactly the same principle that i have already said would not work. Spike never intended to actually attack Buffy and he knew that he was not going to go through with the action. There was no fooling the chip or his subconscious involved because he simply did not intend to harm Buffy.

There is no way that he could fool his subconscious into actually letting him harm a human in that way because deep down he would be aware of what he truly wanted to do. Even the slightest awareness of intent would stop him from carrying out the act. In the case with Buffy he knew he was about to stop before actually touching her. If he had changed his mind, even for a second, the chip would have activated, and he would have to have made that choice to keep going with the attack or he physically would not have been capable of going through with it.

Basically, the second that his mind instructs his body to carry out an act that will harm a human being the chip activates, and his mind would have to have instructed his body or else his body just wouldn't make contact with said human being to actually carry out the attack. There is no training of the subconscious mind that can change those facts. Either he is instructing his body to stop or he isn't. The chip acts accordingly.

The subconcious, is still hugely unknown, however, the Chinese, have used tactics in subconcious training for centuries, based on the fact you can train your body and mind to ignore pain, through the subconcious, you can also allow yourself to subvert a certain level of instinct through this means.

As i understand this training involves a lot more than simple manipulation of the subconscious and takes many hours, if not years, of perfection. I don't think Spike was really the kind of person who would be that focused or patient to learn the skill! 😉

Its the instinct that i was suggesting Spike was working from, as i had forgotten the Smashed episode......Spike could have trained his subconcious to do this, if the chip was only connected to his Sub-Concious.

Also, like i stated, i forgot the Smashed incident, on the human attacking front, so the only evidence that i had on the topic at hand was the Tara incident, and based on that single attack, your theory was plausibly contested by the one i put forth.........

We don't all have time to sit and study all the episodes all the time for a forum do we😉

Nope, i know i certainly don't. Good job that my memory is pretty damn good otherwise i would recall half the stuff i've watched and read over the years! Definately helps in debates like this one! 😉

 

[Willowfan4life]

Tara had told buffy later in season 6 that her molecules or something like that were forced and the chip didn't recognize her as human. So then the chip has to have had the programing to tell when spike hit a human or a demon.