Secular Redemption

[Kana]

I feel kind of bad for posting threads more than posting any additions to existing threads, but I'll catch up soon...

I'm actually posting this at work (even though I shouldn't) and as you know the mind sometime wonders. I was wondering about people's view on redemption and how to achieve it.

People often talk about it in context of the 'Verse as something that can be achieved at a specific moment. This is somewhat supported by the Shanshu prophecy which most believe will go to the vampire who manages to avert the apocalypse.

So the question is who is doing the rewarding? Is it the PTBs, is that the 'Verse equivalent of God?

I suppose what I'm getting at is that traditionally redemption was religious concept however there seems to be a strong humanist theme in the Verse as far as morality is concerned. Sure Angel, for example, would love forgiveness but who does he want it from. His own views seem to almost be agnostic on the subject. He even questioned whether there was someone up there watching and Buffy (who is not actively seeking redemption as far as I know but I'll mention her anyway) seems to be agnostic also.

Angel's view about his time 'never being up' seems to contradict the idea that redemption is a tangible goal that can be acheived at a specific time.

Our vampires seem almost cynical when it comes to absolution so it makes me wonder what they mean when they talk about redemption...

The other question I have is why Angel and Spike need to seek redemption. My Dad doesn't watch Angel or Btvs but he couldn't understand why they ensoulled vampires need to try and make up for their soulless deeds. I actually thought this was a good question as we cannot blame them for not following a conscience they don't have. Even a human as sensitive as William Pratt become a remorseless killer, so it doesn't seem fair that they should have make up the crimes of their soulless counterparts.


So if redemption is about absolution, who is doing the absolving and if this isn't clear then it seems pointless to commit to it for that reason. If it isn't about some cosmic sinwashing then what is it?

Any thoughts?

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I have no idea who will reward the chosen vamp with humanness. Maybe the demon in I Will Remember You has a brother who Angel stumbles on one day when he's done with all the world saving and that was what the propecy was about. Who knows if the seer/seers, PTB or whoever meant for the propechy to be. Maybe a seer saw it wrong, it wasn't a reward, it was a consequence. Propechy's could be wrong. Oracles would be fooled.

I never got the idea of redemption. It's seem like you can put whatever meaning you in that term, it's relative.

According to most characters on the show, is it to make up for bad stuff you've done? In that case, Angel & Spike have nothing to make up for (okay, Angel got some things, but that's another thread). They couldn't control what they did as soulless vampires. You might as well be mad at people who get drugged and go crazy and kill people and later sober up. But I get why Angel wants to make the world a better place after making it a bit worse for so long.

 

[Kean]

Great thread!

You know I never thought of Angel and Spike's quests for redemption in that way but I think perhaps the absolution they are seeking is from themselves. As you have stated neither seems to commit to the idea or belief in a higher being that is keeping score and both have said several times that they will never be redeemed.

In saying that the manner in which Angel seeks his redemption is very much in the Catholic definition of redemption:

The restoration of man from the bondage of sin to the liberty of the children of God through the satisfactions and merits of Christ.

The word redemptio is the Latin Vulgate rendering of Hebrew kopher and Greek lytron which, in the Old Testament means generally a ransom-price. In the New Testament, it is the classic term designating the "great price" (1 Corinthians 6:20) which the Redeemer paid for our liberation. Redemption presupposes the original elevation of man to a supernatural state and his downfall from it through sin; and inasmuch as sin calls down the wrath of God and produces man's servitude under evil and Satan, Redemption has reference to both God and man. On God's part, it is the acceptation of satisfactory amends whereby the Divine honour is repaired and the Divine wrath appeased. On man's part, it is both a deliverance from the slavery of sin and a restoration to the former Divine adoption, and this includes the whole process of supernatural life from the first reconciliation to the final salvation. That double result, namely God's satisfaction and man's restoration, is brought about by Christ's vicarious office working through satisfactory and meritorious actions performed in our behalf.


Source: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Redemption

To me it seems that Angel uses the Catholic methods of redemption but does not believe in the pay off. He knows that all the good that he does now could never right the wrongs of his past and I think that is what prevents him from believing in redemption actually being a real, tangible goal. To Angel redemption is an infinite thing. It neither begins nor ends.

I think redemption having an actual destination cheapens the it for Angel somehow. Like if he did somehow reach redemption and was redeemed it would be a lie to him because all that bad stays with you just as all the good does. Reaching that point would not mean that he could suddenly forget all that he had done, that he would no longer be tainted by his past.

As to why Angel and Spike feel they should atone ata all? Well for me that is because the difference between human and vampire and vampire with a soul aren't as great as we can sometimes make them out to be. I think there is alot of Liam/Angel in Angelus and vice versa. I think Angel feels like a part fo him, no matter how small did commit those crimes and perhaps he feels responsible for Angelus too.

 

[BillyidolwannaB]

I assumed Buffyverse vampires would believe in god seeing as religious things hurt them, for some reason. And Buffys been in heaven, so maybe she believes in god? I think Joss didn't want to bring religion into it, substitutes god for PTB.

 

[white avenger]

I tend to have a more lenient view of the whole concept of redemption than a lot of people seem to. Th me, redemption is achieved once the scales are balanced, as in the vampire in question reaches and surpasses the point of doing more good, as in, for example, saving more lives or helping more people than they had previously killed or harmed. As I said, this is not an opinion espoused by everyone here, and probably not even a majority, but it is mine, and I am stuck with it. That is why I believe that, in the single act of closing the hellmouth and preventing the First Evil from escaping, Spike, in saving the lives of every man, woman, and child on the planet, has achieved his redemption. His sense of guilt over the evil that he caused, however, will never allow him to accept that fact. Angel, who, by his own admission, killed more people than the Plague still has quite a way to go.

And, no, before anyone jumps on me for trying to make this another Spike vs Angel debate, I am not saying that Spike was any more DESERVING of redemption than Angel, he simply happened to be at the right place at the right time. It could just as well have been Angel who wore the amulet.

Whether or not either or both vampires have or ever will accept the redemption that they seek, however, is a purely moot point, because neither Angel nor Spike will ever forgive themselves, nor will they ever accept anyone else's assurance, that they have, in fact, done enough good to counterbalance the evil that they have done. That's what makes them heroes. The idea of, "I've done enough. Now I can rest," never even occurres to them.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

People often talk about it in context of the 'Verse as something that can be achieved at a specific moment. This is somewhat supported by the Shanshu prophecy which most believe will go to the vampire who manages to avert the apocalypse.

So the question is who is doing the rewarding? Is it the PTBs, is that the 'Verse equivalent of God?

No, let's discount Aftermath as it's non-canon and trash. Angel's all but given up on TPTB because he's realized that they're not perfectly good, but playing at their own agenda. The only reason that he gives them any credence is because he found out that Cordy's still working with them.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that traditionally redemption was religious concept however there seems to be a strong humanist theme in the Verse as far as morality is concerned. Sure Angel, for example, would love forgiveness but who does he want it from. His own views seem to almost be agnostic on the subject. He even questioned whether there was someone up there watching and Buffy (who is not actively seeking redemption as far as I know but I'll mention her anyway) seems to be agnostic also.

Angel's view about his time 'never being up' seems to contradict the idea that redemption is a tangible goal that can be acheived at a specific time.

Our vampires seem almost cynical when it comes to absolution so it makes me wonder what they mean when they talk about redemption...

Darla and Spike have alluded to believing in God, and the S4 implication is that most demons are scared of the Judeo-Christian God (Adam's whole shtick was taking that fear away from demons). But in terms of Angel, redemption and the Shanshu Prophecy are related, but not the same. Redemption's something Angel will work towards as long as he's conscious. He's been made human twice, and never ended his mission. There is no "big win" when it comes to Angel's redemption, but he'll continue to pursue it indefinitely.

Assuming Angel gets to Shanshu once he and Buffy's team banish all the Big Bads from Earth (see Fray), Angel's job will be much easier, if all the major demons are gone and he's human. But still, I imagine he'd continue his work in the way he began it, pursuing his redemption by helping people find theirs. Child runaways and abusive boyfriends were things Angel dealt with earlier on, and I imagine with the demons gone he'd pick back up on things like that.

The other question I have is why Angel and Spike need to seek redemption. My Dad doesn't watch Angel or Btvs but he couldn't understand why they ensoulled vampires need to try and make up for their soulless deeds. I actually thought this was a good question as we cannot blame them for not following a conscience they don't have. Even a human as sensitive as William Pratt become a remorseless killer, so it doesn't seem fair that they should have make up the crimes of their soulless counterparts.

Because there are three aspects to them, their Mind, their Soul and their Demon. Their Soul isn't what their trying to wipe clean, it's what's making them want to pursue redemption. Angel is not Liam and Spike is not William, their human parts are just slightly more of them then their demons. Angelus said that even at Angel's best his demon is just below the surface.

 

[Kana]

Lots of nummy replies. I'm not going to address people individually but...

It makes sense that Angel would consciously or unconsciously adopt aspects of a Catholic stance of redemption but if there isn't any then it takes on a whole new meaning already. It would seem that salvation from 'The Higher' is unattainable or even unwanted. All that would be left would be self salvation. Now this is actually an important point as Doyle and Cordy respectively point out. If there isn't any hope for himself then he can't give any hope to anyone else, which would make him quite the crap champion.

To the point about the scales being balanced? Angel attempted to reconcile the idea of the cosmic scale never being balanced and also finding hope, with Faith. In this view no matter how many lives you save, you can never restore the lives you've taken. He saved the world in Happy Anniversary but that doesn't bring back Holtz' family. Spike saved the world in Chosen but that doesn't bring back Robin's mother. Maybe the Higher ups would consider it enough to be redeemed but it really depends on the nature of who's doing the judging.

As for the Shanshu? I'm aware that it's not necessarily redemption (we're still searching for unifying definition) nor is it necessarily smething good. Nevertheless they may see it as a symbol of salvation. Even in Season 5 when they were talking about a the faux prophecy, it was described as something that would wash their sins away which is very similar to the traditional concept of redemption.

As for the soul/no soul distinction, this still doesn't tackle the issue that if you have a reasonable human and turn him or her into vampire, they appear to become killers. While their evil is specific to their personalities, it doesn't change te fact that it is impossible for them to follow a conscience they do not possess. While Spike lamented punishment is what he deserves, Angel almost seemed to imply that he didn't agree. He also stated to Connor what he deserves is open to debate. Where does this leave redemption?

My definition is perhaps it isn't about settling a cosmic scale, nor is it about self-loathing or blame. Maybe the mistake is attempting to define it from a detached emotionless perspective. It's possible that it is something personal. About seeing a darkness in yourself or in your past and allowing that to motivate you to be the best person you can be and not allowing the darkness to win. Not allowing the past to haunt or define you and keeping the darkness inside from making you it's prisoner. It's not a path that has to lead to suffering, nor does it have a time limit, nor does it necessarily have to be about fighting evil. In amongst the thorny path, we have hope. Hope for ourselves and hope the world can be better, that we can make it better. To me this seems like the healthiest attitude for Spike, Angel, Faith etc.
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