Selfless...Did Buffy hold back with Anya?

I think that Buffy was holding back, because, as many have already said, she tends not to go full force with her friends. Not to say she doesnt make the hard decisions when they come, but she does tend to try to give people a warning shot first.

Just think about the amount of times she could have killed Spike? And really, she would have known how to kill Anya. But, that said, if she really had to, in an end of the world situation, I dont think she would have hesitated to kill Anya, just like she killed Angel.
 
I completely agree. I think Buffy would have done whatever she had to do, to any one, in order to fulfil her duties as the Slayer. And it's always easy to say 'but she wouldn't have done it to so and so' when we don't see her in that position. As much as Willow was the Big Bad, Buffy never got into the situation of the 'final' showdown with her. She was stuck in a hole! (sw)

I definitely agree... I think Buffy may have held back with Anya a little, but in the end, she would have done what she needed to do to kill her. Anya had proven to be a real threat, and Buffy knew that if she continued on the path she was on, she would have to be taken out. So while she might not have been fighting at top Slayer strength, she would have unleashed the fury if she had to.
 
i think buffy could have easily done a little decapatation-age...but surely she held back. i think, like in most shows, stabbing her with a giant sword taught anya a lesson. And clearly it worked. All's well that ends well. But I still blame Xander....walking out on her at the wedding...HARSH! lol Enough to turn anyone into a raging "frat house" killing demon.
 
I don't think the remarkable part about this episode is that Buffy held back. I think the truly special, impressive, and amazing part is that Anya was willing to sacrifice herself. Anya was the one holding back, and Buffy probably sensed that and (because Anya is, after all, her friend) held back, too.

When Anya lays down, closes her eyes, and waits for Buffy's sword, I get goosebumps every time. Anya's awesome. 🙂
 
I don't think Buffy holds back so much as she gives these people (Angel,Spike,Willow,Anya,Andrew) every chance to stop/redeem themselves. When it is clear that isn't going to happen, then she does what she has to. The only time she didn't do that is with Faith, but there was much higher stakes as far as Buffy was concerned in that situation. Watching Angel die was not an option. I think Buffy, more than anything believes in the soul and its power. Next to Angel, she knows better than anyone the difference between having a conscience and going without one and I think she allowed her friends time to reconnect with theirs so to speak, rather than kill now and ask questions later.
 
I don't think the remarkable part about this episode is that Buffy held back. I think the truly special, impressive, and amazing part is that Anya was willing to sacrifice herself. Anya was the one holding back, and Buffy probably sensed that and (because Anya is, after all, her friend) held back, too.

When Anya lays down, closes her eyes, and waits for Buffy's sword, I get goosebumps every time. Anya's awesome. 🙂

That is definitely true... "Selfless" is one of my favorite episodes because of the backstory into Anya's life as a human and vengeance demon. Her decision to lay down her own life to make her wrongs righted was beautiful. I think both Anya AND Buffy held back with the other.
 
Yeah i think that she did hol d back.I mean she held back in every other fight so why not? Buffys never been good at killing peopl e she close to.
 
It is rather doubtful that Buffy was holding back. The timing of the dialogue more or less rules that out. Remember that at the beginning of the confrontation, Xander knocks Buffy out of the way in order to save Anya's life. Anya then says, Xander, stop trying to save me. In saying that, she just said that she has a deathwish. If Buffy understood that as such, then what's the point of continuing the confrontation? I mean, isn't the wanting to die from Anya being unhappy with her life? Say killing the Abercrombie & Fitch catalogue and/or not knowing who she is and/or still very much hurt by what we saw in Hells Bells? In other words, if you're looking towards Anya's redemption, that was the moment when you would know you have a path down that road. Buffy didn't take that path.

Also, consider what happens before Buffy leaves home to go find Anya. When leaving, Buffy looks for Willow to join her. As Buffy is walking towards the door to leave, she stops, since Willow hasn't moved from the chair, then she gives Willow that look, and Willow says in response, I can't. Can't what? Go kill Anya with you? If Buffy wasn't intent on killing Anya at that moment, then why not then tell Willow in response to her, I can't, that we won't kill Anya unless absolutely necessary but first we give her a shot at redemption? As Buffy herself said when talking with Xander and Willow prior, she'd thought about the matter and reached her decision on mission. On any fair view of the show, Xander had pleaded for mercy and Buffy said, no.

Also, consider the rebellion against Buffy later on in the season. Don't you think that part of what Xander, Willow, and Anya were thinking at the time was, you've already shown bad leadership, with one instance being when you set out to kill Anya, even though Anya, Willow and Xander all knew that Anya was not Anyanka again. As I've also said before, killing the Abercrombie & Fitch catalogue was simply and only Anya's attempt to prove to herself that Miss Soft Serve could once again be the feared Anyanka. Again, she failed miserably in that attempt. And Xander knew exactly where to find her...and he says shortly following his arrival...have you forced yourself to go look at the bodies yet? Forced? Anyanka drank wine while the Bolsheviks murdered, and had fresh blood on her gloves to prove her indifference to the pain she was causing. Quite simply, Anyanka would have been rather pleased with the killing and so wouldn't need to "force" herself to look at the bodies.

As I've always also said, Willow knew that Anya was not Anyanka. She saw Anya's face, when while at Anya's earlier in the episode, Anya tells her, don't you understand that I'm a vengence demon, and then Willow says in reply, no, and then there's that look on Anya's face that tells Willow and you and me that even Anya doesn't believe that she's Anyanka once again. She is, as the episode title indicates, Selfess. Not Aud, not Anya, not Anyanka. Or at least that what she thinks. And she wants to die because of that, and because the killing of the Abercrombie & Fitch catalogue is something that she can't live with.

Sorry, but Buffy screwed the you know what on this one, and as I've also always said, Willow is the hero of the episode for her correct read of Anya and her off-screen deal with D'Hoffryn.

Lastly, Anya's act was more selfish than anything else, as she didn't want to live anyway, so what the credit to her for exchanging her life for the Abercrombie & Fitch catalogue? And what did D'Hoffryn say on arrival, Miss Rosenberg thinks that Anyanka would be better served outside the vengence fold? If that happens, maybe no death for her as maybe Buffy has some mercy on her? But Anya can't have that, and so she's not exchanging her life for altruistic purposes and/or to right her wrong, she's exchanging her life because it's the only way that she can end the misery that comes with her Selfless state. And so she can live with her dead self, good that part of the suicide is bringing to life the Abercrombie & Fitch catalogue.
 
It is rather doubtful that Buffy was holding back. The timing of the dialogue more or less rules that out. Remember that at the beginning of the confrontation, Xander knocks Buffy out of the way in order to save Anya's life. Anya then says, Xander, stop trying to save me. In saying that, she just said that she has a deathwish. If Buffy understood that as such, then what's the point of continuing the confrontation? I mean, isn't the wanting to die from Anya being unhappy with her life? Say killing the Abercrombie & Fitch catalogue and/or not knowing who she is and/or still very much hurt by what we saw in Hells Bells? In other words, if you're looking towards Anya's redemption, that was the moment when you would know you have a path down that road. Buffy didn't take that path.
This, I believe, is evidence that Buffy WAS actually holding back. Anya wanted to sacrifice herself. Since when is it so difficult for a Slayer to kill a demon who already wants to be dead?

Plus..Buffy ran a sword through Anya's chest, knowing it wouldn't kill her. Why didn't she cut her head off in that moment, or something worse? Why stab her through the chest, when just a season earlier, with Halle, she learned that exact technique wouldn't work? Hell, why didn't she research how to kill vengeance demons before setting out to do just that?

I don't think Buffy ever wanted to kill Anya. Superficially, maybe, because Anya was a demon actively killing people again. But deep down, I don't believe she did. And that's what, I believe, caused her to hold back.

Also, consider what happens before Buffy leaves home to go find Anya. When leaving, Buffy looks for Willow to join her. As Buffy is walking towards the door to leave, she stops, since Willow hasn't moved from the chair, then she gives Willow that look, and Willow says in response, I can't. Can't what? Go kill Anya with you? If Buffy wasn't intent on killing Anya at that moment, then why not then tell Willow in response to her, I can't, that we won't kill Anya unless absolutely necessary but first we give her a shot at redemption? As Buffy herself said when talking with Xander and Willow prior, she'd thought about the matter and reached her decision on mission. On any fair view of the show, Xander had pleaded for mercy and Buffy said, no.
Your question can be answered with the fact that Buffy knew she should kill Anya, but that doesn't mean she wanted to. When Buffy went off to fight Angel in S2, did she tell anyone, "I'll only kill him if absolutely necessary, after giving him a chance at redemption?" No. Why? Because of many reasons...redemption may be too late, it may come at the cost of even more peoples' lives, both Angel and Anya had been attacking people for awhile, etc.
Anya was ending lives by the fistful. Buffy was the Slayer. She had killed her own boyfriend to save the lives of others, and I'm sure this weighed heavily on her decision. "I already killed Angel for being a brutal, murderous demon..why should Anya be exempt from this rule?" But Anya was exempt from the rule, because she felt remorse for what she'd done. I do not think Buffy would have actually killed her. I'll even stretch to say that Buffy was trying to get Anya to repent (as she did to Andrew in closing the seal).

Buffy made the tough decision. And yes, it may have been the wrong decision. But that doesn't mean she felt happy about it, or even whole-heartedly wanted to go through with it.

Also, Willow's reaction can be explained by what she had gone through, S6. While in pain, Willow had done some truly awful things. And I'm sure this made her sympathetic towards Anya, more so than maybe she should have been, and certainly more so than she would have been normally. Xander's reaction can, of course, be explained by his continuing love for Anya, and guilt of leaving her at the altar and essentially causing this whole mess. I don't know if we can trust their actions here, either.


Lastly, Anya's act was more selfish than anything else, as she didn't want to live anyway, so what the credit to her for exchanging her life for the Abercrombie & Fitch catalogue? And what did D'Hoffryn say on arrival, Miss Rosenberg thinks that Anyanka would be better served outside the vengence fold? If that happens, maybe no death for her as maybe Buffy has some mercy on her? But Anya can't have that, and so she's not exchanging her life for altruistic purposes and/or to right her wrong, she's exchanging her life because it's the only way that she can end the misery that comes with her Selfless state. And so she can live with her dead self, good that part of the suicide is bringing to life the Abercrombie & Fitch catalogue.

Well, that depends entirely on how you view her self-sacrifice. When she lays back, turns her head, and waits for Buffy to kill her...I view that in many ways. One way, yes, Anya was very unhappy with her life. But also, she didn't want to kill people. I think Anya was extremely lost. She didn't know what to do, what direction to take. She had found her niche with Xander, and that was shattered, so she went back to the only other thing she knew. The thing that had brought her comfort last time she had been betrayed by a man. Only this time, she received no comfort from it. Doing these awful things to people was killing her. But even then, she didn't see a way out. And I believe a good chunk of her sacrifice was because she did not want to be a vengeance demon anymore. She didn't want to hurt people anymore. And perhaps the only way out of that, she felt, was death. She knew D'Hoffryn, she knew his rage and mercilessness, I'm sure part of her expected to die if she tried to back out of her duties. And she was willing to die, not just because she felt unhappy and lost, but because dying was a way to right her wrongs. The episode is called Selfless, and I don't think there is a more selfish thing in the world than to kill yourself because you're sad. The title, in part, tells you about Anya's motives there.
 
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Well, that depends entirely on how you view her self-sacrifice. When she lays back, turns her head, and waits for Buffy to kill her...I view that in many ways. One way, yes, Anya was very unhappy with her life. But also, she didn't want to kill people. I think Anya was extremely lost. She didn't know what to do, what direction to take. She had found her niche with Xander, and that was shattered, so she went back to the only other thing she knew. The thing that had brought her comfort last time she had been betrayed by a man. Only this time, she received no comfort from it. Doing these awful things to people was killing her. But even then, she didn't see a way out. And I believe a good chunk of her sacrifice was because she did not want to be a vengeance demon anymore. She didn't want to hurt people anymore. And perhaps the only way out of that, she felt, was death. She knew D'Hoffryn, she knew his rage and mercilessness, I'm sure part of her expected to die if she tried to back out of her duties. And she was willing to die, not just because she felt unhappy and lost, but because dying was a way to right her wrongs. The episode is called Selfless, and I don't think there is a more selfish thing in the world than to kill yourself because you're sad. The title, in part, tells you about Anya's motives there.

Selfless = not Aud, not Anyanka, and not Anya. For the end of any rational debate, even after Halfrek is turned to toast in Anya's place and the Abercrombie & Fitch catalogue resurrected, it still is said by Anya to Xander:

"What if I'm really nobody..."

Selfless, as in, I'm nobody.

The act cannot be "selfless", since her "sacrifice" was only done to right her own wrong, and not somebody else's wrong. There's no sacrifice when I steal a dollar from you, and then pay it back later. It's called restitution and returns things to status quo ante. That's all. So don't get all "noble" about it, since with the good we have the prior bad. For less reason to be all "noble" about it here, who gets "sacrificed"? So Halfrek's the sacrificial lamb here, offered up to save Anya from her sin. So what did Anya sacrifice? Nothing.

Her mental state was indeed, my life isn't worth living, so now time to end it. Again, killing the frats boys was her attempt to prove to herself that she was somebody, Anyanka, and not nobody. She failed and was left with, in her own word, "nobody". And again, that's after it's all over, and she's "nobody". So much for the uplift that usually accompanies one's "sacrifice". Did something worthy, did you? Good, now you can feel good about yourself and your place in our world. Not her, she's nobody.

And I'm not a fan of suicide by cop. Once Anya failed her own test, that's what it was, with first Buffy and then D'Hoffryn playing executioner. Lucky for Anya, the strictly literal Aud was no more, or else she (Aud) would have caught the literal meaning of D'Hoffryn's words, here, life and soul of, a, one of many, vengence demon(s), and not, life and soul of the vengence demon who did the deed that need be undone, as the, a versus the, opened the door for Halfrek to be taken in Anya's place, and that's what Halfrek gets for calling Willow, "lemon drop".

And by the way, it was Willow's emotion in response to the "lemon drop" that prompted D'Hoffryn to say later in the episode.... didn't I sense a bit of the old you earlier today? Except D'Hoffryn misread her emotional state. Willow wasn't angry at Halfrek for the "lemon drop" so much, but instead for the fact that Halfrek was trying to poision her friend Anya by way of aiding Anya's return to the old Anyanka, and so it wasn't vengence but instead a loving protection that was the fundamental emotion of the moment, though the "lemon drop" no doubt caused the "rage" meter to rise a tad for just a bit there. As I said, Willow is the hero of Selfless. Refused to go on Buffy's mission and then went out and successfully prosecuted her own contrary mission. She saved her friend Anya. She new the choice that Anya would make. And so she allowed D'Hoffryn to think that Halfrek was vengence when it wasn't, and even though Anya isn't Anyanka any longer, she considers Halfrek a friend, on so some pain with Halfrek's death can be offered to D'Hoffryn as the price that Anya must pay for her own escape. Best deal ever made on the show. But the mental state that saved and won the day:

Don't you understand that I'm a vengence demon?
No.

She said it directly to Anya and later implied the same to Buffy when she refused to have anything to do with Buffy's mission [a mission that could end only in the death of Willow's friend Anya, and so time for Willow to refuse to go on Buffy's mission and instead come up with and execute an opposing mission]. Truly lastly, what did Buffy do here that merits any kudos to her? So she doesn't kill Anya rather quick so Willow can conceive and execute a mission that Buffy does not even know exists?

So what was Buffy's role in Selfless? She had one, yes? A good part of the show, comparatively speaking, is Xander trying to convince Buffy to let Anya live. He doesn't go on Buffy's mission. Neither does Willow. Why do you think that Buffy went on this mission alone? Because she had the right plan, or instead because Xander and Willow wanted no part of her mission? Do you not think that if "holding back" was in the works, that maybe Xander and Willow might have tagged along? And if you're looking to negotiate, why bring the sword?

Remember, Anya didn't become a vengence demon just prior to that moment. She'd been one again for a while, and no plan on her part to harm Buffy and no plan on Buffy's part to harm her. So why not go on over and talk, and leave the sword at home? Buffy couldn't. The murder(s) crossed the line, and in the Slayer versus anything and everything non-human motif, the murder(s) merited death by Slayer. That's why Buffy exists. As she tells some in season 6, we humans have a system to deal with humans like Warren, but not for vamps, demons, etc., and that's why I am here and why we can't kill Warren if we can reasonably take him alive [recall here, her convo with Xander and Dawn re why some need stop Willow before she too crosses the line and Buffy loses, in her own words, a friend]. So with murder, Anya had crossed the line, and so no more friend, and it was time to do what the Slayer does. What was needed here was not Buffy to be something that she never was, but a General, or Watcher, who can tell Buffy, stand down, as we will first try to conceive and execute an alternate mission, and then if that fails, you get perform mission and do your duty as Slayer.

Truly lastly, what did D'Hoffryn himself say? Isn't that just like a slayer, solving all her problems by sticking things with sharp objects? He was correct, as that is Buffy's mission as Slayer. And it helps to realize that even your "hero" is likely to make some egregious mistakes, and not just for tv but in real life as well. Lucky for Buffy, the only cost for the egregious mistake here was a v demon by the name of Halfrek. If only the rest of us could be so lucky.

---------- Post added at 05:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:10 PM ----------

flyonthewall:

Maybe this comparison will help re Buffy:

Anya: Don't you understand that I'm a vengence demon?
Willow: No.

Xander: Because you don't care about her the same way I do. Buffy, I still love her.
Buffy: I know. And that's why you can't see this for what it really is. Willow was different. She's a human. Anya's a demon.

Some saw her as human while the other saw her a demon. Explains why 2 didn't go on mission and why 1 came up with an opposing mission, and in contrast, why a third 1 went out on mission alone.

You and most of the rest miss the other element here, to wit, the Angel/Angelus element. It comes in this conversation, as Buffy remarks that she had to kill Angel, so she understands how Xander feels about not wanting to kill the one you love. And so Buffy claims to know what this is all about, matter of fact, she expressly says that emotion is clouding Xander's judgment [in so many words]. And that's why there is no mercy here. Remember, Buffy let Angeles go when she might have taken him out. Don't know if there were any others, assuming so, as vampires like to drink of the human blood, but we know for certain that Ms. Calendar died owing to Buffy's failure to eliminate Angeles as soon as the circumstance permitted. Buffy wasn't going to make the same mistake twice.

Her error here is not in mission, as she is Lady Hacksaway. Her error is instead in the "demon". In contrast, Willow did not "understand", meaning that she knew who Anya truly was, and not even Anya herself was going to convince her otherwise. And Xander brought up everything that had made Anya turn down the path towards Anyanka and begged Buffy to show mercy. No offer of mercy was extended.

Lastly, for you and rest, if she's holding back, then kindly explain:

Xander: ...You know, if there's a mass-murdering demon that you're, oh, say, boning, then it's all gray area.
Buffy: Spike was harmless. He was helping.
Xander: He had no choice.
Buffy: And Anya did! She chose to become a demon. Twice.
Xander: You have no idea what she's going through.
Buffy: I don't care what she's going through!

So, not just any demon, but one who has twice chosen to go that route. So even less reason for mercy here, and so I don't care what she's going through. Now again note the dichotomy between humans and others. Willow was different. She's a human. Anya's a demon. Twice. By her own choice [can't say that about Angel and Spike]. And she wasn't there to show mercy, but to kill, and in her own words to Xander: ...it's what I have to do. And so she left with the sword.

Lastly, as grandpa always said, never point the gun at anyone unless you intend to use it. Grandpa was a smart man, and he said what he always said because if you point the gun at some other human, that human might infer an intent to kill on your part and decide to kill you first. This last here is the problem with any holding back, since Anya doesn't know about the holding back, and she might get lucky and kill Buffy first. Grandpa would also know why I know that flyonethewall and most of the rest of you are wrong. You don't point unless your aim is to kill.
 
Buffy was definitely a little bit harsh on Anya. Spike was off killing dozens a day, and he barely gets a stake thrown at him.
 
Selfless = not Aud, not Anyanka, and not Anya. For the end of any rational debate, even after Halfrek is turned to toast in Anya's place and the Abercrombie & Fitch catalogue resurrected, it still is said by Anya to Xander:

"What if I'm really nobody..."

Selfless, as in, I'm nobody.

The act cannot be "selfless", since her "sacrifice" was only done to right her own wrong, and not somebody else's wrong. There's no sacrifice when I steal a dollar from you, and then pay it back later. It's called restitution and returns things to status quo ante. That's all. So don't get all "noble" about it, since with the good we have the prior bad. For less reason to be all "noble" about it here, who gets "sacrificed"? So Halfrek's the sacrificial lamb here, offered up to save Anya from her sin. So what did Anya sacrifice? Nothing.

Her mental state was indeed, my life isn't worth living, so now time to end it. Again, killing the frats boys was her attempt to prove to herself that she was somebody, Anyanka, and not nobody. She failed and was left with, in her own word, "nobody". And again, that's after it's all over, and she's "nobody". So much for the uplift that usually accompanies one's "sacrifice". Did something worthy, did you? Good, now you can feel good about yourself and your place in our world. Not her, she's nobody.

And I'm not a fan of suicide by cop. Once Anya failed her own test, that's what it was, with first Buffy and then D'Hoffryn playing executioner. Lucky for Anya, the strictly literal Aud was no more, or else she (Aud) would have caught the literal meaning of D'Hoffryn's words, here, life and soul of, a, one of many, vengence demon(s), and not, life and soul of the vengence demon who did the deed that need be undone, as the, a versus the, opened the door for Halfrek to be taken in Anya's place, and that's what Halfrek gets for calling Willow, "lemon drop".

And by the way, it was Willow's emotion in response to the "lemon drop" that prompted D'Hoffryn to say later in the episode.... didn't I sense a bit of the old you earlier today? Except D'Hoffryn misread her emotional state. Willow wasn't angry at Halfrek for the "lemon drop" so much, but instead for the fact that Halfrek was trying to poision her friend Anya by way of aiding Anya's return to the old Anyanka, and so it wasn't vengence but instead a loving protection that was the fundamental emotion of the moment, though the "lemon drop" no doubt caused the "rage" meter to rise a tad for just a bit there. As I said, Willow is the hero of Selfless. Refused to go on Buffy's mission and then went out and successfully prosecuted her own contrary mission. She saved her friend Anya. She new the choice that Anya would make. And so she allowed D'Hoffryn to think that Halfrek was vengence when it wasn't, and even though Anya isn't Anyanka any longer, she considers Halfrek a friend, on so some pain with Halfrek's death can be offered to D'Hoffryn as the price that Anya must pay for her own escape. Best deal ever made on the show. But the mental state that saved and won the day:

Don't you understand that I'm a vengence demon?
No.

She said it directly to Anya and later implied the same to Buffy when she refused to have anything to do with Buffy's mission [a mission that could end only in the death of Willow's friend Anya, and so time for Willow to refuse to go on Buffy's mission and instead come up with and execute an opposing mission]. Truly lastly, what did Buffy do here that merits any kudos to her? So she doesn't kill Anya rather quick so Willow can conceive and execute a mission that Buffy does not even know exists?

So what was Buffy's role in Selfless? She had one, yes? A good part of the show, comparatively speaking, is Xander trying to convince Buffy to let Anya live. He doesn't go on Buffy's mission. Neither does Willow. Why do you think that Buffy went on this mission alone? Because she had the right plan, or instead because Xander and Willow wanted no part of her mission? Do you not think that if "holding back" was in the works, that maybe Xander and Willow might have tagged along? And if you're looking to negotiate, why bring the sword?

Remember, Anya didn't become a vengence demon just prior to that moment. She'd been one again for a while, and no plan on her part to harm Buffy and no plan on Buffy's part to harm her. So why not go on over and talk, and leave the sword at home? Buffy couldn't. The murder(s) crossed the line, and in the Slayer versus anything and everything non-human motif, the murder(s) merited death by Slayer. That's why Buffy exists. As she tells some in season 6, we humans have a system to deal with humans like Warren, but not for vamps, demons, etc., and that's why I am here and why we can't kill Warren if we can reasonably take him alive [recall here, her convo with Xander and Dawn re why some need stop Willow before she too crosses the line and Buffy loses, in her own words, a friend]. So with murder, Anya had crossed the line, and so no more friend, and it was time to do what the Slayer does. What was needed here was not Buffy to be something that she never was, but a General, or Watcher, who can tell Buffy, stand down, as we will first try to conceive and execute an alternate mission, and then if that fails, you get perform mission and do your duty as Slayer.

Truly lastly, what did D'Hoffryn himself say? Isn't that just like a slayer, solving all her problems by sticking things with sharp objects? He was correct, as that is Buffy's mission as Slayer. And it helps to realize that even your "hero" is likely to make some egregious mistakes, and not just for tv but in real life as well. Lucky for Buffy, the only cost for the egregious mistake here was a v demon by the name of Halfrek. If only the rest of us could be so lucky.

---------- Post added at 05:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:10 PM ----------

flyonthewall:

Maybe this comparison will help re Buffy:

Anya: Don't you understand that I'm a vengence demon?
Willow: No.

Xander: Because you don't care about her the same way I do. Buffy, I still love her.
Buffy: I know. And that's why you can't see this for what it really is. Willow was different. She's a human. Anya's a demon.

Some saw her as human while the other saw her a demon. Explains why 2 didn't go on mission and why 1 came up with an opposing mission, and in contrast, why a third 1 went out on mission alone.

You and most of the rest miss the other element here, to wit, the Angel/Angelus element. It comes in this conversation, as Buffy remarks that she had to kill Angel, so she understands how Xander feels about not wanting to kill the one you love. And so Buffy claims to know what this is all about, matter of fact, she expressly says that emotion is clouding Xander's judgment [in so many words]. And that's why there is no mercy here. Remember, Buffy let Angeles go when she might have taken him out. Don't know if there were any others, assuming so, as vampires like to drink of the human blood, but we know for certain that Ms. Calendar died owing to Buffy's failure to eliminate Angeles as soon as the circumstance permitted. Buffy wasn't going to make the same mistake twice.

Her error here is not in mission, as she is Lady Hacksaway. Her error is instead in the "demon". In contrast, Willow did not "understand", meaning that she knew who Anya truly was, and not even Anya herself was going to convince her otherwise. And Xander brought up everything that had made Anya turn down the path towards Anyanka and begged Buffy to show mercy. No offer of mercy was extended.

Lastly, for you and rest, if she's holding back, then kindly explain:

Xander: ...You know, if there's a mass-murdering demon that you're, oh, say, boning, then it's all gray area.
Buffy: Spike was harmless. He was helping.
Xander: He had no choice.
Buffy: And Anya did! She chose to become a demon. Twice.
Xander: You have no idea what she's going through.
Buffy: I don't care what she's going through!

So, not just any demon, but one who has twice chosen to go that route. So even less reason for mercy here, and so I don't care what she's going through. Now again note the dichotomy between humans and others. Willow was different. She's a human. Anya's a demon. Twice. By her own choice [can't say that about Angel and Spike]. And she wasn't there to show mercy, but to kill, and in her own words to Xander: ...it's what I have to do. And so she left with the sword.

Lastly, as grandpa always said, never point the gun at anyone unless you intend to use it. Grandpa was a smart man, and he said what he always said because if you point the gun at some other human, that human might infer an intent to kill on your part and decide to kill you first. This last here is the problem with any holding back, since Anya doesn't know about the holding back, and she might get lucky and kill Buffy first. Grandpa would also know why I know that flyonethewall and most of the rest of you are wrong. You don't point unless your aim is to kill.
"Selfless" can't have dual meanings?

Personally, I think it's very clear at the end of this episode that Anya is somebody. She makes that choice. Last time the title of "vengeance demon" was stripped from her...this time, she chose to give it up. In that last scene, where she walks away from Xander, she has a self. Maybe not a self she understands or has come to grips with yet, but she is most definitely somebody.
She asks Xander "What if I'm really nobody..." Meaning, she's not really nobody.

And I believe that those that kill without control (Spike, Angel) are actually more dangerous than those that have control. What happened with Willow at the end of S6 resonates with what is happening with Anya. Right when Willow went dark, the viewer may have believed she had completely lost control of herself, due to her grief...but that was not the case, since Xander was able to reach her with his words. I think that this was on all of their minds. Like I said, I have no doubt that Buffy believed she SHOULD kill Anya, but that does not equate to her being able to kill Anya.

I don't think she went there to negotiate. But I also don't think she went there fully equipped to kill, either. 1) We have no evidence to suggest she even knew how to kill a vengeance demon! 2) She stabbed Anya through the chest with a sword, for apparently no reason. 3) Anya did not want to live, yet Buffy still couldn't kill her?

I stand by the belief that Anya didn't want to be a vengeance demon anymore. Not because she had killed people...it started before that. She had never wanted to become a vengeance demon again. She was too close to humans by this point to get any pleasure from it, yet she didn't see any other alternative or any way out of her commitment. And THAT is why she sacrificed herself. Remember...she was willing to sacrifice herself BEFORE D'Hoffryn told her it was the only way to bring the frathouse boys back. It's her reasoning behind that that is the true debate here.
 
A sad episode. I just watched it. Very hard choices to be made. But this is Buffyverse. Hard choices are being made.

I feel so sorry for Xander. And he is kinda right.What he said about Spike. He had a point. They can not just kill Anya. And Buffy was right too. But I felt so sorry for her when she started talking about how hard it was to kill Angel and FINALLY someone brought up the "kick his ass" matter! FINALLY! She is the Slayer and in the end...she will be alone. In everything she does even when her friends are with her, she is alone IMO.

Xander still loves Anya...and Buffy still loved Angel and still does,when she had to make one of the hardest choices in her life in Becoming.

D'Hoffryn is a real badass. And "from beneath you it devours"...I guess it is referring to the First or the Hellmouth. I can't wait to watch more episodes.
 
Selfless is my favourite episode, but honestly, the Buffy/Anya fight scene had me ready to kill Buffy. I think she held back to some extent, because she knew that Xander still loved Anya, and even though she and Anya had never been very close, they were still friends; they'd still known each other for four years. Although she held back, I think she still had plans to kill Anya; and I don't think she would have stopped if it weren't for D'Hoffryn interrupting because as she's pointed out Anya chose to became a vengeance demon again, chose to kill people. Considering in Older and Faraway Buffy saw Halfrek get a sword through the chest, and survive; she obviously knew Anya would live, she should have known that it wouldn't kill Anya; but I think that was her intention anyway, to kill her; I don't think she was holding back, exactly, but I don't think she exactly wanted to hurt Anya as much as she would with any other demon; just kill her.
 
Selfless is my favourite episode, but honestly, the Buffy/Anya fight scene had me ready to kill Buffy. I think she held back to some extent, because she knew that Xander still loved Anya, and even though she and Anya had never been very close, they were still friends; they'd still known each other for four years. Although she held back, I think she still had plans to kill Anya; and I don't think she would have stopped if it weren't for D'Hoffryn interrupting because as she's pointed out Anya chose to became a vengeance demon again, chose to kill people. Considering in Older and Faraway Buffy saw Halfrek get a sword through the chest, and survive; she obviously knew Anya would live, she should have known that it wouldn't kill Anya; but I think that was her intention anyway, to kill her; I don't think she was holding back, exactly, but I don't think she exactly wanted to hurt Anya as much as she would with any other demon; just kill her.

I agree that this fight made me kinda hate Buffy. Seeing how willing she was to kill Anya, when Anya had definitely done less evil than, oh, say, SPIKE pissed me off. I know that Anya had definitely proven that she was a threat; what she did to those frat guys was horrible, even if they did deserve some kind of punishment for what they had done to that poor girl. But I think that this episode proved that Buffy was more willing to overlook wrongs done by people she was closer to. 'Cause let's face it, Buffy and Anya were only friends because of Anya's connection to Xander.
 
Seeing how willing she was to kill Anya, when Anya had definitely done less evil than, oh, say, SPIKE pissed me off.
Please enumerate all evil things done by Spike since he got his soul (Lessons, Beneath you, Same Time Same Place, Helpless and Selfless) and compare them with brutally killing those frat boys.

A fair comparison would be with Willow.
 
Please enumerate all evil things done by Spike since he got his soul (Lessons, Beneath you, Same Time Same Place, Helpless and Selfless) and compare them with brutally killing those frat boys.

I never said anything about Spike after he got his soul back. But if you want a comparision, one could be the fact that even though he had a soul AND his chip, he was killing those people for The First. Even though The First was "pulling his trigger", Spike still did those things. And the argument for that was that Anya was being pressured by D'Hoffryn...
 
I never said anything about Spike after he got his soul back. But if you want a comparision, one could be the fact that even though he had a soul AND his chip, he was killing those people for The First. Even though The First was "pulling his trigger", Spike still did those things. And the argument for that was that Anya was being pressured by D'Hoffryn...

Well, Spike was being controlled by the First, not pressured, so there's a difference. Andrew was being pressured, so there would be a better comparison. But I do agree that Anya deserved as much allowance as Buffy gave Spike. I always really loved Anya's character, and I felt the Scoobies were often unfair to her.
 
It is true that Spike was being controlled and not pressured, so I'll give you that. I just felt like Buffy was a little too quick to turn her back on Anya.
 
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