That is just it again, she never became 'EVIL' she became a demon. Demon's aren't evil. You have seen Merl, Angel,Clem... and others. Becoming a demon doesn't mean you become evil. That is a misconception. She reverted back to the only thing she knew how to do wouldn't you if you were all alone with no one even trying to help you. She was with these people for years, she thought they cared about her. Not even Xander went to see her... mainly because he was the one to break her heart. When Willow sees her again they act as if they are still friends, because they somewhat were. You don't have to like all your friends lol. Plus Buffy still isn't convincing me that "oh because she really wasn't completely my bff like you Willow, I'm going to wait a few months til she kills someone, so I can kill her..." Buffy as you said new something like this would eventually happen... why didn't she try to stop it, she is the slayer after all, it is her job.
Selfless
- Thread starter GATEGOD
- Start date
she did try an stop it and that appears to be what you have a problem with.
No matter what spin you put on this Anya was a mass murderer. She exacted vengence on men for over 1000 years, she may not have been evil in the obvious way that Angelus and Willow were but she wasn't of the good either. She killed, she maimed and she caused disease. It wouldn't be hard to argue that she was infact worse, in terms of carnage caused, than any other enemy that Buffy faced.
Ok if you want Buffy to help Anya how do you propose she do that? really?
You do realize that Anya from pre season 3 was a completely different person from the Anya we know and love. Anya in season 7 when she is a 'demon' again is nothing like the old Anya nor does she even think she can be again. She is sad over the littlest things, and when she finally does kill the people who were making fun of a girl and laughing at her all 10 of them poking fun of her for no reason at all so she grants the girl her wish, she didn't kill those people, the girl did. If she never wished for it, it would have never happened. She even says after words "What have I done" she couldn't believe it, and was so sad and upset over it. Evil people don't get upset over things like that... do they? No.
After that Buffy goes to her in the next episode and saves her from a demon that is trying to kill her , obviously Buffy cares about her, even if you think they aren't friends. she even says "I don't want my friends out there alone right now." So clearly!!!! they are friends, once you accept that you can easily see why I think Buffy should have done something in that time before she granted that girls Wish.
Then why did you say this??
She didn't try and calm her down, tell her how sorry she was, comfort her, make her stop. She waited til after there were dead bodies to even see her... very good, Buffy should have been there for her, even if you think they weren't friends they still were together for 3 years and not doing anything for her in 3 months... isn't the characteristics of a good person which Buffy was at least should have been.
After that Buffy goes to her in the next episode and saves her from a demon that is trying to kill her , obviously Buffy cares about her, even if you think they aren't friends. she even says "I don't want my friends out there alone right now." So clearly!!!! they are friends, once you accept that you can easily see why I think Buffy should have done something in that time before she granted that girls Wish.
Are you serious? thats your argument for Anya not being responsible for those deaths? I'm sorry that is utterly ridiculous. If it had been Buffy or Dawn or Xander who that girl said that passing comment to would those frat boys have been murdered? No. Why? cuz they are not vengence demons. Anya was. ANYA killed them not the girl, no matter how you twist what happened their blood is on Anya's hands, no one elses'.
You are clearly a huge Anya fan so in what bizzaro reality do you think that Anya would have let any of the above happen? NOBODY was going to talk Anya out of becoming a demon again, least of all Buffy. I cannot stress this anymore, Anya CHOSE to become a demon again. She was in complete possession of her senses and rationality when she granted those wishes. It's not like Buffy could pull out a yellow crayon story to wow her with. Anya didn't need to be talked down from the proverbial ledge, she KNEW what she was doing the whole time.
I don't see what point your trying to make here? Buffy tried to stop Anya in Selfless after months of leaving her be an letting her deal. I didn't say that Buffy and Anya weren't friends I said they weren't as good as friends as you portrayed them as. Buffy knows what its like to have your heart broken so she didn't go after Anya until she was left with no other choice. Anya didn't want her help.
Anya: "What have I done" ...
Of course she didn't want there help, that doesn't mean she didn't need it. Would you want the help of people who sided with the person who broke your heart and shattered everything you were and wanted to be? I doubt it, but maybe you would. Idk, but Anya didn't. She felt that they left and abandoned her and she was right.
XANDER: I want to help you.
ANYA: Everyone is so considerate today. I should've slaughtered people weeks ago.
XANDER: I'm sorry. I'm sorry for everything I did to you. Everything I put you through.
ANYA: Thank you. All better. Thank goodness you got here in time.
Sarcastically she said every line, obviously she wanted them even if she wouldn't say it, to come help her, they didn't and she had no one to turn to except her only friend .. a killer demon who told her it was alright to do these things.
Buffy is just one , every single one of them is at fault.
Kemy
Annoyed Enby
"After" she'd ripped 12 peoples Hearts out. And I worked it out after the episode, at only *1* fatality every fortnight, Anya would have killed 30,000 people by the time she stopped in Season 3.
She still knew what she was doing when she granted that wish, what she wasn't prepared for was it it wold make her feel.
So what? none of the things she did were her fault becuase she didn't have good friends?
Ok so Buffy comes to Anya and gets the brush off like here with Xander. What does she do next? Anya didn't want her help, Buffy knows that. How does she force Anya to accept her help? How does Buffy save Anya from herself?
At 50 seconds on this YouTube - Best of Buffy - Final Season it shows how sorry she was, she never was evil, she never knew how much evil she had done, she never knew how much hate and saddness it could cause, as a vengeance demon she never cared, she loved it, but once she became human again everything changed, and she was never the same again. Xander changed her and changed her for the better. She became a better person and when she became a vengeance demon again she thought those sort of feelings would go away and they didn't. She was barely doing any real vengeance and when she did, she lost it and took it back, wanting to give up her own life for people she didn't know because she was so heartbroken, again evil people don't do that ^.^ Just because you love Buffy doesn't mean she along with the rest of them weren't at fault. She a little more so only because Xander tried to stop Buffy from Killing Anya, and Willow tried to get D'hofran to make Anya no longer a Vengeance demon. Buffy grabbed a sword lol. They were friends no mater what any one else thinks, and they should have tried to comfort her even if she pushed them away. If your friend goes crazy and starts hurting people you try and help them, not kill them ^.^ "Causing pain sounds really cool I know, but turns out it's really upsetting, didn't used to be." She didn't do anything terribly evil in 3 months was it? So why didn't they talk to her if she wasn't killing people? They talked to spike when he was a demon lol. They should have tried even if you think trying to help a friend that doesn't want your help is stupid.I think it's the right thing to do and why you are friends in the first place. Buffy just acted too completely non Buffy when she went after Anya saying she was thinking about for so long, if that even is true then she should have tried to help her!!!! haha I know you disagree and I can't seem to care because 3 months of waiting for someone to slip so you can kill them instead of 3 months of talking and helping someone who is pushing you away, sounds harder I know but it's what I really thought Buffy would have done. Willow too, Xander... Not so much because she'd probably through a plate at his head, she wouldn't do that to the others. Anyways, They should have, could have, and didn't help her when she needed it. So Each of them is responsible, Anya, Buffy, Xander, and Willow.
I don't for a second believe that you could claim she wasn't evil. In her day she was as bad as Vengence demons came, just like Angelus was to vampires. I get that you don't want your fav character to have been evil and just cuz we only saw glances of what she did doesn't change the fact that she was ruthless.
Again I disagree. Of all the Scoobies Anya was the one who was the most aware of what good and evil meant. She got that. I agree she became a better person through Xander, so one would imagine that she would be even less inclined to become a vengence demon again cuz now she understood humanity on a whole new level, including the hurt she was causing. She felt bad, rightly so,but that was just for the frat boys. What about all the others over a millenium that she hurt?
You said something about me thinking helping friends who don't want it is stupid. Quite the opposite actually, I will do everything in my power to help my friends but at the end of the day you can only help if people let you. Talking to someone can only go so far. Anya had to want to change herself, she had to reach rock bottom, and when her actions got Halfreck killed she did.
I clearly meant she wasn't evil when she turned back into a vengeance demon, it's clear she wasn't.
Again,"""' Xander changed her and changed her for the better. She became a better person and when she became a vengeance demon again she thought those sort of feelings would go away and they didn't. She was barely doing any real vengeance and when she did, she lost it and took it back, wanting to give up her own life for people she didn't know because she was so heartbroken, again evil people don't do that ^.^ Just because you love Buffy doesn't mean she along with the rest of them weren't at fault. She a little more so only because Xander tried to stop Buffy from Killing Anya, and Willow tried to get D'hofran to make Anya no longer a Vengeance demon. Buffy grabbed a sword lol. They were friends no mater what any one else thinks, and they should have tried to comfort her even if she pushed them away. If your friend goes crazy and starts hurting people you try and help them, not kill them ^.^ "Causing pain sounds really cool I know, but turns out it's really upsetting, didn't used to be." She didn't do anything terribly evil in 3 months was it? So why didn't they talk to her if she wasn't killing people? They talked to spike when he was a demon lol. They should have tried even if you think trying to help a friend that doesn't want your help is stupid.I think it's the right thing to do and why you are friends in the first place. Buffy just acted too completely non Buffy when she went after Anya saying she was thinking about for so long, if that even is true then she should have tried to help her!!!! haha I know you disagree and I can't seem to care because 3 months of waiting for someone to slip so you can kill them instead of 3 months of talking and helping someone who is pushing you away, sounds harder I know but it's what I really thought Buffy would have done. Willow too, Xander... Not so much because she'd probably through a plate at his head, she wouldn't do that to the others. Anyways, They should have, could have, and didn't help her when she needed it. So Each of them is responsible, Anya, Buffy, Xander, and Willow."""'
What i said sums up my feelings, they should have tried I know you think they should have waited for her to kill people until they tried to help her but I think they should have helped her before she hurt anyone.
You are wrong she wanted to change what she did and who she was after she did it, no one asked her what she wanted,they just assumed she liked what she did, and when they finally did, she told them she wanted to take it back and give up her own life, way before they killed Hallie
She cared about them just not as much as the ones she just hurt and killed. She was a good person when she did these things so she feels horrible, she doesn't feel horrible that she was doing her job when she was an evil bitch lol.
Again,"""' Xander changed her and changed her for the better. She became a better person and when she became a vengeance demon again she thought those sort of feelings would go away and they didn't. She was barely doing any real vengeance and when she did, she lost it and took it back, wanting to give up her own life for people she didn't know because she was so heartbroken, again evil people don't do that ^.^ Just because you love Buffy doesn't mean she along with the rest of them weren't at fault. She a little more so only because Xander tried to stop Buffy from Killing Anya, and Willow tried to get D'hofran to make Anya no longer a Vengeance demon. Buffy grabbed a sword lol. They were friends no mater what any one else thinks, and they should have tried to comfort her even if she pushed them away. If your friend goes crazy and starts hurting people you try and help them, not kill them ^.^ "Causing pain sounds really cool I know, but turns out it's really upsetting, didn't used to be." She didn't do anything terribly evil in 3 months was it? So why didn't they talk to her if she wasn't killing people? They talked to spike when he was a demon lol. They should have tried even if you think trying to help a friend that doesn't want your help is stupid.I think it's the right thing to do and why you are friends in the first place. Buffy just acted too completely non Buffy when she went after Anya saying she was thinking about for so long, if that even is true then she should have tried to help her!!!! haha I know you disagree and I can't seem to care because 3 months of waiting for someone to slip so you can kill them instead of 3 months of talking and helping someone who is pushing you away, sounds harder I know but it's what I really thought Buffy would have done. Willow too, Xander... Not so much because she'd probably through a plate at his head, she wouldn't do that to the others. Anyways, They should have, could have, and didn't help her when she needed it. So Each of them is responsible, Anya, Buffy, Xander, and Willow."""'
What i said sums up my feelings, they should have tried I know you think they should have waited for her to kill people until they tried to help her but I think they should have helped her before she hurt anyone.
You are wrong she wanted to change what she did and who she was after she did it, no one asked her what she wanted,they just assumed she liked what she did, and when they finally did, she told them she wanted to take it back and give up her own life, way before they killed Hallie
Ok so you think the scoobies should have been better friends, fine but I think Anya should have been better herself. Maybe it's because it's the way I look at things but only yourslef can be responsible for what you do. I will never argue that she was hurt but at the end of the day she did it all, not her friends. She was in control of her actions and ultimately she is the only one who can be held responsible. No one makes anyone do anything, not really. People can hurt you, ignore you, whatever, if it affects the choices you make it's becuase you allow it to. People have as much power over you as you give them and lets face it Buffy had no power over Anya. Ever. All I'm saying is that if Anya had really wanted to stop at any time before Selfless she could have, she didn't need anyone to do it for her, she had to stop herself.
Jade In The Sky
Away
lol Jeee I tried I really tried to read everything you two wrote but I'm going out now so I'm saying what I think. Maybe I have said it before and missed the post but oh well.
On the question how could have Anya reaching the bottom without anyone helping her and if it was worth it helping her:
1/ The script sucks. As some other times we have to concluded for ourselves b/c it's not cleared there and I do believe that the only reason to make it this way is b/c Joss likes it dark and twisty. BUT b/c of all the fans around the world of Joss I have point 2 🙂
2/ Maybe the reason they didn't help her is b/c:
2.1 All through s6 each of them was wrapped up in their own business, especially Buffy, so it's natural they go on this way some more months neglecting the problems until there are bad consequences
2.2 Because they subconsciously were glad they didn't have to deal with Anya with all their problems, they needed some major time-off and decided to neglect AGAIN the signs for serious trouble in the air
2.3 Because even though they liked Anya they thought going away from her and leaving her do what she wants was the best thing they could do.
You decide which point suits you. I think it's a twisted combination of the three. When you have had too much bad days and you need some time off, you neglect every saurce of negative energy which would be Anya and relieve yourself with the sentence: I'm sure she'll be alright. She's a tough girl.
And the saddest truth? Yeah, they didn't care enough. Who's fault is that? Noone's, it's an incompatibility of characters problem. And Buffy isn't supposed to be Superman and be a therapist though everyone seems to expect her to be one. So don't point the finger at her so much. Besides, she's always been a bit wrapped up in herself. Willow's ( and Xand maybe ) the most observing and helping by emotional support one.
On the question how could have Anya reaching the bottom without anyone helping her and if it was worth it helping her:
1/ The script sucks. As some other times we have to concluded for ourselves b/c it's not cleared there and I do believe that the only reason to make it this way is b/c Joss likes it dark and twisty. BUT b/c of all the fans around the world of Joss I have point 2 🙂
2/ Maybe the reason they didn't help her is b/c:
2.1 All through s6 each of them was wrapped up in their own business, especially Buffy, so it's natural they go on this way some more months neglecting the problems until there are bad consequences
2.2 Because they subconsciously were glad they didn't have to deal with Anya with all their problems, they needed some major time-off and decided to neglect AGAIN the signs for serious trouble in the air
2.3 Because even though they liked Anya they thought going away from her and leaving her do what she wants was the best thing they could do.
You decide which point suits you. I think it's a twisted combination of the three. When you have had too much bad days and you need some time off, you neglect every saurce of negative energy which would be Anya and relieve yourself with the sentence: I'm sure she'll be alright. She's a tough girl.
And the saddest truth? Yeah, they didn't care enough. Who's fault is that? Noone's, it's an incompatibility of characters problem. And Buffy isn't supposed to be Superman and be a therapist though everyone seems to expect her to be one. So don't point the finger at her so much. Besides, she's always been a bit wrapped up in herself. Willow's ( and Xand maybe ) the most observing and helping by emotional support one.
white avenger
white avenger
As has been pointed out, Anya never really liked the Scoobies, and was treated for the most part as an outsider, never allowed to forget that she had been a rather malolent creature for a long tome, and was responsible for countless relatively innocent lives. Everyone except Xander only tolerated her, accepting her help and assistance without ever thanking her for it. The only reason she ever even hung around with the others was her feelings for Xander. For his sake, she tolerated them, the same as they tolerated her.
Kinda reminds me of the Buffy/Spike relationship, right down to the fact that two once powerful demons could no longer harm humans, one because of a chip, the other from being stripped of her powers by her "pimp," D'Hoffran. Except, of course, that Buffy was never as openly hostile to Anya as Xander was of Spike.
Kinda reminds me of the Buffy/Spike relationship, right down to the fact that two once powerful demons could no longer harm humans, one because of a chip, the other from being stripped of her powers by her "pimp," D'Hoffran. Except, of course, that Buffy was never as openly hostile to Anya as Xander was of Spike.
Kean
I made all these points too only they were much more long winded!...look at us agreeing on things! are you proud? you should be!
white avenger
white avenger
Miss K, be warned: slowly, quietly, bit by tiny bit, I am craftily going to completely turn your way of thinking around until you are as avid a Spuffy fanatic as I am. Then, while you're still reeling from that, I'm gonna introduce you to the wonderful world of John Wayne. Your time as a Bangel is swiftly drawing to a conclusion. Know this and be afraid!!!
Kean
Of course there is. Have you ever heard of the Yeat's Poem 'The Lake Isle of Innisfree'? It's an absolutely beautiful place in Lough swilly Co. Sligo. I'm fairly sure there are 'The Quiet Man' tours of the place
Hold on a minute, lets not go COMPLETELY crazy! There is no force on this planet, not even you!, that could make me turn my back on Bangel. It will never happen. I've laid down my roots and I ain't moving for no one!!
And as far as The Duke goes, I assure you sir no introdution is necessary.The Quiet Man is one of my most loved films. It is shown here EVERY St.Patrick's Day.
white avenger
...And there's another thing we agree on! The Quiet Man is one of my all time favorite movies. It's why I want to visit Ireland someday (PLEASE tell me that there realli is an Innishfree (or however it's spelled)
white avenger
white avenger
Edmund Blackadder
Scooby
This was a very interesting topic to read but please, White and Keonite, dn't turn this into another off topic Spike/Buffy vs Angel/Buffy thread. It's actually getting quite boring and ridiculous.
white avenger
Sorry about that. I'll quit if Miss K will...