Sept. 19-25 Discussion - led by HisMrs

[Buffy Summers]

HisMrs you can post your topic here.

🙂

 

[BuffyElevated]

Awesome, thank you!! 😀

Topic: In the beginning of "BtVS", do you think Joyce was a good mother?

Episodes to Review: "Welcome to the Hellmouth/The Harvest", "The Witch", "Prophecy Girl"

Discussion begins September 19th!! See you then! 🙂

 

[BuffyElevated]

So let's get this show on the road folks! 🙂 Looking at Joyce's behavior in the early seasons of BtVS, particularly, Season 1, do you think Joyce was a good parent or a bad one?
Thoughts, please!

 

[Bungle Jerry]

I think we're supposed to see Joyce as 'well-meaning but very wary given Buffy's actions in L.A.' I think that's meant to explain her overbearing nature. But "The Witch" pushes it to the extreme - in an episode about bad mothering, a little contrast between her and Catherine Madison would have been nice. A parent wary about her child's behaviour would pay attention to her, not be as thoughtless as she is when she and Buffy are talking about cheerleading tryouts.

Joyce became a really great character - an all-too-human mother who meant well but often didn't quite pull off June Cleaver. At this early stage, though, I'm not sure she passes the 'good mother' test.

 

[Taake]

I think Joyce was a very human mother.
She certainly had her flaws and made her mistakes but really I think she was a good mother. She was supportive of Buffy even though their wills clashed sometimes and wanted what was best for her in a very selfless way.

Sure she was a bit overbearing perhaps in the pilot but c'mon - if my kid had burned down a gym I think I would have been as well...

Now in "The Witch" she is obviously a bit too pre-occupied but for me that is part of the charm of Joyce - she's neither Stepford nor horrible - sometimes she makes mistakes too which I think is nice.

 

[TaylorSwift]

Ok so..I'm gonna start saying that I'll never put in doubt how much Joyce loved Buffy and vice-versa. Aside from that...I don't think Joyce was a supportive mother during the early seasons and especially in the episodes you recommended. I know Joyce went through a lot like the divorce, Buffy getting kicked out and had to transfer to Sunnydale, start a new life etc. but your daughter is 16 years old..that's gonna be even tougher on her and you say things like: "Try not to get kicked out" or that they had to move to find a school that will accept her. Now, I know she was worried and trying to prevent the same things to happen twice but support and understanding in adolescents years are more important that anything else. I like the speech Joyce makes in Welcome to the hellmouth, she lets her go to the Bronze and tells her that they can start a new life and make it work. In The Harvest it's a whole other story: she realizes Buffy may be follow the same path as the one in LA and of course she can't allow her to go. I understand and I agree with Joyce (if I didn't know the truth) but I would've tried to talk to my daughter more about skipping classes, why she did it, what was wrong. I know Buffy couldn't talk about any of that stuff but Joyce could've asked. It's like she has no idea what's going on in Buffy's life simply because she prefers not to know. That's clear in The Witch when Joyce shows no faith in Buffy's actions like she's expecting the worst and therefore she didn't want to deal with it..she's gonna decide to demand an explanation in season 2 but where was she those two years? I remember Buffy saying something about washing her clothes with blood stains when she reveals she's the Slayer (and I also imagine seeing bruises) but preferred to close an eye and go on without knowing. Then in season 3 she's gonna talk to Angel about her daughter's future..now I know she was ultimately right BUT this is the time she decides to step in, after all those years she held back? That doesn't seem fair to me. Oh well, my conclusion is this: as a mother I would've tried to talk and get to know my daughter more..I wouldn't have glossed over things just because they might be uncomfortable or hard to deal with or 'cause the answers might frighten me. I can imagine it must be extremely difficult to be a parent but that's what I think of Joyce in those early years.

 

[msfantastico87]

gee I almost forgot this started today lol

Let's see, do I think she was a good parent?

It's hard for me to explain. I don't think any parent should have to go by a book to raise their children. She does a lot of"But the book says this, and I should learn to say no." In my opinion, she should at least sit down with Buffy and actually talk. I remember when Buffy tried out for cheer leading and was telling Joyce about it and Joyce wasn't even paying attention to her.


Buffy wasn't necessarily a problem child, but to Joyce's eyes, she kind of was, with burning down the gym and getting kicked out of school. I think that if Joyce knew the real reason behind Buffy's action this early in the game, she would have been more accepting of the things Buffy does.

I know Joyce went through a lot like the divorce, Buffy getting kicked out and had to transfer to Sunnydale, start a new life etc. but your daughter is 16 years old..that's gonna be even tougher on her and you say things like: "Try not to get kicked out" or that they had to move to find a school that will accept her.

Things like this that Joyce does or says makes Buffy seek support elsewhere, which is why she was so sad when the science teacher(forgot his name) died. He told her that he believed in her and that she should prove everyone wrong.

 

[Bungle Jerry]

Well Joyce had also just broken up with her husband. So it was a lot of stress for someone to be going through.

 

[xfivebyfive]

I think Joyce was a good mother, she loved Buffy and she really tried to be a good mother. She was a little oblivious at times, and didn't always say the right thing. But what mother does? Buffy wasn't a problem child from our view but to Joyce she was. She didn't know what her daughter was doing at that point she just knew that she was getting into trouble all the time.

Plus she had just gone through a divorce which had to be hard on her but we never see her bring that up to Buffy or take it out on Buffy. She deals with her stuff on her own, maybe distracts her a bit, but she tries.

 

[BuffyElevated]

Hmmm, good answers, you guys! 🙂
Can you name instances that demonstrate your point in particular throughout the early seasons?

 

[TaylorSwift]

My answer before was very long so I'll try to make it quick this time...I'm just gonna put lines from the episodes that inspired me to write what's above.

"Joyce: Oh, not too nurturing. I know, you're sixteen, I've read all
about the dangers of over-nurturing" . As msfantastico87 said, Joyce always says she reads about parenting but does she ever actually talk to Buffy, does she ever sits down, takes at least 10 minutes to figure out what's going on in her daughter's life? Basically no and that's what bothers me...it's difficult but you need to talk to her, I know she tried but not that hard for me.

Joyce: It's hard. New town and everything... It is for me, too. I'm
trying to make it work. Part of a discussion I enjoyed and makes me appreciate Joyce..I like that even if she has her own life to figure it out she tries to make things better for Buffy.

"Joyce: The tapes all say I should get used to saying it. No."
I agree with Joyce about grounding Buffy (if I knew as much as she knew) because she started to think Buffy was going to get herself into trouble and that I like but she doesn't stay in Buffy's room to talk to her, to ask her why is so important for her to go and why she skipped classes? ( I know Buffy gave her the errands answer but I'd keep asking anyway).

"Buffy: I'm not in trouble. Joyce: No, not yet" If this was a one-time episode, I'd skip it but there's another scene in WTTH where Joyce says "try not to get kicked out". Normally, parents often say things out of line but in this situation, all Buffy needs is a little faith in her..which comes only later from Joyce. Maybe I'm taking this too seriously but adolescents take those comment just as seriously and can damage one self-esteem. That's not in every kid but I've seen it in a lot of cases.
I've said above Joyce realizes something is going on in Buffy's life but she prefers not to ask and let it go, not deal with it..I can prove my case reporting a line Buffy said in Becoming Pt.2 that always touches me: "Open your eyes, Mom. What do you think has been going on for the past two years? The fights, the weird occurrences. How many times have you washed blood out of my clothing, and you still haven't figured it out?" It's Buffy's sadness and frustration about her mother "closing en eye" about what was going on because it would be too difficult to talk about and deal. I don't wanna trash Joyce, let that be clear...I think, overall, she's a good mom who tried her best and made mistakes as all humans and mothers do but in these early seasons she slipped a little. I liked her attitude much better once she found out Buffy was the Slayer and everything was explained. Ok..I guess I didn't make it quick...sorry guys. 🙂

 

[caitaintdead]

I just don't see what is wrong with going 'by the book' when your child has just been thrown out of a school for burning down the gym. Joyce did not know that vampires were real, and that Buffy was actually saving everyone by burning the gym down. I have to say, if I had a child and she burned down a school gym I would think she was a delinquent. Not a slayer.

I think Joyce was a great mum considering the circumstances. She loved her daughter, looked after her well, and worked hard so that Buffy could live in a nice house with everything she could want or need.

Buffy had it pretty easy when you look at her behaviour in the past. When most children are caught doing things like that it either means that their parents don't care, or they get sent away to a strict boarding school, or thrown into an asylum. I know Joyce and Hank sent her to an asylum, but soon let her come home, and let Buffy live a normal life.

Joyce trusted Buffy as well. Sure, she occasionally questioned her, but for a 16 year old girl, she was given a lot of freedom. I don't know how many mums would let their daughter go out to an underage nightclub frequently, or stay the night at friends houses at the last minute on school nights.

 

[zobothehobo]

I posted another thread a while back... about Joyce and her parenting from the book approach. I get that books and tapes can be useful tools for parents and that parenting is the hardest job in the world because no one knows how to do it right... I also get Joyce was going through a lot and was worried about her daughter. But as I said in that thread, the books and tapes should give you ways to think about parenting rather than tell you what to do. That's just lazy.

I agree with 100% of the stuff TaylorSwift has said. And as someone who's been on Buffy's end of the "No, not yet" comment... that can do WAY more damage than parents realize. I've never had the best track record with grades and doing my homework... I always start the year/semester just fine... but then I get lazy. Part of it is my parents really don't believe me when I say I'm doing well... even if I have proof. They're always like "you're doing fine now... but in a couple months, you'll be failing." It's like my good work doesn't matter because they see me as a failure. That makes me think of myself as a failure and I don't do my work. It's like why bother if you don't get anything out of it? It takes WAY more work to be a good student than to sit on your butt all day. Joyce saying "no, not yet" is saying "everything you do doesn't matter. All the trouble you don't get into doesn't matter. You did before which means you will now. You messed up so bad before that I'll never believe you won't mess up again." That's an AWFUL thing to say to your child. Every time I see that part, I just want to scream.

 

[caitaintdead]

^ That is some teen angst right there!

God, I don't miss being a teenager and hating on parents! I did not at all like my parents parenting when I was a teenager, and they were definitely not by the book in any regard! I hated it, and resented their parenting. Now that I'm older though, and have been living out of home for so long, I realise how great they were. The hard work that they both did to look after me, themselves, the house, the pets. It was tireless and I was thankless.

I think the similar thing happened in Buffy, it was only when Joyce was gone that Buffy truly realised just how much of a superwoman her mum was.

 

[zobothehobo]

Let me clarify... I don't think my parents have been bad parents. They have been there for me for the most part and have really helped me to grow into the fantastic person I am today. However, no parent is perfect. For the most part, the mistakes my parents made weren't that awful and/or harmful to my growth and development as a functioning member of society. However, there were a few that have really hurt over the years. I have kind of been blamed for all the bad stuff that happens in my family and my parents kind of assume I'm going to fail at 90-100% of the things I do. That's led to some self esteem issues I wish I didn't have. Joyce didn't make all of the mistakes my parents made and she made some my parents did not.... but that's to be expected, every parent parents differently. The mistake of believing your child is going to disappoint you before they actually do hits close to home with me.

 

[msfantastico87]

I posted another thread a while back... about Joyce and her parenting from the book approach. I get that books and tapes can be useful tools for parents and that parenting is the hardest job in the world because no one knows how to do it right... I also get Joyce was going through a lot and was worried about her daughter. But as I said in that thread, the books and tapes should give you ways to think about parenting rather than tell you what to do. That's just lazy.

I totally agree with you here Zobo. They are meant as guides, and just that. Everyone has a different approach to parenting. If I were to ever have kids, I would want to raise them my way, even if I suck at it, than to have someone tell me what to do. Kinda like, ok this didn't work, let me try this kind of deal know what a mean?

I'm not saying I hate Joyce, far from it. She was my one of my favorite characters from the show. And I do understand that both she and Buffy had been going through a lot with the divorce and everything. I just think that after being overwhelmed with so many problems, she kind of submerged herself into her work and never made time for Buffy. Buffy never really required much attention, but when she did, Joyce was never there.

I think Joyce grows a lot more as the show progresses because she learns to trust Buffy's judgement. Seeing as she meets and gets to know Buffy's friends, she believes her daughter is in good hands and surrounded by a better influence than before. Am I making any sense?

 

[kristin1105]

Joyce seemed to be trying her best. Although she may have been tough on Buffy it makes sense that she would act this way after Buffy's checkered past. I don't want to say she was a bad parent but she was making some bad parenting decisions. Which can be somewhat excused because of the special situation they were in.

Random thoughts on the subject: I found the whole slayer talk with Joyce and Buffy pretty funny, as serious as it was, because it was very similar to the whole "coming out" talk many gay men and women have with their parents. It was the coming out story that was never told with Willow or Tara.
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[zobothehobo]

Random thoughts on the subject: I found the whole slayer talk with Joyce and Buffy pretty funny, as serious as it was, because it was very similar to the whole "coming out" talk many gay men and women have with their parents. It was the coming out story that was never told with Willow or Tara.
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As someone who's had that coming out talk with their parents, the way Joyce handled it pissed me off. On a different note about that conversation, Joyce said "If you leave here, don't even think about coming back." That's worse than "no, not yet." I don't even have words to describe how much I hate that line and I hate the fact Joyce said it.

 

[Bungle Jerry]

As someone who's had that coming out talk with their parents, the way Joyce handled it pissed me off. On a different note about that conversation, Joyce said "If you leave here, don't even think about coming back." That's worse than "no, not yet." I don't even have words to describe how much I hate that line and I hate the fact Joyce said it.

I totally agree. That's the end of S2 and outside the scope of the initial question, but I think Joyce is intolerable in "Becoming" and "Dead Man's Party". It's an argument that's been had before here, but my 2c is that no amount of stress or shock can ever excuse a mother saying that to her child.

On another topic though, I love that they decided to alter Joyce's character by having her learn Buffy was a slayer. As far as character evolution goes it may pale next to the season's big "Angel goes evil" plotline but it's really just as substantial. Years and years of clueless-Joyce reacting wrongly to Buffy because she doesn't know who she is would have gotten old.

 

[kristin1105]

As someone who's had that coming out talk with their parents, the way Joyce handled it pissed me off. On a different note about that conversation, Joyce said "If you leave here, don't even think about coming back." That's worse than "no, not yet." I don't even have words to describe how much I hate that line and I hate the fact Joyce said it.

I had that talk too. It was very harsh how she handled it, she should have been more understanding. My mom was the same way but i didnt go anywhere because i had no where to go. Im still not sure how Buffy at 16 was able to sustain herself.
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