Sept. 19-25 Discussion - led by HisMrs

[Bungle Jerry]

I had that talk too. It was very harsh how she handled it, she should have been more understanding. My mom was the same way but i didnt go anywhere because i had no where to go. Im still not sure how Buffy at 16 was able to sustain herself.
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Well by working in a café. Whether that's realistic is a different question. But certainly cafés would hire 16 year olds, and Buffy is not lacking in the 'independence' department.

 

[Taake]

As someone who's had that coming out talk with their parents, the way Joyce handled it pissed me off. On a different note about that conversation, Joyce said "If you leave here, don't even think about coming back." That's worse than "no, not yet." I don't even have words to describe how much I hate that line and I hate the fact Joyce said it.

I cut Joyce slack there because this huge thing is dumped on her after she's just been thinking her daughter is a murder suspect and then showing up with a guy who looks like Spike (and who she's hit over the head with an axe) and then 'comes out' . It's a bit much to handle in one night.

So she got upset, she said something she shouldn't have (partly because who would have taken the 'I need to go save the world' line seriously?) but I think it shows on her that she regretted it the second she had said it. She just wanted Buffy to make time for her, wanted desperately to be able to control the situation again. People make mistakes.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I totally agree with you here Zobo. They are meant as guides, and just that. Everyone has a different approach to parenting. If I were to ever have kids, I would want to raise them my way, even if I suck at it, than to have someone tell me what to do. Kinda like, ok this didn't work, let me try this kind of deal know what a mean?

I'm not saying I hate Joyce, far from it. She was my one of my favorite characters from the show. And I do understand that both she and Buffy had been going through a lot with the divorce and everything. I just think that after being overwhelmed with so many problems, she kind of submerged herself into her work and never made time for Buffy. Buffy never really required much attention, but when she did, Joyce was never there.

I think Joyce grows a lot more as the show progresses because she learns to trust Buffy's judgement. Seeing as she meets and gets to know Buffy's friends, she believes her daughter is in good hands and surrounded by a better influence than before. Am I making any sense?

You pretty much sum up my entire thoughts.
There are points when I think Joyce is a horrible parent. Even though her "by the book" parenting style is understandable (I know a lot of people who read parenting books for tips on how to be a better parent, and this would be a natural reaction for someone to think they're a bad parent because their kid got into trouble), but there were times when she was way too oblivious about Buffy's wants and needs. For instance, in "The Witch" when she fails to show any interest in something Buffy wants to do, and instead keeps pushing what SHE wants her to do. And in "Prophecy Girl" when it's obvious that Buffy is deeply upset and needs her mom, but Joyce writes it off as Buffy being silly and insists that she cannot take time off work to go away with her.
In the beginning of the show, I thought "Wow, what a crappy Mom." but as time went on, Joyce was developed more and the writers made her much more loveable.

 

[caitaintdead]

I have been told that line, I had just turned 18 years old and so out I walked. I had to find myself somewhere to say, and a job to sustain myself. Sure it's a huge difference between being 16 and having to go through all that, but I think it's safe to say that I understand what Joyce had said to Buffy and how horrible it would have felt for Buffy to feel like she was not being accepted for who she was.

The point is that people seem to be disregarding Joyce's feelings as a human being as well. Joyce did NOT really want to never see her daughter again. She wanted her daughter to make some time to sit down and discuss what was going on. She wanted them to click like a mother and daughter should. Joyce did not understand what was going on, and lashed out.

Joyce saying something she did not mean does not make her a bad mother. Aside from in The Brady Bunch I think you'll have difficulty finding any mother that hasn't had a fight with her daughter that has resulted in harsh words being said.

Joyce may not be a perfect mother. The mother that you wish you had at the moment. But she was a good mother.

Perhaps at the beginning of this discussion we should have all decided what the definition of 'good mother' is. I see 'good' as satisfactory quality. I can't think of one example we have been given that she is a bad mother. She is definitely not an unsatisfactory mother. Therefore, she must be a good mother.

 

[msfantastico87]

Joyce may not be a perfect mother. The mother that you wish you had at the moment. But she was a good mother.

Perhaps at the beginning of this discussion we should have all decided what the definition of 'good mother' is. I see 'good' as satisfactory quality. I can't think of one example we have been given that she is a bad mother. She is definitely not an unsatisfactory mother. Therefore, she must be a good mother.

I never thought about it like that. It makes sense. I don't think anyone really hated Joyce as a mother. She is definitely well-liked and is on a lot of lists of favorite characters.

 

[Taake]

Joyce saying something she did not mean does not make her a bad mother. Aside from in The Brady Bunch I think you'll have difficulty finding any mother that hasn't had a fight with her daughter that has resulted in harsh words being said.

Joyce may not be a perfect mother. The mother that you wish you had at the moment. But she was a good mother.

Perhaps at the beginning of this discussion we should have all decided what the definition of 'good mother' is. I see 'good' as satisfactory quality. I can't think of one example we have been given that she is a bad mother. She is definitely not an unsatisfactory mother. Therefore, she must be a good mother.

Completely agree with your post.

 

[zobothehobo]

I feel like a "good" mother is supportive no matter what and I don't think Joyce was at the beginning... as time went on, yes, she became more supportive... but at the beginning, no. However, saying that and using that definition makes my own mother not a "good" mother and I think my mother was and is a great mother despite her unsupportive tendencies.

 

[caitaintdead]

I feel like a "good" mother is supportive no matter what and I don't think Joyce was at the beginning... as time went on, yes, she became more supportive... but at the beginning, no. However, saying that and using that definition makes my own mother not a "good" mother and I think my mother was and is a great mother despite her unsupportive tendencies.

See, I don't think a mother should be supportive no matter what. Mothers should encourage their children to do the best they possibly can with their lives, and teach them how to make the right decisions to be happy. If a mother can see that a choice a child is making is going to make them unhappy then they should not be supportive of the decision.

Of course, what that brings into the picture is a rather murky grey ground where the mother has to decide what will or will not make their child happy. (Just to be clear, I'm leaving out the gay/lesbian coming out comparison here, because it is NEVER okay to encourage your child to not be who they really are).

Joyce decides that being a slayer will be a hard life for Buffy and wants Buffy to be happy. She is correct in this decision because being a slayer is a horrible life for Buffy to lead. Joyce does not know that Buffy really doesn't have a choice in this decision though. As soon as Joyce realises this, she is supportive.

 

[TaylorSwift]

For me, Joyce was a good mom, as I said in my previous posts...just not very supportive in the earlier seasons and that affects Buffy more than other things. But I agree with caitaintdead ...mom and daughter's big fights usually come out in harsh words so that really doesn't count for me..in Becoming she was completely shocked and confused, anything can be said (even if it's not fair).

 

[msfantastico87]

See, I don't think a mother should be supportive no matter what. Mothers should encourage their children to do the best they possibly can with their lives, and teach them how to make the right decisions to be happy. If a mother can see that a choice a child is making is going to make them unhappy then they should not be supportive of the decision.

I agree. If my parents supported me with anything I wanted to do in life, I would be completely covered in tattoos, unable to find a job, not have a college degree, and not be able to work with the sea animals I love so dearly. I am glad my mother MADE me go to college even though I really didn't want to lol.

 

[kristin1105]

Well by working in a café. Whether that's realistic is a different question. But certainly cafés would hire 16 year olds, and Buffy is not lacking in the 'independence' department.

When I was 16 I had a job and theres a limited amount of time your allowed to work legally. Working part time at minimum wage is not enough to make a living
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[BuffyElevated]

We've had a lot of interesting arguments here. Of course everyone has their own style of parenting, and everyone was raised differently so I think that adds a nice element to our discussion. 🙂 I think we all agree, though, that a lot of Joyce's "faults" were things that eventually grew out of the character. I still believe in the earlier seasons Joyce was not a great mom, just because she was so preoccupied all the time and never there for Buffy when she really, really needed her to be. (And I admit my feelings on this are partly personal because my mother was not around much in my teen years either.) But I think we all agree that Joyce became a much better parent and much more likeable as the series went on.