Seven Seasons Of Buffy With Angel

white avenger

white avenger
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Assume that Angel had never left Sunnydale after Season 3, but, instead, had stayed throughout the show's entire run. How would that have changed the final 4 seasons? Would Riley and Spike still been there? Dawn? Would Angel have died in the series finale? (And, please, folks, Bangels especially, don't just say "Buffy and Angel would live happily ever after." We all know that Joss would never allow that to happen anyhow)
 
U
ubi4soft
Good luck with this one..
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Oh man...this is such a big question, and I don't have nearly enough time before class to answer! I'll be back...
Assume that Angel had never left Sunnydale after Season 3, but, instead, had stayed throughout the show's entire run. How would that have changed the final 4 seasons? Would Riley and Spike still been there? Dawn? Would Angel have died in the series finale? (And, please, folks, Bangels especially, don't just say "Buffy and Angel would live happily ever after." We all know that Joss would never allow that to happen anyhow)

Hmm, good question WA. I've actually never really thought about this very much, to be honest. And, please, I might only be able to speak myself here, but I don't think many people, Bangel or no, would expect the 'happily ever after' to happen. We've all watched the show and we are all fully aware of Joss' writing style. It's not just the Spuffies, y'know? 😉

The reason I've never really thought about this is that I think Angel leaving was absolutely the right and most appropriate thing to do. I think the show could have got 'stale', for want of a better word, if Angel had have stayed.

BUT, I think had he not left at the end of season three, I don't think he would have stayed til the end in the capacity of a full character. In season four though, I wouldn't have been surprised if Angel would have been the one captured by the Initiative. Maybe he wouldn't have been chipped and the storyline might not have followed exactly how did it with Spike, it wouldn't have been as 'comical' (again, for want of a better word).

I think all the characters you mentioned would have still had a place in the show but obviously not necessarily exactly as we saw them. I think Riley would have still been who he was with regards to the Initiative but his relationship with Buffy wouldn't have been the same. Spike would have still appeared but again, he wouldn't have been the same. He certainly wouldn't have become a sub-Scooby!

And with Dawn, yup, I still think she could have been pretty much the same sort of character she was without Angel there. And I think the events of 'The Gift' would have still played out the way they did.

I think Angel being killed in the finale would have been highly possible and likely.

But, like I said, I don't think he would have stayed until the end. I think he always would have left at some point, because it was the right thing for Buffy. And I'm glad he left when he did.
 
Yeah I think you expect to much, because if Angel stayed till the season 7 they would live happily ever after. Joss said himself, he doesn't belive in happy endings, but he know that their love is eternal. Well if he stayed I think Riley and Spike would never happen, they would be there but not in the way they had in the world where Angel left. Just like Spuffy would never happen if Riley stayed. It is clear to us that Buffy and Angel can't be next to each other and just be friends. They are friends, very good friends, but in the end of the day, they are so much more then that. I think Dawn would happen, and plot would be the same, just we would have new Bangel storylines, break ups and much much more. I don't think he would die. Spike died in Buffy, and then he got back in Angel. Joss said that he is not going to destroy main 'ships. He only killed Anya, because Emma wanted no future for her character.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Wow, another very pretty little banner. Do you make these yourself?
If Angel had stayed until the end i believe that in the final episode Joss would have given us some hope for us BANGELERS!i am not saying happy ending but some good hope!

I don't think Spike would ever happen if Angel stayed with Buffy...i mean NEVER!
I don't know about Riley...if Angel had stayed but not as Buffy's boyfriend Buffy would probably do sth normal in her life...like dating a human!but it wouldn't have worked...

Dawn would still happen

Although it hurts to say it...Angel leaving Sunnydale was more interesting...as SMG had said in an interview...the show did not use the romance all the time to gain popularity like other shows did...and besides ATS turned out to be really,really GOOD stuff!
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
You don't think the cookie dough speech was intended to give Bangels hope?
No Joan, my friend makes them for me. I really don't know how, I'm good with backgrounds only. 😀

And I must agree with Flannen, when Angel left in season 3, that was the best move. I was heartbroken, and I must say everytime I see that episode I cry so much, but just like Buffy, I knew that was the right thing to do. Part of mi wish he never left, well part of mi wish that the show ended on the begining of The Prom, when she was in his arms. But part of me thinks that if he stayed, they would be just one ordinary couple, like in all the other tv shows. Now they are special, and powerful, and every crossover we had with them was more than words can say.
And Eleftheria I think Joss gave us hope in the last episode. A whole bunch of hope 😀
 
PrincessBuffy i can't wait to see the final episode...i currently watch season 3...but i have read the dialogue and i think Buffy only gave hope to Angel about the future...well i wanted more,but we should be glad Joss chose to do this
 
Oh I want more to, but Joss doesn't belive in happy endings. If he gave us happy ending, that would meant that show is over. And it's not. Well I hope. Maybe they will do something with it that makes us belive again 😀
 
Whew. Well...I'd agree with Flannen that it was absolutely the right thing to do for Angel to have left when he did. I can't see where he would have "fit" in. He couldn't be the comic relief (Spike nailed that) he couldn't really be a Scooby, he was too much of a loner....I can't imagine how things would have played out if Angel had stayed all through the series, up unto the end.

But, I'll give it a shot:

For one thing, as Flannen said, if Angel and Buffy had stayed together throughout the entire run - well, that would have never happened in the Jossverse, period. That would have been mighty boring as well, in my opinion. And if Buffy and him never did get back together after Season 3..the only other reason for him to have been there was then, as an ally or as another Scooby. Or a Big bad. That's all and fine, but Angel was quite a flat character on BtVs, and in order to keep him on they would have had to develop him much more fully as they did in AtS. I could definitely see the show getting 'stale' as Flannen mentioned, with Angel always lurking around and brooding in his characteristic fashion. Contrary to what others think or want, Angel's main purpose on BtVS was to be Buffy's major love interest. Without that, what was he? On AtS, he was given a purpose, he was fleshed out. I'd hate to see him wandering around Sunnydale, pining over Buffy, with no real purpose - like Spike - well in general - but mostly in the beginning of Season 5 of AtS.

So, say that Angel was a planned regular for the entire run. Spike would have gotten staked back in "Halloween", like was originally planned. Sad thought to have lost such a great character. But, if Angel had stayed on, and taken on the role that Spike did, how would the chipped by the Initiative storyline work out? Not too well, I'd imagine. The whole point of the chip was to keep the vampire from killing humans. Angel had a soul, and didn't kill people anyway. The main comic thing with the whole situation was how distraught Spike was at not being able to kill things anymore. If Angel got chipped, why would he even care? (Except for the fact that the Initiative could track and kill him, of course). The whole storyline would fall flat.

If Angel had stayed on, as Flannen said, it would have been interesting to see him take Spike's place in closing the Hellmouth and saving the world. BUT, I think it would have been far more interesting if, say around Season 5, he went evil again and turned back into Angelus and they weren't able to restore his soul. It would have been interesting to see the effects of Angel being "gone" forever with no hope for restoration of his former self.

In the 'verse, everything effects everything. Always. I'm sure there's a billion things that could have gone differently had Angel had stayed, sans Spike not being around and the whole chipped storyline falling flat.

Regardless, it disturbs me to think where Spike would have fit in with Angel around so much. Certainly there would have been no place for him. Angel and Spike in the same room together never works out. As long as Angel was near Buffy, he'd only cause her pain - since they couldn't be together. Having Angel leave allowed Buffy to get over him, which of course, allowed her to fall for Spike.
 
Joan, your post made my cried. Maybe because you are right in one hand, or because of the things that are happening in my life. But, I have to say something. Me and my big mouth 😀 Over the years I'm listening how Angel only hurt Buffy. How he caused her pain. You know, I always try to be positive. When people talked about them, I was getting and impresion that all they see on screen is pain. I didn't. I saw something beautiful, I can't describe with words how beautiful it was. How them made me feel and belive in love. I own them that. That's because I'm on the Bangel team. I've learned so much from them. If I felt that way about Spuffy, maybe I would be a Spuffy fan. Who knows? But moment of true happines. That was awesome. Just one moment. Just one girl. Only a second. That was something that will stay with me forever.
 
E
Eleftheria
[No message]
Joan, your post made my cried. Maybe because you are right in one hand, or because of the things that are happening in my life. But, I have to say something. Me and my big mouth 😀 Over the years I'm listening how Angel only hurt Buffy. How he caused her pain. You know, I always try to be positive. When people talked about them, I was getting and impresion that all they see on screen is pain. I didn't. I saw something beautiful, I can't describe with words how beautiful it was. How them made me feel and belive in love. I own them that. That's because I'm on the Bangel team. I've learned so much from them. If I felt that way about Spuffy, maybe I would be a Spuffy fan. Who knows? But moment of true happines. That was awesome. Just one moment. Just one girl. Only a second. That was something that will stay with me forever.

Princess Buffy, I have to say, this is a beautiful post. 🙂

Just as you see something special and beautiful with Bangel, I see that with Spuffy. Different things resonate with people for different reasons. That's what's so great about Buffy!

I'm sorry if I made you sad! That wasn't my intention.
 
Hmmm....this is a good question. Well, here is how I think it should go. At the end of Season 3, Angel and Buffy seperate after Angel realizes he isn't the right guy for her and that she deserves somebody that can give her everything a Vampire can't, so he becomes seperated from the group, but not so much as to leave town as he still feels very protective of Buffy.

At the beginning of Season Four, Buffy, Willow and Oz attend their first year at UC Sunnydale, aswell as Xander trying to find work and Giles trying to find his purpose in life after the destruction of Sunnydale High (Also, Dawn has not been introduced as of yet). Angel, however, remains hidden and continues to brood (much like he did in 'Angel'), only to appear in times of great danger (which was pretty a lot). With all his free time, he hones his skills and meditates in an attempt to forget about Buffy. This backfires, as he is able to clear everything out of his mind, except Buffy. He admits to himself that he still has strong feelings for her but knows he can not tell her. However, everything changes when Buffy meets fellow Uni classmate, Riley. With only Buffy's safety on his mind, Angel begins following both Buffy and Riley. This then turns into jealousy when he discovers they have been intimate with one another. Angel guesses Riley is not all that he seems and pursues his obsession to uncover Riley's true agenda, believing he must, in some way, be trying to trap Buffy. Angel finds out that Riley works for the 'Initiative' and tries to tell Buffy, who doesn't believe him. Angel goes on alone and infiltrates the Initiative, accidentally killing Professor Walsh in the process (this also leads to the Adam being uncompleted.) Angel proceeds by destroying the Initiative, however, inadvertedly eliminating all the evidence of Riley's connection to the 'Initiative'. The secrecy agreement between the Initiative members, causes Riley to not tell Buffy his true identity. This also leads Buffy to the conclusion that Angel is obsessed and she confronts him. This leads Angel to attempt the seemingly impossible by enlisting the help of Giles to become human, so he will be accepted among the Scoobies. He ultimately discovers that Vampirism cannot be reversed, but Giles informs him of a tale of a Vampire who was able to walk in Sunlight, though the method was unexplained. Angel decides to resurrect this Vampire in the form of a human (similar to Darla's resurrection), so he is able to ask him how. However, the ritual is not a success as they do not know the final step is the giving of human flesh. The resurrectee becomes human, but unknown to Angel and Giles, has no soul and also retains his ability to sire a human. This human turns Giles into a Vampire after learning of his extreme intelligence, but Giles is inevitably killed by Angel. Buffy blames him for the death of her beloved Watcher. Angel vows to redeem himself and captures the renegade. He kills him and uses his flesh to ressurect Giles as a human. However, with only his obsession of making Buffy happy driving him and also killing a human, he gains the personality of Angelus (His obsession with making Buffy happy resembles his relationship with Darla as Angelus. He remains as Angel, but becomes posessed by Angelus. After the death of the renegade human, it brought a true moment of happiness to the hiding Angelus inside of Angel, which brings Angelus to the surface during the last three episodes of the season.) Buffy ultimately concludes that Angel is a lost cause after realizing she is the meaning behind his trail of madness and sets out to slay him. After a massive showdown with Angelus, he is killed.

Also, Spike does not come back to Sunnydale, but instead terrorizes Los Angeles along with his new partner, Faith (lol). Cordelia, Wesley and Gunn begin their own team to battle against the two. However, Wolfram & Hart have discovered the true meaning of the Shanshu Prophecy, which is only destined for Angel, no matter what and he is resurrected, breaking the 'Second Chance' rule. It is revealed that during Season 4, Angel had planned to kill Angelus once and for all by allowing Buffy to kill him, so he set his seemingly crazy plan into action. This attempt to have the threat of Angelus gone forever grants him Champion status. He attempts to commit suicide several times but is resurrected beyond his will again and again. At first, he despises the Shanshu Prophecy for keeping him alive, but realizes he can "help the helpless" and eventually become human, so travels to L.A. and joins in with the battle against Spike and Faith.
 
I just couldn't imagine seven seasons with Angel in it. It would certainly screw up the plot for the fourth season. Not only that but I think Angel leaving Sunnydale forced Buffy to change, to adapt, and evolve, as a person and as a character. She probably wouldn't have been as stron as she had to be in the later seasons if Angel hadn't left. It was, however, nice to see him pop up every once and a while.
 
Well, I imagine if the WB hadn't picked up the spinoff, Angel (and likely Cordelia too) would have been back for the fourth season. I highly doubt Joss would abandon those characters altogether if he thought they were good enough (and interesting enough) to be at the center of a spinoff. The Buffy/Angel romance would have gotten stale, but Angel could have been used in some other capacity. As far as how he (and/or Cordelia) would have fit in to season four, I imagine it doesn't matter. Season four most likely would have been conceived as something entirely different from what we got with the addition of those characters. I think Spike would still have been brought back from time to time (Joss seemed to like him), but probably not as a regular since two vampires plus Buffy would be a lt of characters with super powers in the maincast.
 
TheBigBad, it's intersting plot. But there is jut one thing. I think Buffy could never move on with Angel in the same town. They would always bump in each other, when she is patroling or something. She asked him in The Prom "How am I supposed to stay away from you?", then she tells her he is leaving, he break her heart, mine too 🙁
The point is, the only way Buffy could move on is in the world where Angel is gone. I think it would kill her that he is so near her and she can't see him. It's better this way, I think, but she never ever really moved one. He can go to Japan, but he will always be there with her 😀
 
I think Angel had to leave, or the show would have gotten really repetetitive. Spike would have no point in being a character, unless they created a love triangle... which they already did when Angel moved away, anyway.
 
TheBigBad, it's intersting plot. But there is jut one thing. I think Buffy could never move on with Angel in the same town. They would always bump in each other, when she is patroling or something. She asked him in The Prom "How am I supposed to stay away from you?", then she tells her he is leaving, he break her heart, mine too 🙁
The point is, the only way Buffy could move on is in the world where Angel is gone. I think it would kill her that he is so near her and she can't see him. It's better this way, I think, but she never ever really moved one. He can go to Japan, but he will always be there with her 😀

I agree. There is no way Buffy would or could have moved on with Angel lurking around Sunnydale. He had to leave in order for her to be a person without him. She relied on him too much.
 
The only way this could have worked, at all, and remain both interesting and somewhere close to how the seasons we know played out, would have been for Angelus remaining unensouled in Bargaining, and returning from Acathla's hell a year later (start of S4) to be captured by the Initiative and getting chipped. That would have made S6 even darker and more disturbing, though... compared to the notion of Bangelus, Spuffy seems like butterflies and happy puppies, right? 😉

Of course, it all would change lots of things for S3 (not that I'd mind, I absolutely hate Bangel in that season), and I don't really see even a chipped Angelus going the path Spike went, becoming a semi-Scooby and a champion. It's good that he left at the time it happened.
 
With Joss' distaste for happy, healthy romantic relationships, I can see no way Angel could stay through the full seven seasons without the show growing stale. There's just so many times we can see them tentatively reach out, learn to trust, love and then hurt each other only to start afresh with the reaching out again before we're bored to the point of wanting to see Captain Forehead dusted and Buffy grieving, just to get a clean slate. (Or a tabula rasa, if you will.)

If Joss wasn't so bloody stubborn, though, it could have worked. Say, if AtS wasn't a success, and was taken off after the first season. I'm stretching your rules here a little, WA, and saying that we'd get season four pretty much as it is, with Angel in LA and Buffy finding her feet. Then, when Glory arrived in Sunnydale, what if Ben sought Angel's help? And Angel, true to style, sneaked back into Sunnydale without telling Buffy. I can see him trying to work against Glory whilst keeping his presence hidden, planning to take off again when Sunnydale is back to it's own, unsafe self.

Buffy would, of course, discover that he was there. And she'd be livid that he was sneaking into the outskirts of her life. They wouldn't be capable of keeping away from each other, though. The realisation that Angel would always be a shadow presence in their relationship could be what prompted Riley to take off. Xander's speak could easily be kept "“ he would try to sway Buffy towards Riley rather than Angel. Buffy would, in fact, dash after Riley, and be on time. Rather than stop him, though, she could stop just before she came into his range of sight, and just stand there doing the Wistful Buffy Look and let the helicopter leave.

From there on, in a strictly alternative Jossverse, Buffy and Angel could learn to trust each other for real, slowly rooting out the breeding grounds for jealousy that always pestered their relationship. That can be an interesting process to watch. Parallel to that, Willow and Tara could work on a way to permanently anchor Angel's soul so that he could, indeed, be a safe partner for Buffy. Giles, I imagine, would possibly harbour too much resentment due to the past to help. By the time a healthy loving relationship is reached, though, the viewer's interest easily wanes. The relation between Buffy and Angel would have to be a part of the backdrop rather than a factor that drives the story forward. At this point, the focus on the two of them would have to be how they share a mutual passion for the fight. (With a reasonably ironic sprinkling of who wants pale lilac curtains in the lounge and not.)

Where's Spike in all this, then? When I've played around with this thought, Spike's definitely a villain. I can easily picture him in the place of (snake tongue), being the one who plots to help Glory. He was a good recurring villain; I wouldn't mind seeing him continue like that. Then perhaps Wood would be allowed to stake him close to the season seven final? Much as I like Spike, I must admit that I would have liked to see Nikki Wood's killer staked.
 
I bet they would have just ran him into the Riley storyline. He would leave in Season 5 because she was too distant.
 
Professor Walsh
Professor Walsh
Nah, I don't think so. He's cut off people to much himself not to see what's behind such actions.
OK, I definitely don't think that that's an arc Angel could live through. 😀

Throughout Buffy, Joss has killed and gotten rid of every main character in the Scoobies EXCEPT that beginning four: Buffy, Giles, Willow, and Xander. In the beginning, Angel kinda joined them. He left a couple years later. Then came Kendra, who was soon killed. Then came Cordy and Oz. A couple years later, they too left. We got Faith, who then turned evil and went to prison. We had Joyce, but she was killed after five years. Got Dawn, and she was killed (the "key" side of her, anyway) Then it was Riley, Anya, Spike, and Tara. Killed some, sent others to who- knows- where. In the end, only the original four scoobies were left standing. All heroes, not needing anyone but themselves. 😀

So, since Angel was not one of the core four, he definitely would've either died or been sent away at sometime. Also, one can be a love interest for only so long. Eventually, something would've caused them to break up.

Thought! If Angel never left, Cordy never would've left to go join him! After a while, I'm sensing there would be some Cangel! 😀
 
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