Shanshu Prophecy - meant for Angel or Spike?

Emo

Emo

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Hey, I'm not sure if this has been discussed (i couldn't find it) but the shanshu prophecy, first mentioned in season one, got a bit foggy as to who it was for in season 5, as Spike had been re-ensouled, so their were two vampires with souls that the prophecy could be referring to. But since at the end of the season the Black Thorn made Angel sign away the prophecy, surely this means it was meant for Angel, and not for Spike? Or could this have been a trick or something? what's other peoples views and opinions on this? :trippy:
 
I think it was meant for a vampire with a soul... I actully think Spike deserves it more, Angel would enjoy humanity more Spike would hate it. Angel should probably get it but I think Spike will be shanshued.
 
Spike worked to get his soul back so I think that the Shanshu should have been his. Not only that but Angel was not really worthy of it by the end of S5. You don't kill a good friend just to prove a point to a bunch of low life die hard evil doers.
 
I'm actually not quite sure about this one, I mean as awesome as it'd be if they BOTH got it somehow, I don't think that is really likely.

But I mean, in defence of Spike, he worked to get his soul back while Angel was just cursed. But as far as who did more "evil fighting" I'd be inclinded to say Angel, but after re-reading the quotes from "To Shanshu in LA", I'm beginning to wonder if that's really what it's all about. Three quotes from the series seemed to stand out to me:

"...the vampire with a soul, once he fulfills his destiny, will Shanshu. Become human. It's his reward."
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"He has to survive the coming darkness, the apocalyptic battles, a few plagues, and some - uh, several - not that many - fiends that will be unleashed on the world."
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"It tells of an epic, apocalyptic battle and a vampire with a soul who plays a major role in that battle. And there's the suggestion that the vampire will get to live again."
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It says nothing really about "doing good", just surviving and playing a major role in a battle, everyone just assumed that they MEANT doing good (by "fufills his destiny") but how do we know that's the destiny for either Angel or Spike? Would the Shanshu go to whoever survives the battle (as in, only one of them would?), who does the most good, or would it maybe come into play hundreds of years down the road to whoever "fufills his destiny" (whatever that may be)?

And when they said "plays a major role" (and this is assuming the finale WAS that battle) wouldn't Angel be the one who played the larger role? Or would it go to Spike because he was "alive" to fight as well?

Also, in the finale Angel SIGNED AWAY the prophecy, now does that mean that HE is the only one who wouldn't get it? Or because it was the signature of a vampire with a soul in blood, would it automatically "sign away" the prophecy all together and any chance EITHER of them had at it? And did the Black Thorn even have enough power to do something like that? Especially if it was something that the Powers That Be would obviously have to play a huge role in?

But another thing that really has no evidence behind it is that this was a huge part of Angel's life throughout the series, all the time it seemed to be referring to him (since he was "the original" vamp with a soul), how would everyone react if 5 years later and after all that "hoop-la" it was really Spike? Would you say it goes to Angel simply because it has his name "written all over it" or would you say Spike for the same reason?

Or maybe it was never meant to be fufilled, I mean not all prophecies are right? Maybe it was simply there to put everyone on "the right track", get them doing what they were meant to (or just doing good in general). Maybe so that they would COME to that final battle, to that point, and for no other reason?

I think that Joss left WAY too many blanks to really say "who SHOULD get it" or "who deserves it" because who's to say it's meant to go to the one most deserving anyway? Or anyone at all? Maybe someone would have become human, maybe they'd pull a Darla and be re-vamped anyway, or just killed right away? I mean becoming a normal HUMAN in the middle of a battle like that? Or even surviving it as a vampire? Seems a but unlikely. There are so many possible outcomes (WAY more than JUST Angel or Spike becoming human) I really don't think anyone (besides maybe Joss Whedon) can say who would get it.

Maybe someday we'll get a tv-movie or spinoff or something to find out, or maybe, like the finale, it will always just be a mystery left for the fans to write on their own.
 
C
Cordelia
Great post!
W
Winifred
Great Points!
I think the signing away was probably a test of loyalty... I don't see how you could sign-away a prophecy.

I think Angel deserves it, because he can't ever be happy as a vampire, whereas Spike can.
 
S
StuckinTraffic
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Allycat said:
I think the signing away was probably a test of loyalty... I don't see how you could sign-away a prophecy.

I think Angel deserves it, because he can't ever be happy as a vampire, whereas Spike can.
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Why should the shanshu be something that someone deserves as a prize? What is so great about being a human? There's more to being an individual than being human.
 
I understand the arguement for Spike, I really do, but I think it was meant for Angel. I mean he was the most vicious vampire in recorded history until he was cursed. Then to have to deal with remorse and having nobody for like 100 years was a huge punishment. I just think that the way Angel goes out of his way to try to atone for all of his evil makes it meant for him. Besides, he was the one who made Spike all evil in the first place. I can see why lots say it was meant for Spike and I can't really argue your points, but my personal opinion is that the prophecy was meant for Ange.
 
Mulder22 said:
I understand the arguement for Spike, I really do, but I think it was meant for Angel. I mean he was the most vicious vampire in recorded history until he was cursed. Then to have to deal with remorse and having nobody for like 100 years was a huge punishment. I just think that the way Angel goes out of his way to try to atone for all of his evil makes it meant for him.
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I couldn't have agreed more, well said.
 
I just think that the way Angel goes out of his way to try to atone for all of his evil makes it meant for him.
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And that only came about, because the Gypsies put a curse on the soul they had given him. I think this is why I don't take Angel's good deeds seriously. If he had made the choice to win back his soul, I would have. But he didn't. On three different occasions, someone had to force the cursed soul upon him. Against his will. And to me, this makes his good deeds irrevelant.
 
C
Cordelia
Very much agreed :)
I think what Lady Lavinia posted above is the most relevant arguement for why Spike deserves the Shanshu more; however, the original question is who was the shanshu meant for. That my friends, we'll never know 😀
 
That's why I hate that they didn't continue Angel, they wrote it so it could have gone either way, up until the very end, and they did that so it would leave people like us guessing and arguing over who it might be, I really wish they would have ended it properly with someone becoming a real boy again. And totally off the subject ....one of them should have ended up with Buffy....the immortal story line is crap (although I did like that episode very much...when Angel and Spike work together you can always count on laughs)
 
For me there isn't even a question, its meant for angel, he was attracted to it, and wesley said people are attracted to prophecys about themselves. Also there is the fact that its the PTB that reward the chosen vampire, and they would know who the prophecy was about and they chose angel, he's the one who is their champion, they never take a role in spikes life.

Also the oracles would have surely known who it was for and they said it was angel, as they told him when he avverted the apocalypse he would e human in the episode i will remember you
 
M
Mulder22
Good Points!!!!
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Winifred
Some good points!
angelic_slayer said:
But I mean, in defence of Spike, he worked to get his soul back while Angel was just cursed...

It says nothing really about "doing good", just surviving and playing a major role in a battle, everyone just assumed that they MEANT doing good (by "fufills his destiny") but how do we know that's the destiny for either Angel or Spike? Would the Shanshu go to whoever survives the battle (as in, only one of them would?), who does the most good, or would it maybe come into play hundreds of years down the road to whoever "fufills his destiny" (whatever that may be)? ...
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You have a good point here, which left me wondering the exact same thing myself. Just like you quoted from the series, I also wonder what they mean by "doing good". I assumed at first that it meant by doing good, as in working hard to fight evil, then I surely would've have agreed that the Shansu goes to Angel. But seeing as though the prophecy is a little ambiguous, then the destiny can mean anything. "He has to survive the coming darkness, the apocalyptic battles, a few plagues, and some - uh, several - not that many - fiends that will be unleashed on the world." From this quote alone, the prophecy makes me question whether it means exactly what it says there, or it's cryptic.

I personally believe that we will never really know who The Shansu Prophecy was meant for.
 
So what if angel didnt choose to have a soul, how could he!!! The thing you have to realise is that just because spike chose to get a soul doesn't make him better when he has one because he is completely different, the demon is now only a part of him instead of what he is. Spike with a soul should not recieve any praise for what he did when he didnt have a soul because in effect he was literally someone else then, smae goes for angel. This means the shanshu should be based on what they do after they get a soul and angel clearly has done more good
 
I prefer the cursed soul to seeking a soul. It seems more realistic to me. Evil things wouldn't want their souls back....so I never bought Spike's getting a soul a reason that he was better. I think that was just for the story to give the audience surprise and change the show's dynamic by season 7. Angel has done more good and is the Powers' warrior so I would give the shanshu to him.
 
With the whole Spike vs Angel with a soul thing, I really think it could go either way (as to who could get more "credit"). I mean, you could say that Spike deserves it because he seeked out his soul, and went through deadly challenges to get it. However, one could say that Angel deserves the credit because he was cursed, and worked with his destiny to eventually fight evil; despite how hard and just overall crappy it would have been for him. Joss really did a whammy with the series, it's so hard to tell who "should" get what, or if either should at all. Makes someone really see why they may be reluctant to do any kind of tv movies! (Not that i don't want one(s)! Lol, you can never have enough buffy-verse! 😀 )
 
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