Joan the Vampire Slayer
Carpe Spuffy!
So, if Angel's motivating factor in doing good is the reward of becoming human, why doesn't he stay human when given the chance? Let's discuss.
Shanshu Prophecy
- Thread starter Joan the Vampire Slayer
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hoponlilmama
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Because he doesn't want the 'win' the easy way. He wants to earn it. The Shanshu isn't even confirmed as actually real.
He chooses to be good and do good as is.
And slightly unrelated, it's one of the reasons why he also decides to destroy the Gem of Amara.
I was reminded of one of the popular quotes from the series. I had to look up the entire exchange because I'm a little rusty on early AtS quotes!
Angel: Well, I guess I kinda worked it out. If there's no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do. Now. Today. I fought for so long, for redemption, for a reward, and finally just to beat the other guy, but I never got it.
Kate: And now you do?
Angel: Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because, I don't think people should suffer as they do. Because, if there's no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world.
He chooses to be good and do good as is.
And slightly unrelated, it's one of the reasons why he also decides to destroy the Gem of Amara.
I was reminded of one of the popular quotes from the series. I had to look up the entire exchange because I'm a little rusty on early AtS quotes!
Angel: Well, I guess I kinda worked it out. If there's no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do. Now. Today. I fought for so long, for redemption, for a reward, and finally just to beat the other guy, but I never got it.
Kate: And now you do?
Angel: Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because, I don't think people should suffer as they do. Because, if there's no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
I think you're right. He never takes the easy way out, because he likes to torture himself ;)
hoponlilmama
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Joan the Vampire Slayer
Carpe Spuffy!
DeepBlueJoy
Lion Faced Kitteh
He cannot tolerate being weak or mortal. He would not do well as an ordinary man. He would "Riley" even worse than Riley did.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Great point.
XanderesqueMan
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I think there are a number of reasons why Angel wouldn't want to become human before the fulfillment of the Shanshu Prophecy. The primary reason he refuses to accept it in "I Will Remember You" is because he realizes that his value, to Buffy and to the world, is greater as a vampire with a soul than it is as a human.
This isn't delusion or ego talking. He's objectively correct. It's possible that, with time, he might have learned to be a great force for the cause of good, but as things stood in that moment, he was weak and unable to provide the support for Buffy or the lost souls that he protects. His body had changed but his mind hadn't, so like someone who injures themself, his mind needed time to catch up and stop acting like he still had his vampiric abilities. He was slower, weaker, and less durable than he had been, and it nearly cost Buffy her life. That was what drove it home for him. Prior to that, he was willing to work through whatever he had to because it was a dream come true, because it meant he could be with her, be happy with her. After that, he found it intolerable to think about living that way.
@hoponlilmama mentioned Angel's refusal to keep the Gem of Amara in "In the Dark," which is another example of him giving up the ability to "live in the daylight" like a normal person, and I think part of his reason here is the same. He explicitly said so, after all. He names the objection to be that he can't be there for the people who need him if he has the ring, not because he's mortal in that case, but because he would be able to (and thus would inevitably) live in their world (the daytime) and would end up neglecting the people who desperately need his help in the dark, when there is no other help. I do think he has a second reason, though it is not stated—that is, the fact that it isn't real. It would allow him to walk among men, to blend among them, to pretend to be one of them, but that would be all it was—pretending. He doesn't want to pretend at being human. He wants to be human.
There's a secondary reason that Angel doesn't accept such loopholes as the Gem of Amara or the Mohra demon blood, in my opinion. That is that he doesn't believe he deserves it. He looks forward to the fulfillment of the Shanshu Prophecy as hope because, when it happens, he'll have earned it, and that will be decided not by him, but by an external force, the Powers That Be. But in the present, he has no illusions that he has, even though by anyone's standards, he has done more for the world than could ever be expected of him. But, as he tells Faith, he believes he may never make up for what he's (Angelus has) done, meaning he can never be forgiven, never deserve a reward for what he's (Angelus has) done.
Angel: The truth is, no matter how much you suffer, no matter how many good deeds you do to try to make up for the past, you may never balance out the cosmic scale.
I also dispute the premise that the reward was his primary reason for doing good. It certainly wasn't to begin with. No, I don't think he does good so he can "become a real boy." I think the idea that someday he might be human again isn't his reason, but rather his motivation, and there is a difference between those two things. I think it's what gives him the hope to keep going, the hope that someday all this pain, all this hardship, all this suffering will end, will be rewarded. His reason is that he wants to help people, wants to make up for Angelus (even though he has no responsibility for that, he feels responsible), but his goalpost, the thing he can focus on to push him through is the reward.
Anyway, those are just my couple of cents, for what they're worth. 🙂
This isn't delusion or ego talking. He's objectively correct. It's possible that, with time, he might have learned to be a great force for the cause of good, but as things stood in that moment, he was weak and unable to provide the support for Buffy or the lost souls that he protects. His body had changed but his mind hadn't, so like someone who injures themself, his mind needed time to catch up and stop acting like he still had his vampiric abilities. He was slower, weaker, and less durable than he had been, and it nearly cost Buffy her life. That was what drove it home for him. Prior to that, he was willing to work through whatever he had to because it was a dream come true, because it meant he could be with her, be happy with her. After that, he found it intolerable to think about living that way.
@hoponlilmama mentioned Angel's refusal to keep the Gem of Amara in "In the Dark," which is another example of him giving up the ability to "live in the daylight" like a normal person, and I think part of his reason here is the same. He explicitly said so, after all. He names the objection to be that he can't be there for the people who need him if he has the ring, not because he's mortal in that case, but because he would be able to (and thus would inevitably) live in their world (the daytime) and would end up neglecting the people who desperately need his help in the dark, when there is no other help. I do think he has a second reason, though it is not stated—that is, the fact that it isn't real. It would allow him to walk among men, to blend among them, to pretend to be one of them, but that would be all it was—pretending. He doesn't want to pretend at being human. He wants to be human.
There's a secondary reason that Angel doesn't accept such loopholes as the Gem of Amara or the Mohra demon blood, in my opinion. That is that he doesn't believe he deserves it. He looks forward to the fulfillment of the Shanshu Prophecy as hope because, when it happens, he'll have earned it, and that will be decided not by him, but by an external force, the Powers That Be. But in the present, he has no illusions that he has, even though by anyone's standards, he has done more for the world than could ever be expected of him. But, as he tells Faith, he believes he may never make up for what he's (Angelus has) done, meaning he can never be forgiven, never deserve a reward for what he's (Angelus has) done.
Angel: The truth is, no matter how much you suffer, no matter how many good deeds you do to try to make up for the past, you may never balance out the cosmic scale.
I also dispute the premise that the reward was his primary reason for doing good. It certainly wasn't to begin with. No, I don't think he does good so he can "become a real boy." I think the idea that someday he might be human again isn't his reason, but rather his motivation, and there is a difference between those two things. I think it's what gives him the hope to keep going, the hope that someday all this pain, all this hardship, all this suffering will end, will be rewarded. His reason is that he wants to help people, wants to make up for Angelus (even though he has no responsibility for that, he feels responsible), but his goalpost, the thing he can focus on to push him through is the reward.
Anyway, those are just my couple of cents, for what they're worth. 🙂
BuffyElevated
Couldn't agree more! Great post!
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Great post, agree!
hoponlilmama
Perfectly said!
BaskingINBangel
Finally! Someone else who "gets" Angel, and his entire motivation. Great post!
XanderesqueMan
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Thanks, Joanie. Britt... Hop-on...? Little Mama? No, that feels weird. 😛
I don't share my rather verbose thoughts for validation, but I'm not going to lie. It's nice to get. 😉 Especially from two of my favorite ladies here... and Hopon. 😛 Sorry. No offense. I just haven't interacted with you much yet. Someday, I'm sure we'll be great friends. Maybe.
Xander: Oh, me and Buffy go way back. Old friends, very close. Then there's that period of estrangement, where I think we both grew as people, but now here we are. It's like old times. I'm quite moved.
AlphaFoxtrot
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Angel has two pledges, the first is to protect Buffy, the second is to repay the mercy shown to him in amends. As he can't protect Buffy while he is a human, he must be a vampire.
But, to protect him from the temptation of a dark power willing to tempt him with what he wants, he is offered a chance to get everything he wants after his first mission is over.
From this, I would argue that IWRY is a test.
I will not deny that Buffy is Angel's heart's desire, and that he hopes he would escape damnation and meet his father, mother and sister again. But those were never why he fought.
But, to protect him from the temptation of a dark power willing to tempt him with what he wants, he is offered a chance to get everything he wants after his first mission is over.
From this, I would argue that IWRY is a test.
I will not deny that Buffy is Angel's heart's desire, and that he hopes he would escape damnation and meet his father, mother and sister again. But those were never why he fought.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Because Angel wants to earn forgiveness, salvation, and a second chance.
People that call him 'weak' for not being able to cope with being human simply fail to understand his fundamental driving force. Remember that he gave up the Ring of Amara as well, for the same reason, he didn't earn it. Not because he couldn't handle being 'strong' or some crap.
It stands in strong contrast to Spike's monumental, toxic entitlement, somebody who will violently bludgeon his way to whatever he wants; Buffy, a soul, the Shanshu, with no concept of how he will cope when he gets it.
People that call him 'weak' for not being able to cope with being human simply fail to understand his fundamental driving force. Remember that he gave up the Ring of Amara as well, for the same reason, he didn't earn it. Not because he couldn't handle being 'strong' or some crap.
It stands in strong contrast to Spike's monumental, toxic entitlement, somebody who will violently bludgeon his way to whatever he wants; Buffy, a soul, the Shanshu, with no concept of how he will cope when he gets it.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
In all fairness, Angel himself describes himself as "weak..." Also good post, I agree.
hoponlilmama
Well said.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
@Joan the Vampire Slayer : Yeah, Angel is wrong. He survived 100 years in torturous hell and came out with his sanity intact. Giles commentary on that likelihood is a better insight into Angel's character.
XanderesqueMan
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Characters are wrong about themselves a lot. Well-written characters included. Because a lot of real humans have thoughts about themselves that are incorrect. And the cast of Buffy and Angel have never been an exception to that. Faith hates herself and wants to die because she feels she doesn't deserve forgiveness. Angel thinks he's responsible for the actions of Angelus. Buffy fears she's the reason her parents broke up. Wesley fears his father's opinions of him are correct. Xander worries that he's just like his father (or will be someday.) Tara thinks she is part demon (thanks to her family.) And so on.
As to this particular matter, Angel said that at a particular moment in time when he was feeling weak, during the events of "Amends," and I think the circumstances should be taken into account. He had only been back from a hundred years of torture in a hell dimension for a few months, had newfound guilt over what Angelus had done to the people he cares about (Buffy and the Scooby Gang), not to mention all the other victims he had in that time period (such as Theresa, killed in "Passion"), and was being manipulated through psychological torture by the First, who was showing him the ghosts of his past, the people Angelus had murdered, perhaps worst of all Jenny Calendar (because of the recency, her closeness to Buffy, and the fact that she had been killed because she was trying to help him.)
Angel: Look, I'm weak. I've never been anything else. It's not the demon in me that needs killing, Buffy. It's the man ... Because I want you so badly! I want to take comfort in you, and I know it'll cost me my soul, and a part of me doesn't care.
When he was human, Liam was a slave to his impulses, which led to partying, drinking, and sleeping around like a fratboy. Looking back now that he has changed, Angel (understandably) doesn't respect nor like Liam. And he blames his own desires as a man, the love he feels for Buffy, for the loss of his soul (even though he couldn't have known that would happen), and all the pain and suffering that followed as a result.
At this point, Angel views his two primary responsibilities to be protecting Buffy and caging Angelus, and the love he feels for her caused him to fail at both. He unreasonably blames himself for that, especially since it is his love for Buffy that caused Angelus to focus so intently on destroying her and those around her. Combined with the fact that the human he was had not been the best person, one who gave in to attraction and desire, much as Angel had with Buffy (though the feeling behind it was different, for sure), he lumps his distaste for Liam in with his guilt over Angelus' actions and puts the whole load squarely on his own shoulders, feeling it is him who is responsible for all of it.
The irony is that he proves his lack of weakness by trying to end his own life. He doesn't want to die. He wants to be with Buffy, as he himself noted, to take comfort in her. If he were truly as weak as the First convinced him he was, he would try to do that. Instead, he decides to take proactive action, to prevent the problem from ever being a problem again. He was acting on the very strength and noble instincts that he believed he didn't have.
Regardless, I don't think if you asked the Angel from Angel the Series, or heck, even the Angel from "Graduation Day," that he would give this same speech.
wolfheart
Barking at the Moon
I akways thiought that Angels/Angelus was divided in faith, good/evil, love Buffy/Kill buffy, disgusted by his actions as Angelus/loved the carnage and so on, so i thought becoming human was not a gift but a burden
hoponlilmama
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Okay, this has nothing to do with the thread but I must respond (and then back to the original discussion!).
When I found this forum and decided to join up, finding a username takes a little bit of thought. As Spike is my favourite character, I wanted something Spike-related, and nothing as obvious as 'Spike fan'.
I was just coming off the back of re-watching Season 5 of Angel, where in the episode The Girl in Question, Spike on the motorcycle says to Angel, "Hop on, lil' mama!", and that popped into my head.
In hindsight, probably not the best username to have chosen, but here we are. I'm owning it. 🤣🤣
Everyone's cool here. I love reading everyone's posts (including yours) and thoughts on all things BTVS/AtS - and everything not!
DeepBlueJoy
Lion Faced Kitteh
I never realized where it came from. It ran together without caps so my brain tried to make it one word that sounds like this in my head: hippolmania. no idea wbat a hippol is. 🙂 People have odd names so i just shrugged.
It IS utterly unique!
You do know you can change your user name, right? Some people won't know it is you unless you put "used to be hoponlilmama" in your sig at least for the medium term.
I used to be BlueBoo on another site and i hated it from day one. (Answer: Failure of imagination)
ALittleSpikeMania who ised to be hoponlilmama
XanderesqueMan
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Good plan. It's fine to stop the train for a moment, but we don't want to switch tracks entirely.
I get that. When I first started hanging out in fan communities, I went by a couple of names. One of them was WillowCrazed (then WillowsGuy) due to my crush on early seasons Willow, but it didn't last long. It was a bit too on the nose for me. My very first name was BuffysGuy (due to season one Xander's feelings for her and me just needing a name quickly.) It stuck for awhile, long after Xander's feelings had changed. I eventually settled on XanderesqueMan after describing myself that way jokingly in a conversation. It fits me, and it's series related, so it works for me.
I didn't think of that scene. Nice reference
It's mysterious. It'll get people talking about you. 😉
Thanks. I try to be informative, well-spoken, and entertaining (where possible.)
I haven't had an issue with anyone here. Certainly, there are people I like more than others, but everyone has been super friendly and accepting of me (even if Met does fall asleep during my longer posts 😉 ), which is a relief after such a long time (fifteen plus years) away from fandom communities. I've even met some people I've come to consider real friends, not just friendly acquaintances (once I survived Anyanka's attempts to make me part of a human sacrifice. 😛 ) Of course, I have avoided the Shipping Battlegrounds for my own safety. I don't have the infantry support needed for that. 😛
wolfheart
Barking at the Moon
My initial name was machinewolfheart(my love for machine head/wolves and braveheart) then i wanted it to be wolfhart but then came up with wolfheart.
hoponlilmama
Scooby
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I just read that as 'hippo mania'! 😁
Yes indeed I do! Thank you for mentioning it. 🙂
Honestly though? I've been here for over 3 years now, and as I said in a previous post, I'm owning it. It's so silly it makes me chuckle.
BlueBoo makes me think of Illyria (and probably something Spike would call her!). And I don't think it was a failure of imagination!
Thanks for the background on how you settled on your username, but for the record, WillowsGuy is a cute little username too.
Or have people saying... "What kind of BTVS/AtS reference is that?!" 😂
Everyone has something to contribute, and naturally, you'll gravitate towards certain users. As for shipping wars, I'll make my voice heard when I like. We're on a forum, and the point of it is discussion. As long as no one is being downright nasty, swearing, or personally insulting anyone, then bring on the debate if one should choose to engage. That's up to the individual.