Shanshu vs. I Will Remember You

[caritas08]

If Angel clearly decides that the best thing for everyone is for him to remain a "champion" and give up his humanity by having the Oracles take back the day, then why is he so overjoyed in the Season One finale to find out that he will "shanshu" and become human after "earning" it?

Even if he's "earned" it, that doesn't mean the world won't still need a champion or that Buffy won't still die sooner without him fighting as a vampire.

 

[Kean]

If Angel clearly decides that the best thing for everyone is for him to remain a "champion" and give up his humanity by having the Oracles take back the day, then why is he so overjoyed in the Season One finale to find out that he will "shanshu" and become human after "earning" it?

Even if he's "earned" it, that doesn't mean the world won't still need a champion or that Buffy won't still die sooner without him fighting as a vampire.

If the Oracles hadn't told him that his staying human would mean an early death for Buffy, I doubt we would have seen him return to life as a vampire with a soul.

Being told that his staying with Buffy meant her death reinforced his decision to leave Sunnydale in the first place. He viewed himself as a hindrance to her life and becoming a vampire again was what he was supposed to do.

However, I think it must be said that humanity was synonymous with redemption for Angel and it was something he needed to do. Or at least something that he felt he needed to do at the time.

I'm fairly certain he has different outlook on redemption, humanity and his part in it, now.

 

[white avenger]

If the Oracles hadn't told him that his staying human would mean an early death for Buffy, I doubt we would have seen him return to life as a vampire with a soul.

Being told that his staying with Buffy meant her death reinforced his decision to leave Sunnydale in the first place. He viewed himself as a hindrance to her life and becoming a vampire again was what he was supposed to do.

It's always seemed to me as if the Oracles weren't deliberately manipulating Angel into becoming a vampire once more by telling him what was very obviously only a half truth. Buffy DID die, defending someone else who she loved. Maybe Angel had the small satisfaction of knowing that, at least, she didn't die defending HIM, though she was just as dead, either way. I wonder if, during that summer when she was dead, it ever occurred to him that what he really threw away was the chance to share a human existence with the woman he loved, if only for that amount of time. Something like Sara Connor's statement at the end of the original "Terminator."

"Though we only had that short time together, we loved a lifetime's worth."

That's what he gave away, and what he'll almost certainly never have again, at least not with Buffy, because Joss simply won't allow it.

 

[caritas08]

I guess my question is, is it just understood that since Shanshu won't take place for a very long time, that the danger of Buffy dying earlier will be over by then? (Which is ironic since she dies the very next year). Don't get me wrong I love both IWRY and the Shanshu arc, I'm just a little confused since so little time passes between the events of IWRY and the revelation of the Shanshu.

 

[Kean]

It's always seemed to me as if the Oracles weren't deliberately manipulating Angel into becoming a vampire once more by telling him what was very obviously only a half truth. Buffy DID die, defending someone else who she loved. Maybe Angel had the small satisfaction of knowing that, at least, she didn't die defending HIM, though she was just as dead, either way. I wonder if, during that summer when she was dead, it ever occurred to him that what he really threw away was the chance to share a human existence with the woman he loved, if only for that amount of time. Something like Sara Connor's statement at the end of the original "Terminator."

"Though we only had that short time together, we loved a lifetime's worth."

That's what he gave away, and what he'll almost certainly never have again, at least not with Buffy, because Joss simply won't allow it.

There's a fic by Yahtzee, called Sea Change. It's about Angel's journey to Sri Lanka on a cargo ship. Lindsey is there too, trying to run from his life, his choices and W&H. But there is a scene where Angel basically confronts what you have written above. I thought I'd post the specific section...

"Don't you have a mission to get back to?" Lindsey said.

Angel shrugs. "I'll go back."

"When exactly? Because I don't think you're checking yourself into a monastery just for the weekend."

"When I can face it."

That strikes Lindsey as a little odd. "When you can face what?" he says, thinking about walking into Wolfram & Hart every day. "When you can face the fact that the gods in their heavens chose you to be their very special errand boy? That the road you're on leads straight to the Pearly Gates? Yeah, that's gotta be a cross to bear."

No sooner is it out of his mouth than Lindsey wants to cringe. He's supposed to be supportive, or barring that, silent; also, it just occurred to him that the idea of bearing a cross probably carries some very literal and ugly resonance for vampires.

He glances over at Angel, and Angel's mouth is twisted in a grimace. Lindsey's waiting for Angel to lash out -- but Angel's not mad at him.

"When I can face that they chose me," Angel says. His hand moves up to his neck; Lindsey watches his fist clench around the claddagh ring on the chain. The movement seems instinctive, like a primitive clutching a talisman or a totem of something very dear. "When I can face that they let me have all the agony that comes with a soul but deny me the happiness that's supposed to make up for it. When I can face that they make me promises, that they make bargains with me, and they only keep their word if they feel like it. That they torture my best friend, make her see things so we can stop them, but they pick and choose what to make her see. What they'll let me prevent."

Angel's hand tightens even more around the ring, so hard the metal's got to be cutting into his flesh. He doesn't seem to notice it, just stares out at the water as his face contorts in rage. "When I can face the fact that they asked me to sacrifice the thing I wanted most in this world -- the thing she wanted most in this world -- that they asked me to do it to save her, and I did it, I did it to save her, and then they didn't save her -- they just let her --"

They? She? Lindsey can't quite put this together, but he's pretty damn sure it would be a bad time to interrupt.

"When I can deal with the fact that they don't care, and I can give it all up and it can all mean nothing anyway, and when I can finally just let it go --" Angel rips at the chain, breaking it, and throws the ring with all his might into the ocean. One glint of light against the waves, and it's gone forever.

Lindsey looks at Angel, surprised; Angel is staring after the ring with something that goes beyond horror, beyond regret. If Angel could dive into the ocean right now, spend the next fifty years diving back into the water over and over to find that ring and have any chance of doing so, Lindsey is sure he'd do it. Because he has the sense that Angel threw away something more than just a bit of jewelry, and that Angel knows it too.

But the ocean's too vast for that, and even Angel's life is too short. After a moment, Angel turns to go back inside. Lindsey follows him, and as they lie next to each other that night, Lindsey realizes that Angel is even further away, in his mind, than he was before.

So, after this, he doesn't push.

Sea Change by Yahtzee

 

[Marisa]

I don't know that makes no sense. Maybe he was just overwhelmed in I will remember you. Maybe he was seeing clearly in Shanshu. Although in IWRY Angel was doing it for Buffy as well.

 

[white avenger]

caritas08 agrees: That's a very well written excerpt and my specific issues with the Powers. Always wondered if they weren't one and the same with WR&H manipulating Angel to their own plan for him.

I'll see that and raise you one more. What if the Powers, the Senior Partners, and the First Evil are all somehow connected, manipulating events like a giant chess game, not really caring who wins this or who loses that, just seeking some sort of sick pleasure from watching humans and demons alike, in a constant struggle.

The ultimate Buffyverse conspiracy theory.

 

[kndizzle]

I saw a movie where that exact thing was theorized. The battle of good vs. evil simply being one large wager on the souls of humanity for no purpose but to see who would win. It would be just like Joss to do something like that. But it might be a little too far for him to want to reach. Its an interesting theory though.

 

[VisionGirl]

It's an interesting theory but I rather think W&H is a separate entity from the powers. I think the Powers are more interesting & complex as forces of good that focus on the bigger picture rather than individual people/souls. This is where our heroes are sometimes in conflict with them.

 

[kndizzle]

To add in my two cents:

His motivations as a champion and redemption seeker were part of it, but Angel's decision to revert back from humanity was made almost entirely because he believed it would save Buffy's life. If he had any idea that TPTB's idea of "saving" her was simply killing her off in another year, then I'm convinced this decision never would have been considered.

I've heard the argument, "Well, Angel should suspected The Powers were screwing with him. He should have at least tried to disprove or question them." I disagree. Angel was protecting the woman he loves. If someone were to threaten the one you love, wouldn't you do anything in your power to prevent it, without thought? He had no reason to distrust the powers at this point. And, to him, it was further confirmation that his relationship with Buffy hindered rather than helped at that point. His main concern is her survival. It's more important than his ego, his happiness, even more than his own humanity.

 

[PassionBecoming]

To add in my two cents:

His motivations as a champion and redemption seeker were part of it, but Angel's decision to revert back from humanity was made almost entirely because he believed it would save Buffy's life. If he had any idea that TPTB's idea of "saving" her was simply killing her off in another year, then I'm convinced this decision never would have been considered.

I've heard the argument, "Well, Angel should suspected The Powers were screwing with him. He should have at least tried to disprove or question them." I disagree. Angel was protecting the woman he loves. If someone were to threaten the one you love, wouldn't you do anything in your power to prevent it, without thought? He had no reason to distrust the powers at this point. And, to him, it was further confirmation that his relationship with Buffy hindered rather than helped at that point. His main concern is her survival. It's more important than his ego, his happiness, even more than his own humanity.

Yeah, I'm thinking it's along the lines of this. I also feel, like with the Gem of Amara, Angel doesn't feel like he's EARNED his humanity. He has a need to EARN his happiness, not just have it fall in his lap.

 

[kndizzle]

Yeah, I'm thinking it's along the lines of this. I also feel, like with the Gem of Amara, Angel doesn't feel like he's EARNED his humanity. He has a need to EARN his happiness, not just have it fall in his lap.

I think in his mind anything less than earning it for good means it can be taken away, and that's not something he's willing to risk. Especially because his happiness has so much to do with Buffy. He won't risk being with her until he knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that they'll have a future, which is all he's ever wanted for her. That's why the Shanshu doesn't change anything in terms of him and Buffy. In his mind, it isn't real until it happens, and to tell her before then would only hurt her.

 

[white avenger]

Actually, I think that, if he had simply taken a little more time to think about just what he was actually doing, his decision wouldn't have been to give the day, and his humanity, back. Angel had defied prophecies before and gotten away with it, and he would again in the future. He threw away something that he stands a far better chance of never regaining than he ever does getting it back a second time. Especially with Joss stacking the deck against him.

 

[kndizzle]

It's true, Joss is a fan of pain. The kind that makes you want to throw things and yell like Darth Vader. (NOOOOOOOOOO) and as long as that's the case neither Angel ir Buffy will see any kind of peace, together or seperate, Shanshu or otherwise.