Shanshu, who?
- Thread starter Kana
- Start date
wiccianslayer
Vampire Diva
Yeah that was the point!!!! but besides that, Angelus pretty much stole every scene he was in!!! and caleb was just so twisted you couldn't help but be fascinated by him! I mean it's not like I didn't want Buffy to cut him in half but while he was there he made it fun!
Angel's vision
Silence! I Keel you!
The Arguments for "it's Angel's show" and He signed it away" and "It was predicted that he will be cut off from the PTB" are pretty weak I agree,
BUT the latter one was a reason why the demon Vocah killed the oracles, I guess that was the "cutting off" the scroll was refering to.
There isn't really good evidence as to whom the scroll was refering to Angel or Spike, and I guess the writers will continue to tease us as they started to do in AS5.
BUT the latter one was a reason why the demon Vocah killed the oracles, I guess that was the "cutting off" the scroll was refering to.
There isn't really good evidence as to whom the scroll was refering to Angel or Spike, and I guess the writers will continue to tease us as they started to do in AS5.
wiccianslayer
Vampire Diva
he so did not!! !!!!!! !!!!!!!
Edit:
He was a such a .......i can't even say what he is cause i dont wanna risk getting banned but if you like him you might as well like warren
Edit:
He was a such a .......i can't even say what he is cause i dont wanna risk getting banned but if you like him you might as well like warren
Kean
yes he did!!!! After Angelus and the Mayor he was the best villian
Not really, Warren's character was pathetic, there was nothing intersting about him. Caleb caught the attention, he was a masoginistic f**k but he enetertained!
palabravampiress
I agree. I loved Caleb. He met a fitting end, too. *snickers*
wiccianslayer
Vampire Diva
Okay I can't resist this. I believe Connor is not a vampire but since his parents are, then he is part demon like Doyle. Otherwise he would not have that strength. I think. :biggrin:
Me too. I didn't hate him too much because Holtz did mess him up real good emotionally and mentally. I can't forgive him though for throwing Angel to the bottom of the sea, and playing the good warrior against evil as if nothing happened, and as if he's replacing Angel.
About the shanshu: I believe it's for Angel.
Kana
Soulless human
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2007
- Messages
- 1,305
Lol, since when was Xander a vampire with a soul? Or is there a storyline I don't know about yet?
A
Allycat
Guest
How about Gunn? Now that he's a vampire, he already meets half the requirements!
white avenger
Good point, but by that logic, every vamp who has ever been turned has the same chance. The first prerequisit is that nasty ol' soul.
Joyce Summers
Mom of a Chocoholic
Ooh! I like that thought too. And Willow can do the rest of the job.
But if I had to choose between Angel and Spike for getting the prophecy, I think it's kind of a 'they are both on the same path and who reaches it first by whatever fate-out-of-their-hands means gets shanshu-ed. But I do lean towards Spike. Mainly because Angel was cursed with his soul while Spike earned his, doesn't matter the reasons, he still fought for it. Spike definitely falls into the Champion category after sacrificing himself to save the world and Slayers everywhere. Plus, Spike even without a soul can be a good person and even if I love the Bangel relationship so so much (I'm a total romantic) I still believe Spike is so much a better person than Angel. He is just more good. And I think that gives, well not a right, but more reason for him to have the shanshu. Spike has killed, but Angel tortured, maimed, scarred and I truly don't think Spike has ever done something as severe as what Angelus did with Jenny- the scene in Giles' apartment, etc. How can a man who has been so,so evil ever be allowed redemption? To be rewarded for a sum amount of good after commiting so much evil that he did 'with a song in his heart'?It just doesn't seem right to me. Which is why I lean toward Spike
But if I had to choose between Angel and Spike for getting the prophecy, I think it's kind of a 'they are both on the same path and who reaches it first by whatever fate-out-of-their-hands means gets shanshu-ed. But I do lean towards Spike. Mainly because Angel was cursed with his soul while Spike earned his, doesn't matter the reasons, he still fought for it. Spike definitely falls into the Champion category after sacrificing himself to save the world and Slayers everywhere. Plus, Spike even without a soul can be a good person and even if I love the Bangel relationship so so much (I'm a total romantic) I still believe Spike is so much a better person than Angel. He is just more good. And I think that gives, well not a right, but more reason for him to have the shanshu. Spike has killed, but Angel tortured, maimed, scarred and I truly don't think Spike has ever done something as severe as what Angelus did with Jenny- the scene in Giles' apartment, etc. How can a man who has been so,so evil ever be allowed redemption? To be rewarded for a sum amount of good after commiting so much evil that he did 'with a song in his heart'?It just doesn't seem right to me. Which is why I lean toward Spike
white avenger
white avenger
The thing I've never really understood about the Shanshu is: why would someone who is immortal, possessing of superhuman strength, and the senses of a predatory animal want to work that hard to lose all of that just to get a sun tan? Okay, supposedly he would also be able to have children (no, wait, Angel's already done that), enjoy human food (no, wait, Spike does that regularly), have the woman he loves, (no, wait, Angel and Spike have BOTH done that)...The only thing left to desire is growing old, and believe me my friends, if that's a reward...
All good points but I think the stickler is watching all those loved ones die. Not so much fun, and really does anybody who is not a soulless vamp want to live forever? And to ANGEL (the rightful owner of Shanshu:lmao🙂 it was more about forgiveness for what he had done, turning human was the icing on the cake.
palabravampiress
Bidet of Evil
Oh my God, we disagree (kind of). Keanoite will be shocked, but I'm about to defend Angel.
I support Spike for the Shanshu prophecy. Everyone knows that by now. That's how I interpreted the prophecy signing away thing. Also, I agree that soulless Spike is the guy I'd choose to save the world and get his humanity back over soulless Angel (otherwise known as Angelus). Spike is the better person. Even without a soul, he grew as a person -- possibly more than Angel did with a soul. Even without a soul, he tried to save the world when Angelus tried to destroy it. Even more than that, I think he has the capacity to forgive himself and take the reward. I don't think Angel will ever forgive himself enough to feel himself worthy of taking the reward. If he ever were to get it, I think he'd turn it down - whether Spike is in the picture or not. So I am feeling you on the Spike's the Shanshu guy thing.
Even so, I don't think a guy who got his nickname by driving railroad spikes through his victims can be said to have tortured, maimed, and scarred to a lesser extent than Angel. Taking into consideration the years that Angel spent drifting after he was cursed with his soul, I'd even say Spike had enough time to even out the body count. Spike learned at Angel's feet. Angel's style was more ballsy and less psychological, but that's all it was: a difference in style. The way I see it, those two are pretty much on par with one another when it comes to the various crimes that they have committed. Any differences were matters of personal taste. If Angel's actions as a soulless vampire take him out of the running for the Shanshu, then Spike's actions must do the same. I don't see Angel as any more guilty than Spike just because Angel played with his food more often than Spike did.
Fortunately, I don't think their crimes take either of them out of the running. The Shanshu is about redemption. It follows, then, that Shanshu boy has done some awful things for which he must need to be redeemed. They've both taken great strides. They both deserve it. I might argue for one candidate over the other because I think one deserves it more, but you'll never see me argue that Angel doesn't deserve it at all. Actually, I really like to watch them fight with one another and try to out-good each other, so I kind of hope it isn't decided for a long, long time. I think they were both really bad guys. Now, they're really good guys. I could settle for seeing either one of them redeemed.
I just hope that whoever gets the Shanshu doesn't also get Buffy. If Spike Shanshus, then I want Angel with Buffy (and curse free). If Angel Shanshus, then I was Spike with Buffy (which would be as good as a Shanshu to him, anyway). Ultimately, I want both of them to be all redeemed and happy.
Kean
*THUD* thats the sound of Kean hitting the floor in shock!:)
Joyce Summers
Mom of a Chocoholic
Us?! Disagree? Non! haha. Though I do have to say I completely understand where you're coming from and yes, I suppose with the origin of the nickname 'Spike' we have to accept he did do the torture and maiming scene, but I supoose what I was saying that Angelus was a lot worse. Even Angel said Spike was second to him in all evilness.
But yes, you're right the Shanshu is all about redemption and both our boys are in deep need of it. I just have a lean towards Spike for the Shanshu because of all he went through to get his soul, and how he fought his own nature to be good for Buffy. I mean I know he had the chip stopping him from biting people, but that didn't make him protect Dawn after Buffy was gone. He did care about her a lot and even says to her 'NO. I'm not leaving you to get hurt again'. He has humanity in him even when soulless unlike Angelus, as stated by The Judge, who has none. So maybe....I think I believe Spike can be redeemed but Angel is beyond redemption....I don't know, the more I talk about this the more I get confused.
But I do agree on the one or the other deal. I don't think it would be fair if the Shanshued vamp, whoever it is, also got the Buffster. Romantic? Yes. Fair?No.
But yes, you're right the Shanshu is all about redemption and both our boys are in deep need of it. I just have a lean towards Spike for the Shanshu because of all he went through to get his soul, and how he fought his own nature to be good for Buffy. I mean I know he had the chip stopping him from biting people, but that didn't make him protect Dawn after Buffy was gone. He did care about her a lot and even says to her 'NO. I'm not leaving you to get hurt again'. He has humanity in him even when soulless unlike Angelus, as stated by The Judge, who has none. So maybe....I think I believe Spike can be redeemed but Angel is beyond redemption....I don't know, the more I talk about this the more I get confused.
But I do agree on the one or the other deal. I don't think it would be fair if the Shanshued vamp, whoever it is, also got the Buffster. Romantic? Yes. Fair?No.
Kana
Soulless human
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2007
- Messages
- 1,305
This isn't a bias but one thing I have to say is that Spike's motivation in Season 2 of Buffy seemed to be Drusilla. Certainly his actions were ambiguous so I'm not sure about his intentions exactly.
In Surprise, he seemed impatient to destroy the world whereas Angelus barely seemed interested. Then we have becoming when Angelus wants to detroy the world and Spike crosses him.
I'd say in both cases it was about Dru. I get the impression that Dru was the impetus behind the Judge and Angel seems to think so too.
Angel: She's crazy enough to do it.
It a case of "pleasing the girl" something Spike likes to do.
In Becoming he wants to get Dru away from Angelus so he enlists Buffy's help to do it, I doubt it has much to do with saving the world as when he gets what he wants he buggers off. Even though he thought Buffy was going to die and the world was going to end. Spike wasn't bothered. Not saying that makes him less noble overall, just wanted to clarify that.
I don't think Spike was anywhere as sadistic as Angelus but I think he most likely did torture people, he seemed pretty skilled at it. I shudder to think what he did to girls Dawn's age.
In Surprise, he seemed impatient to destroy the world whereas Angelus barely seemed interested. Then we have becoming when Angelus wants to detroy the world and Spike crosses him.
I'd say in both cases it was about Dru. I get the impression that Dru was the impetus behind the Judge and Angel seems to think so too.
Angel: She's crazy enough to do it.
It a case of "pleasing the girl" something Spike likes to do.
In Becoming he wants to get Dru away from Angelus so he enlists Buffy's help to do it, I doubt it has much to do with saving the world as when he gets what he wants he buggers off. Even though he thought Buffy was going to die and the world was going to end. Spike wasn't bothered. Not saying that makes him less noble overall, just wanted to clarify that.
I don't think Spike was anywhere as sadistic as Angelus but I think he most likely did torture people, he seemed pretty skilled at it. I shudder to think what he did to girls Dawn's age.
Angel's vision
Silence! I Keel you!
Because redemption does not have limits as to how far you stoop in order to need it that's why.
Spike as Palabravampiress pionted out wasn't any less guilty then Angel.