J
Shanshu, who?
- Thread starter Kana
- Start date
palabravampiress
Bidet of Evil
Spike didn't do it just to get with Buffy.
He did it "to be the kind of man who would never...." He had done wrong. He was horrified by what he'd almost done to someone that he loved. He wanted the thing - the spark - that would make him more man than monster, the thing that would give him pause and make him default to good rather than evil. That, to me, constitutes an earnest desire to do good, not just the desire to get in good with a girl.
I'm not saying that makes him any more or less worthy than Angel. I'm just saying that part of the equation deserves way more consideration than people are giving it in these last few posts.
He did it "to be the kind of man who would never...." He had done wrong. He was horrified by what he'd almost done to someone that he loved. He wanted the thing - the spark - that would make him more man than monster, the thing that would give him pause and make him default to good rather than evil. That, to me, constitutes an earnest desire to do good, not just the desire to get in good with a girl.
I'm not saying that makes him any more or less worthy than Angel. I'm just saying that part of the equation deserves way more consideration than people are giving it in these last few posts.
thegifting
I think in 3D
Nooooo, everybody knows that a vampire without a soul is incapable of love, silly. He may have had opinions one way or another, but for him to chose good or evil was simply a product of him weighing the pros and cons of his desires- not some true, good, genuine emotion coming in to play.
palabravampiress
Bidet of Evil
I disagree.
Didn't the Judge say that Spike and Dru were contaminated with the stink of humanity because they loved as humans do?
thegifting
I think in 3D
I cannot confirm or deny that, but they did "love" as humans do- physically, mentally, with words and gestures. I think the being sweet thing is what would be in question there, not that they have human emotions.
Tranquillity
That'll put marzipan in your pie plate bingo
acctually, if you watch Why We Fight real close you'll see that Angel goes on the sub not to so much help the sailors as he does to rescue Spike, who he knows is on the ship, well that's always been my interpretation anyway... Angel's history of helping others was pretty sketchy prior to meeting whistler, yeah he rescues the dog and he tried to help the girl in the hotel but he acctually spent a lot of time sitting around and brooding about his past. But when he was called forth to action by Whistler he responded becasue he wanted to be a better man. Angel does good, is good because he wants to make up for his heineous past. Angel is good and deserves the Shanshu.
Spike also has a heinious past, was chipped involuntarily and was forced into changing his ways. It was a case of adapt or die. He became kinda good (when it suited him) At first it was opportunism, later he had the other motives of Buffy and Dawn. He went to get his soul, not to 'get into a girls pant' as Angel crudely puts it (because, well, he already did that) - he went to get the soul because he was sick of being nothing and as Palavampiress said - "so he could be the kind of man who would never..., so he could be a kind of man". In short, he wanted to be a better man. Spike says he's not worried so much about atonement and redemption but he does worry about what he does in the 'now' and apart from under the influence of the first, we don't see him conflicted about doing right or wrong. Spike is good and deserves the Shanshu.
I read somewhere a theory that likened Spike and Angel to some mythic greek twins who lived part time as human and part time as divine - so this theory was that Spike and Angel would share the Shanshu somehow.
Me? I want neither to get it - they're comic book heroes now - they need to be superpowered not human.
thegifting
I think in 3D
That's terrible to me. I want Angel's story to end as some point, properly and with dignity. Not now- it's going to take time to put a real cohesion to things, finality to affairs. But seriously, if I'm still following Angel in 16 years with no end in sight, I'm going to murder Joss and then commit suicide.
palabravampiress
Bidet of Evil
Really? You've already been following him for ten years.
As a soap fan, I've gotta say... I like open-ended stories the best. I'm sad when books and movies and traditional TV series end. To me, the best possible outcome would be for Buffy and Angel to continue indefinitely.
That said, I also like the idea of them splitting the Shanshu somehow. I think that would be most fair. I mean, I think they both deserve it. I want them both to win. If one wins, I'll feel sorry for the other.
(But I'm still pulling for Spike just a little bit more than Angel... especially after last night's nightmare in which Angel tried to kill me.)
Tranquillity
That'll put marzipan in your pie plate bingo
I didn't say i didn't want an end - i just don't neccessarily want it to involve the shanshu and one or the other becoming human.
The Judge did say something to that nature about Dru and Spike, I think he was annoyed by it too lol, but yea he did say they shared too much human emotions together, more or less. Spike had his desires, he was obsessed with Buffy, perhaps getting the soul was a way for him to try to control those obsessions that nearly made him destroy her.
TheHeartist
The BB poster with a soul
Are we ignoring the fact that
Plus, I've always thought it would be cool (not to mention SO something Joss would do) if the vampire with a soul in question has to CHOOSE between Buffy and being Shanshued. Decisions eh?
Angel is already human now? Wouldn't this technically make Spike the only vampire with a soul, thus the only one eligable for the prophecy?
Plus, I've always thought it would be cool (not to mention SO something Joss would do) if the vampire with a soul in question has to CHOOSE between Buffy and being Shanshued. Decisions eh?
palabravampiress
Bidet of Evil
^ That does put a new spin on things. The vamp in question there said he didn't believe it was the Shanshu, but that's really all we have to go on. Maybe it is the Shanshu and this question has already been decided for us in the comics. What do you think?
TheHeartist
The BB poster with a soul
It's a interesting way for both to become human, because as many people have already stated, they both deserve it
Taking a completely out-of-the-verse perspective here, I don't think it makes much sense for Spike to get the Shanshu. I don't think it makes a great deal of sense for his character's arc to get it, when becoming human was never expressed as a desire by his character or a point of his character's evolution. It'd feel like it came out of completely left field if he became human.
Angel's wanted to be human from very early on. At least textually from as early on as 'I Will Remember You' and there's a valid argument in saying before that, probably around 'The Prom.' A big tragedy for his character is that he couldn't give Buffy the life she deserved because of his circumstances, it'd make sense he'd have seriously started wishing he was human ever since he began a relationship with her. It's also a dream Buffy shared for Angel to, as she states to him in 'I Will Remember You.'
And the Shanshu has been a part of Angel's entire serial arc for the five seasons of his own show. To give it to Spike in the end would be incredibly cruel. There's a fine line between putting a character through some sh#t and then just needlessly dragging him through the dirt, and I think that's all they'd achieve here.
The writers in the 'Destiny' commentary stated that it was originally intended for Angel to win the fight against Spike in that episode. However, they changed their mind, using the term 'TV Justice' to describe their opinion that Spike had to win, after the flashbacks of him being humiliated by Angelus throughout the course of that episode. IMO, it's 'TV Justice' that Angel is the one who achieves the Shanshu, it's been a part of his character for so long and makes not much sense narratively to give it to Spike when it came so out of left field and really, mainly only because Angel wanted it in the first place.
From a creative and narrative stand point I can't see any reasons why I'd prefer Spike to get the Shanshu over Angel, it's always been a part of his journeys and was never an issue in Spikes. In all honesty, though a probably very provocative opinion, I think it'd be more "˜fan service' than logical to give it to Spike. Ever since Spike came onto Ats there's been a perception held by many that Angel and Spike should always now be on "˜equal footing.' If Angel gets the Shanshu, it's only fair if Spike gets it, they must always be equal, even if it was never a part of Spike's arc.
And that doesn't make sense to me.
I also have some in-verse reasons as to why I think Angel is the vampire the prophecy speaks of, and I've talked about them with Kana before, I'll post them on another day 🙂
Angel's wanted to be human from very early on. At least textually from as early on as 'I Will Remember You' and there's a valid argument in saying before that, probably around 'The Prom.' A big tragedy for his character is that he couldn't give Buffy the life she deserved because of his circumstances, it'd make sense he'd have seriously started wishing he was human ever since he began a relationship with her. It's also a dream Buffy shared for Angel to, as she states to him in 'I Will Remember You.'
And the Shanshu has been a part of Angel's entire serial arc for the five seasons of his own show. To give it to Spike in the end would be incredibly cruel. There's a fine line between putting a character through some sh#t and then just needlessly dragging him through the dirt, and I think that's all they'd achieve here.
The writers in the 'Destiny' commentary stated that it was originally intended for Angel to win the fight against Spike in that episode. However, they changed their mind, using the term 'TV Justice' to describe their opinion that Spike had to win, after the flashbacks of him being humiliated by Angelus throughout the course of that episode. IMO, it's 'TV Justice' that Angel is the one who achieves the Shanshu, it's been a part of his character for so long and makes not much sense narratively to give it to Spike when it came so out of left field and really, mainly only because Angel wanted it in the first place.
From a creative and narrative stand point I can't see any reasons why I'd prefer Spike to get the Shanshu over Angel, it's always been a part of his journeys and was never an issue in Spikes. In all honesty, though a probably very provocative opinion, I think it'd be more "˜fan service' than logical to give it to Spike. Ever since Spike came onto Ats there's been a perception held by many that Angel and Spike should always now be on "˜equal footing.' If Angel gets the Shanshu, it's only fair if Spike gets it, they must always be equal, even if it was never a part of Spike's arc.
And that doesn't make sense to me.
I also have some in-verse reasons as to why I think Angel is the vampire the prophecy speaks of, and I've talked about them with Kana before, I'll post them on another day 🙂