Shanshu

LostBeloved

Townie
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Messages
30
Age
40
Location
HellMouth. A.K.A NYC
Okay I gotta say this because its been bugging me for tooooo long. Why they hell was Angel so happy to hear about the Shanshu prphecy when he couldve made himself human at any time? Im sure he couldve found a Mohra Demon and did the transformation without having to wait hundred of plus years or however long it wouldve took.
 
I've always asked myself. There's magic in that verse. Couldn't they find a spell to turn vampires into humans?
 
Mainly because at the time that "I Will Remember You" was made, the writers hadn't come up with the idea of a Shanshu Prophecy, just like, until they decided to use it as a plot device, the "one moment of true happiness" clause wasn't part of the curse that gave Angel his soul. Basically, it's Joss and his writers saying, "The fans will never notice," and charging right along with all of their inconsistencies and downright screw ups.
 
I wondered that for years, and I think I finally got it. He wanted to earn it.

In Orpehus, I think he tells Faith that their number is never up. They can never repay for what they did, there will never be a time when it's over. Angel thought that one day, he would save enough people, thus be forgiven or redeemed, whatever, and deserve to become human and get a new start. He didn't think he had earned it in I Will Always Remember You. Later on, for example in Orpheus, it seemed like he'd just given up, didn't think it would ever happen, that he could ever repay. He had the same attitude in season 5. But he seemed sad to sign the propechy away to the senior partners.

That was one of the things that made it weird to read his/Twilight BS in Last Gleaming, saying that he deserved paradise. I mean, I think he also said in Aftermath that now he was "done". He thought he had gotten his redemption. But I assumed that would be ignored in the Buffy comics.

Now we seem back on the "I need redemption" track in season 9, because he did new wrongs.

Personally, I think he needs to redeem for what he did without a soul. It's the stuff he did on the show he needs to pay for, when he had a soul. The memorywiping, acting like a jerk towards Spike in seasin 5, never giving him a chance, killing the demon slave. Those are things he needs to pay for. But only with regret. To me, regret is all that's needed to get redemption. But I also do get how it would be hard, maybe impossible, for someone to forgive themselves for killing people, soul or no soul.

Which brings me back to the weirdness that was Twangel. That Angel seemed like he accepted his past completely. I really wish we had been told Twilight had been half possessing Angel for months, not that it was just the Glow working for the moment. Sems like something that should have been said in the same season, not the next one, so we could figure him out sooner.
 
Last edited:
nightshade
nightshade
[No message]
Wesley Pryce
Wesley Pryce
[No message]
It seems to be about finally cleansing himself of all his guilt, achieving moral perfection. If the Shanshu Prophecy came true, that's what it would mean to Angel. So of course, that kind of moral perfection couldn't be achieved by bathing in demon's blood. That would indeed eliminate the vampire evil in Angel, but it's like he said in Amends: "It's not the monster in me that needs killing. It's the man." Angel may believe that the redemption of the Shanshu will mean that he has finally conquered the evil in his human side, as well as the vampire.
 
X
xfivebyfive
this is why I should read all the posts first. Completely agree!
I think the same, that he wanted to earn it and earn his redemption. Btw, I loved this episode! I loved his compassion for Cordelia and Wesley and how he stopped at nothing to make sure they were okay.
 
Wesley Pryce
Wesley Pryce
[No message]
I think its because Angel didnt feel he deserved to be human, that he still had so many people to help, so much to atone for. But the Shanshu, its a reward. If and when he gets to be human it will because he has earned it. He has fought all the battles he's supposed to, saved the people he's supposed to save. In a way it's like he finally atoned for his crimes if he fulfilled this prophecy.
 
Its definately that he felt he wanted to earn it. I think thats fairly obvious from the show. When he meets Buffy originally he has no purpose, he doesnt know what to do, but he instantly loves her and wants to protect her, and make the world a better place. As much as his character evolves, he never really veers far from this end goal. He doesnt feel like the jobs done in 'I will remember you', if the world isnt a safe place for Buffy then no way is he going to meekly wait at home while she fights monsters. The Shanshu prophecy gives him hope that when he has done ALL he can do he will be rewarded with his humanity and a chance with Buffy, but until he has done everything he can do to rid the world of evil then he doesnt want it. This also explains why he just drops to his knees in pain when he goes down the lift to 'a place where there is evil in every living thing' and its just LA, it shows the momentousness of his task.

---------- Post added at 01:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:26 PM ----------

Also in the Gem of Amara one he tells Doyle he needs to earn it. 🙂
 
crazysoulless
crazysoulless
[No message]
Wesley Pryce
Wesley Pryce
[No message]
Because that's not Angel. That's not what his character has ever been about. There have been many, many times when Angel had the opportunity to take the easy way out, and times when we would have forgiven him for it. Who didn't want to see him finally be at peace in "I will remember you"? He's one of the most tortured heroes of all time.

If becoming human was all that mattered to Angel, he never would have demanded the Oracles change him back. But that's not him. Like others have said, he needed to earn it. The entire theme of the Angel series, "Let's go to work", is that the fight is never over. There's always going to be another battle, another war to fight, but at the end of it all, fighting the good fight is what truly matters. But I think the Shanshu Prophecy was there for him to act as a light at the end of the proverbial tunnel. In his darkest moments, he could look to that and see that an end to everything (and, I'm presuming, a future with Buffy) was possible.

Angel didn't know about the prophecy when he gave up his humanity in "I will remember you". He did it because he believed Buffy would have died otherwise. That doesn't mean that that scenario wasn't his dream though. Getting back to that, I think he wants that more than anything in the world. But only when the fight is over, when the work is done.
 
crazysoulless
crazysoulless
[No message]
If his past performance is any sort of indication, Angel will never "earn" the slightest degree of actual redemption, because just as soon as he builds up 5 points in his favor, he screws up and winds up losing 10. The Shanshu Prophecy is nothing but a torture device created by Wolfram & Hart, something to distract Angel and keep him from noticing that they have, little by little, week by week, seduced him over to their side, which is exactly where he wound up at the beginning of Season 5, and he's been working for the bad guys to some extent, whether it be the Senior Partners, Twilight, or some other version of Evil Incarnate, ever since. The saddest part of the whole thing is that they actually have him believing that he's acting of his own free will rather than being manipulated almost completely.
 
crazysoulless
crazysoulless
[No message]
It's not just about the result of being turned human; Shanshu is an indication of the journey Angel has undertook to achieve redemption, a reward from the PTB, a solid sign that he has indeed been forgiven. It's not about the result. It's about what the result means. You could just as easily say Angel would get a pair of new shoes to symbolize his redemption.
 
If his past performance is any sort of indication, Angel will never "earn" the slightest degree of actual redemption, because just as soon as he builds up 5 points in his favor, he screws up and winds up losing 10. The Shanshu Prophecy is nothing but a torture device created by Wolfram & Hart, something to distract Angel and keep him from noticing that they have, little by little, week by week, seduced him over to their side, which is exactly where he wound up at the beginning of Season 5, and he's been working for the bad guys to some extent, whether it be the Senior Partners, Twilight, or some other version of Evil Incarnate, ever since. The saddest part of the whole thing is that they actually have him believing that he's acting of his own free will rather than being manipulated almost completely.

The first part of what you said, "just as soon as he builds up 5 points in his favor", is kind of the whole point. With Angel it's never been about keeping score or "proving" his redemption to anyone. That's what his entire first season arc with Faith was about.

I've yet to read the comics, but I never really read the Shanshu Prophecy as a creation of Wolfram & Hart. I know they were in possession of the physical copy of it, but I always though it was originally designed by the Powers. I mean, why would W&H want him to even see that? It was my understand that they wanted him to lose hope and give in to his dark side. The Shanshu gives him hope.
 
I agree,not only would wolfram and hart not create the shanshu prophecy,but they were obviously pissed when angel stole it. And the scroll contained far more than just the Shanshu prophecy it also contained the exact spell needed to resurrect Darla.
 
I agree,not only would wolfram and hart not create the shanshu prophecy,but they were obviously pissed when angel stole it. And the scroll contained far more than just the Shanshu prophecy it also contained the exact spell needed to resurrect Darla.

W&H would have created the prophecy if they were going to use it as a temptation to make Angel fight on their side in the final apocalypse, which is pretty much what the original President of the company told Angel when he came back from the dead (I can't remember season or episode, but maybe someone else here will. He told Angel that he would earn the Shanshu by helping THEM, not the good guys, win the last battle.

Was he lying? Maybe. Maybe not. But if Angel wants his humanity badly enough, there might come a time when he would be seduced over to their cause, the same as he was with Twilight. Once the bad guys won, they could walk away laughing, leaving Angel, whether human or still vampire, with the sure knowledge that he had screwed up once again, and that it was too late to do anything about it.
 
i respectfully disagree,but i suppose it is a possibility. And to your question about which episode and season :season 2 episode 15(i think)🙂
 
Something that hasn't been mentioned here is that when Angel bargained with the Powers to reverse time, he had no idea that the Shanshu existed. As far as he knew, the one and only way that he would ever be human was exactly the way that it happened. There was no thought by him of "earning" his humanity, because he never knew that any such prize existed. If he had any believable motives whatsoever, it was his belief (false, as it turned out) that by giving up his humanity, he would somehow keep Buffy from being killed. Unfortunately, the Powers neglected to tell him that she would die just as surely protecting another human, her sister, anyhow.

My point is, Angel didn't give up his humanity because he wanted to earn it on merit rather than receive it by accident, because he had no idea that such a thing might be possible. He struck a bargain that he thought would save Buffy, and the Powers conveniently neglected to tell him that she was gonna die anyhow.
 
W&H would have created the prophecy if they were going to use it as a temptation to make Angel fight on their side in the final apocalypse, which is pretty much what the original President of the company told Angel when he came back from the dead (I can't remember season or episode, but maybe someone else here will. He told Angel that he would earn the Shanshu by helping THEM, not the good guys, win the last battle.
W&H didn't make the prophecy, a prophecy isn't made unless you mean they physically wrote it down as a fake out.
Which I dont think is true cuz firstly they would have made it clear he'd need to fight on the side of evil and secondly the shanshu actually exists, it's not just written on that piece of paper.
The shanshu says that he plays a part in the battle, but doesn't day which side. It's implied in the show that even W&H dont know, which is why they try and tun him, more likely to have Angelus on their side.

Was he lying? Maybe. Maybe not. But if Angel wants his humanity badly enough, there might come a time when he would be seduced over to their cause, the same as he was with Twilight.

No, that just shows that you dont know Angels character at all. In the comics Wesley gives Angel a vision, from W&H, of how the shanshu will be received and it's of Angel on the side of Evil, Angel is so distraught at that he contemplates death so it will never happen, but higher power Cordy and Connor save him and reassure him that he'd never let that happen.

That is not the same situation as Twilight at all, Twilight is a lot more complicated then it's surface value of Angel going evil. Firstly he was approached by someone he trusted Whistler, who had been responsible for the biggest turning point in Angels life and turned him to the path he was on. Whistler says that in all possible futures him working with Buffy results in them dying, and offers an alternative plan to work from the inside for the anti-slayer movement and control the damage they can do, while helping Buffy get to her goal.
Of course he should have told Buffy about it first, but I can't fault Angel for taking Whistler at his word after everything they'd been through, and working from the inside to minimise the same they do is a solid plan, when he doesn't know the damage they are going to do and sometime after taking up that mantle we know Twilight started to change him, cloud his judgement (not my opinion, or excuse - fact)

Saying Angel could be seduced for his humanity is so far from what the character is about, his mantra with the Shanshu is just to keep doing good, he has no idea how much good he has to do, it's not a math equation, but he knows he has to keep doing good. He even signs away the Shanshu (as far as he thought), and even his logic behind the early stages if Twilight are still for doing good.

Thats why I think he puts importance on the shanshu when there were options like the Morah demon. He started out doing good for pure redemption, no reward, but being given a purpose and something to work towards makes his mission easier for him to deal with and process.

Aside from that, there is huge difference between being made human by the morah demon and the Shanshu, firstly cuz he'll have earned it, secondly cuz it takes place after THE apocalypse. If angel had stayed human, there is still a huge amount of evil out there, Buffy would be in danger, he couldn't help in the same way. Whereas if they averted THE apocalypse, presumably evil would take a major hit, things would be safer, there's more of a chance he could settle down with Buffy, or if THE apocalypse took place in 200 years, Buffy would be dead and it wouldn't matter and he'd still want it becasue becoming human wasn't about Buffy, it's something he wants for himself, but something he wants to earn for himself.
 
Back
Top Bottom