"She Will Die Protecting..."

[white avenger]

(I'm not sure whether this belongs here or in "Inside/Out," so I flipped a coin and "Season 1" came up heads)


Something that I have been thinking about lately...

Okay, everybody knows how much I loved the episode, "I Will Remember You," and admire Angel for making the terrible sacrifice that he made because of his great love for the only girl in the world who he just HAS to be with in the end. But this occurred to me recently. Angel gave up his humanity, (out of pure love and nobility, let me point out) because the Oracles told him that, if he remained human, Buffy would die protecting him within a year. The next year, the season finale of Buffy's own show has her dying protecting another human, her sister, Dawn, after being told by the First Slayer that "Death was her gift." Doesn't this look suspiciously like Buffy was fated to die the next year protecting a human loved one, whether it be a humanized ex-vampire or a humanized ex-ball og green light (the key)? If that really was the case, then Angel's decision, made sincerely for Buffy's own good, was actually a totally futile and wasteful gesture, based on what was, at best, a half truth told by the Oracles.

Day 4. 26 more days to go.

Greater love hath no man than that he would give up his Spuffy for a friend.

 

[Kean]

We really are so lucky to have Bangel's of such calibre on these boards 🙂

Ok, back to reality. What are you actually asking here?

 

[ubi4soft]

If that really was the case, then Angel's decision, made sincerely for Buffy's own good, was actually a totally futile and wasteful gesture, based on what was, at best, a half truth told by the Oracles.

In fact, it was so intended by the Oracles, because the female one was clearly influenced by Jasmine who needed a vampire with a soul to father Connor.

 

[white avenger]

We really are so lucky to have Bangel's of such calibre on these boards 🙂

Ok, back to reality. What are you actually asking here?

"Doesn't this look suspiciously like Buffy was fated to die the next year protecting a human loved one, whether it be a humanized ex-vampire or a humanized ex-ball og green light (the key)?"



The Question:

Did the Oracles purposely mislead Angel into believing that he could somehow change Buffy's fate (to die protecting a loved one)?

( If so, it would appear that they fooled him into renouncing his humanity, and even thinking that it was his idea. Maybe the Powers and their servants aren't the good guys that they have been depicted as being.)

And we won't be "back to reality" for 26 more days, Miss K.

Day 4. 26 more days to go.

Greater love hath no man than that he would give up his Spuffy for a friend.

 

[Kean]

"Doesn't this look suspiciously like Buffy was fated to die the next year protecting a human loved one, whether it be a humanized ex-vampire or a humanized ex-ball og green light (the key)?"



The Question:

Did the Oracles purposely mislead Angel into believing that he could somehow change Buffy's fate (to die protecting a loved one)?

( If so, it would appear that they fooled him into renouncing his humanity, and even thinking that it was his idea. Maybe the Powers and their servants aren't the good guys that they have been depicted as being.)

And we won't be "back to reality" for 26 more days, Miss K.

Day 4. 26 more days to go.

Greater love hath no man than that he would give up his Spuffy for a friend.

I think Buffy was always going to die but I also think that Buffy and Angel both knew that they were warriors and had a different path, one that they couldn't walk together.

I don't really think the Oracles were evil, or purposefully led Angel astray. They just gave him a choice.

I'm going to post a fic by Vatrixsta Cruden. She wrote for this years IWRY Fic Marathon (which just ended this week) over at Octaves of the Heart. She describes the nature of choice and the possibilities far better than I ever could. It's PG-13.

This fic deals directly with this question, with choice and what could have happened it Buffy and Angel had chosen differently. It's just a glimpse though. Even if you're aren't Bangel, give it a read...it concerns all the characters.

Built to Last

 

[Lyri]

I think it's clear that, looking back now, that the Oracles were influenced, or were helping, Jasmine. As ubi4soft pointed out, Jasmine needed Angel to father Connor, who in turn fathered her. If Angel stayed human, and stayed with Buffy, there was no way that was going to happen.

We've known since the end of Season 3 of BTVS that Buffy would die within two years, regardless of who she was trying to protect, so by informing Angel of this, and allowing him to think that it was Angel she would die to save, the Oracles were able to get him back on the undead list, and therefore, Jasmine's plan was set back on track.

 

[white avenger]

I think Buffy was always going to die but I also think that Buffy and Angel both knew that they were warriors and had a different path, one that they couldn't walk together.

I don't really think the Oracles were evil, or purposefully led Angel astray. They just gave him a choice.

I'm going to post a fic by Vatrixsta Cruden. She wrote for this years IWRY Fic Marathon (which just ended this week) over at Octaves of the Heart. She describes the nature of choice and the possibilities far better than I ever could. It's PG-13.

This fic deals directly with this question, with choice and what could have happened it Buffy and Angel had chosen differently. It's just a glimpse though. Even if you're aren't Bangel, give it a read...it concerns all the characters.

Built to Last

Nice story. The parallel realities, each just a bit different from the others is always interesting in its limitless possibilities. But a dog names STAKE? That's just too much to grasp. It's almost as bad as Spike having a daughter named Peg.

Day 4. 26 more days to go.

Greater love hath no man than that he would give up his Spuffy for a friend.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

You all have gret points.

In fact, it was so intended by the Oracles, because the female one was clearly influenced by Jasmine who needed a vampire with a soul to father Connor.

This seems plausible. Skip did that that every event in Angels' life had been pre-determined, all in order to bring about the birth of Jasmine.

I like Lyri's idea about the Oracles helping Jasmine out. That would explain why they told Angel that if he stayed human Buffy would die protecting him.

 

[Kean]

You all have gret points.


This seems plausible. Skip did that that every event in Angels' life had been pre-determined, all in order to bring about the birth of Jasmine.

I like Lyri's idea about the Oracles helping Jasmine out. That would explain why they told Angel that if he stayed human Buffy would die protecting him.

For reasons I can't even articulate, I hate this. That Everything that happened in Angel's life had already been decided for him, that he was just a pawn. It leaves me feeling incredibly sad 🙁

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

For reasons I can't even articulate, I hate this. That Everything that happened in Angel's life had already been decided for him, that he was just a pawn. It leaves me feeling incredibly sad 🙁

I agree, completely. I was so shocked when I heard that, the initial time I watched the series. It really makes us wonder if we really have free will, you know?

 

[Kean]

I agree, completely. I was so shocked when I heard that, the initial time I watched the series. It really makes us wonder if we really have free will, you know?

Yeah. I just feel that every choice you make determines who you are and so if all of Angel's choices had been made for him, well the questions of "Who is he? Is he anyone?" arises.

Also, what of those in his life? Are they pawns too?

This train of thought depresses me.

 

[white avenger]

the questions of "Who is he? Is he anyone?" arises.


This train of thought depresses me.

If the train depresses you, then get back on the ship, Miss K.

"Who is he?" He's the first real love that Buffy ever had. He's the man who taught her that, even when it hurts, the mission has to come first.

"Is he anyone?" He's a champion, dedicated to defending those who can't defend themselves. He certainly isn't unique in that, but it is still who and what he is, and if he never is anything else, then that's still enough.

I don't have to lose a bet to see that.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

There could be a series of books called "What you thought happened in Buffy & Angel, what we wanted you to believe, how we changed the meaning of some events to fit new plots, and other confusing and ambigious things you've probably discussed endlessly on message boards trying to figure out".

It's so frustrating, not knowing how involved Jasmine has been all along. Did the first bring back Angel to be Jasmine's grand father? So she could eat everyone on earth and the First would have a esier time destroying the world? How do the powers that be fit into this?

I think the thought that the oracle's might have told a half truth, intentional or not, about how Buffy would die, is very interesting. In which scene was he told that she'd die within a year?

In fact, it was so intended by the Oracles, because the female one was clearly influenced by Jasmine who needed a vampire with a soul to father Connor.

She was?

We've known since the end of Season 3 of BTVS that Buffy would die within two years, regardless of who she was trying to protect, so by informing Angel of this, and allowing him to think that it was Angel she would die to save, the Oracles were able to get him back on the undead list, and therefore, Jasmine's plan was set back on track.

We did?

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I don't think it was wasteful. In that episode Angel showed us something about himself. He showed us how much he still cares about her, they are miles and miles apart but he would still do anything to help her, and he did the right thing. He was scared. He was scared she is going to die because of him. He thought she is going to die protecting him. And what kind of life is that? Wondering everyday is you're beloved one going to die saving you.. or someone else. And all the people he saved, that was his purpose. And he couldn't do that without his strenght and vamp powers. Everything they ever wanted is to have a normal life, but I think they can't handle normality. Not after all they've saw and did. So I wouldn't say that was wasteful, he did that because in that moment he belived that is the right thing to do.. he knew Buffy is going to die someday, but I think he didn't wanted to be responisible for it. He didn't wanted for her to die because of his selfish reasons. She died because she is hero. She died protecting the others.. and he threw away their life together because of the others.. when she died, part of him died too, and I don't know how many parts of him died because of her words and actions, I can only guess.

 

[Lyri]

We've known since the end of Season 3 of BTVS that Buffy would die within two years, regardless of who she was trying to protect, so by informing Angel of this, and allowing him to think that it was Angel she would die to save, the Oracles were able to get him back on the undead list, and therefore, Jasmine's plan was set back on track.

We did?

Yeah, 'Gradutation Day PT2' during their dream, Faith refers to 'Little Miss Muffet' counting down from 730. It's been established since then that 730 is the exact number of days in two years, and we've found out that it was a reference to 'The Gift' and the fact that Buffy will be dead in two years. So it didn't matter if Angel stayed human or not, Buffy was going to die anyway.

Lindsey McDonald agrees: Haha, I love how your answer is totally "So we could have Connor. Cause we need Connor. CONNOR!"

Dammit, I thought I was being subtle! *pouts*

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I thought it was 730 days to the episode where Dawn showed up. Huh.

 

[Kean]

The 730 comment was about The Gift but in season 4 in This Year's Girl in a continuation of that dream walk they have this exchange...

Buffy: I wish I could stay, but...

Faith: Oh, you have to go.

Buffy: That's just what...

Faith: Little sis coming. I know.

Buffy: So much to do before she gets here.


That was the Dawn reference.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

"Doesn't this look suspiciously like Buffy was fated to die the next year protecting a human loved one, whether it be a humanized ex-vampire or a humanized ex-ball og green light (the key)?"



The Question:

Did the Oracles purposely mislead Angel into believing that he could somehow change Buffy's fate (to die protecting a loved one)?

( If so, it would appear that they fooled him into renouncing his humanity, and even thinking that it was his idea. Maybe the Powers and their servants aren't the good guys that they have been depicted as being.)

Even if Angel had chosen to remain human, he would have become the "vampire with a soul" once again eventually.

Several major events have been fated to happen in the Buffyverse and only a couple have taken place:

1.) Angel would have a son who will kill Sahjahn (Niazian Prophecy).
DONE

2.) The progeny of the Master will raise an Old One (Aurelian Prophecy).
DONE, Angel (Grand-sired) and Spike (Great-Great-Grand-Sired) fostered the resurrection of Illyria.

3.) Angel will have his humanity restored after playing a pivotal role in the Apocalypse (Shanshu Prophecy).
NOT YET in the mainstream time line.

4.) Buffy will drive all of the Big Bads out of Earth (Urkkon's future recall).
NOT YET.

The first two were accomplished against all odds. It didn't look like the Master's clan would be raising an Old One after Buffy killed him, Angel killed Darla and Spike killed the Anointed. But years later Angel & Spike fostered Illyria's rise as undoing it would cost thousands of lives. This coincided with both one of Illyria's prophecies and the Master's.

It didn't look like Connor would be killing Sahjhan since he got sent to hell as a baby and then Angel wiped his training out of his memories, but it still happened.

It didn't look like the Shanshu prophecy would be fulfilled as Angel was sent to hell twice (by Buffy then W&H) and killed thrice (by Illyria, Gunn & Anya). But higher powers will (the First, W&H, TPTB, etc.) continue to bend the rules for him until he can fulfill the prophecy.

And It didn't look like Buffy would fulfill Urkonn's recap, since she died three times (by the Master, Anya & Glory), but higher powers will keep bending the rules for her until she fulfills it.

So even if Angel chose humanity for himself, a higher power would have eventually jumped in to put Angel back on his path for their own reasons.

 

[Kana]

As Kean said, Angel's argument wasn't just about Buffy, it was about being a Warrior for the cause which perhaps was the Powers' primary concern. The Oracles never said directly that Angel would be able to save Buffy but were impressed by his intention. The other theory I heard is that it was a test. If Angel chose the remain human and try to be Buffy's boyfriend then he's not the champion they thought he was. He chose to sacrifice human happiness to be a warrior, proving to Powers, he's the real deal. In any respect I still believe their main intention was the have Angel as a superhuman Champion, simply because he's more use to them.

I keep hearing of theories that this player is in league with that player. It's possible but it could be like Fred said: All the players merely play their part whether they are intentionally in league with the other players or not. Technically Sahjhan and The Gypsies played their part in Jasmine's arrival but they were not in league with other, as far as we know. None of these things (as some of you have already said) negates Angel's intention. Even if it was in vain, he was still willing to sacrifice his own happiness for the well being of another. Even if were part of the plan to bring Connor/Jasmine to the world, he doesn't take away Angel's selflessness.