Shipping Wars...Shipping Wars Never Change
- Thread starter Nikkolas
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thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Sorry, I just find it incredibly odd to describe anything about Riley's 'pursuit' of Buffy as ruthless. He was so gosh darm respectful in his circumspection I found it a tad unrealistic and staid; he courted her, gave her lots of space and even respected Buffy's 'actually hell no' in 'Doomed' and walked away.
I just can't put that on any spectrum that also has 'creepy burglar/ underwear sniffer' on it.
Anyway, I'll leave it because way off-topic. This is about shippers, not characters actions.
I don’t know what it is about shipping, but it always seems to start some sort of discussion about why one choice has to be objectively worse than the other.
Building an argument or opinion off of tearing down somebody else’s is no way to go about life. I think your post was spot-on @FluffyPuppy
He said to her 'you don't want to be with me because of your issues' but whatever. You're a shipper too or you were, just a non cannon one, and you'll excuse your girl being out of line if it suits you so do NOT pretend that are above shippers especially not Spuffys when you are or were a Fuffy who has similarities to Spuffy whether you see them or not.
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Antho
Scooby
Given the messages I see in this thread, yeah I agree with the title « shipping wars never change » 😀
The problem is whether a shipper or not, canon or non canon shipper like everything else these things can degrade into ab hominem attacks and point scoring. I'm not sure if it's shipping itself which is to blame but some people who push for their ship (or no ships at all) by pushing others down. Do I mean some people? You might think so I couldn't possibly comment.
Antho
Scooby
Each person have their sensibilities. But it’s sure that if each person would take things less to the heart the situation would degenerate less often.
DeepBlueJoy
Lion Faced Kitteh
It is funny - of Buffy's three major relationships, it is Riley that squicks me most.
He had a soul when he did all the things he did so I hold him to a human standard (higher than either soulless Spike or even Angel)
I found him to be a singularly toxic human being. Cruel, mean-spirited and prideful.
Let's take that one most telling act. Riley stabs Spike with a fake stake. I found that to be deeply sadistic. He came with forethought and malice to TORTURE another sentient being. While one MIGHT be able to justify killing Spike, especially when he's a threat, there's NO justification for torturing him (and probably traumatizing him, as he surely expected to die). That was a purely sadistic act to torture someone he viewed as a rival. He actually had to PLAN this act. Either he made the plastic stake himself or he got it from his job (which doesn't say anything good about the Initiative) - either way, it wasn't a spur of the moment act. He didn't pick up a chair leg and discover it was plastic. It wasn't an act of self defense or even a moment of blind rage. That makes him a fairly sociopathic person. Cruel. Sadistic. Calculating. Capable of hurting someone just for his own entertainment. THAT is NOT the behavior of a normal person. In the real world, I would not pair that unrepentant creature with ANYONE.
Then to go back to the beginning... who he worked for. Maggie is a seriously dangerous person and represents the nature of the Initiative. Arguments can be made that he didn't know what he was getting into and it was clear he had some issues with what was going on, mostly after Buffy and company made him think about it. So that might be a point sort of in his favor or maybe neutral? But he did join the unit. Pretty sure you have to volunteer for special services. Also... the disturbing behavior of the unit (running operations on US soil) is likely contrary to law - but that I blame mostly on the writers.
Even if it were legal, the Nazi Germany 'science experiments' are seriously troubling.
He was seriously concerned about the fact he was weaker than Buffy. His pride was absolutely not handling it. We see it when she throws him across the room and we see it when he is resistant to removing the chip even when it became life threatening. This suggests a huge, fragile ego AND a thorough lack of judgment. He simply could not handle being in the shadow of his woman. When he arrives less than a year after leaving, he's already found a replacement... one who he expects to answer to him, though (unless this is not really the US military) his spouse would not legally be in his chain of command. Buffy AND Sam are more appendages, than people. He needs subordinates, not equals. When one doesn't cooperate, he finds one that does. Easy. Peasy. Done!
He arrives back in Sunnydale and rubs Buffy's nose in his life... and seems to delight in showing off his superior life and togetherness at what is her LOWEST ebb. Again with the CRUELTY.
When Buffy needs support when her mother is ill, Riley needs to reassure HIM that HE IS the one... He cares more that she doesn't talk to him, than that she's in pain. He needs her to take care of his feelings when her mother is deathly ill.
When he continues to feel inadequate after Buffy's mum's in hospital he starts cheating on her and then HE BLAMES HER for the fact that he has not only cheated on her, but he has repeatedly PUT HER AND HER FAMILY AND FRIENDS IN MORTAL DANGER. Because he could easily have been turned and showed up and eaten an unsuspecting Dawn and maybe even Xander. If he got a drop on Willow, Tara or Buffy, possibly them too... he could have been a vampire and come in and killed them all in their sleep.
Yet, THIS is the creature who gives a hurting, scared Buffy an ultimatum when the army wants him back. I don't think he was ever not going to leave. If he'd wanted to stay, he'd have talked to her like a human and acted like a PENITENT. He was the guilty party. He'd have made Buffy his priority. Or better yet, he'd have stayed and sorted his relationship and been there for her when her mother died -- and seen if there was a future for them AFTER Buffy's crises (with her mother AND Dawn) were over. Maybe if he'd stayed in Sunnydale, Buffy might not have had to jump! One more person with major fighting skills and military strategy training could have made a huge difference (He would have been an officer as he was college educated - so lots of potential for battle strategy) But he did not think much of Buffy's needs. Only his own. Only his career.
He is a selfish piece of work.
Angel tried to be his best person because of Buffy.
Spike actually went and got his soul because of Buffy.
Riley tried to gaslight Buffy into believing that SHE was to blame for his inadequacy.
Then he came back to Sunnydale to show off with his brand new wife and his 'perfect' life.
No, Riley is a NASTY person. And he doesn't even have a demon living inside him.
Because both Angel and Spike have to fight with a demon inside EVERY DAY, EVERY DECISION. Even with a soul, the demon is still there, still wanting to kill. Both worked to save the world. Spike even does it before he has a soul or makes any pretense for being 'good'. Both fight the good fight over the course of years. Spike sacrifices his life for the planet. (and if you consider only the series canon, so does Angel)
Riley? Riley gets a nice new career with lots of fancy duds and a pretty, hot wife. Riley serves Riley. When he's not serving fascists who cut up sentient beings and try to make super soldiers or implant stuff into them... (including people like Oz, who live their lives not harming others).
Riley is not a lot better than Parker. At least Parker is over quickly.
EDIT: One more thing... this about Buffy. ONLY in her relationship with Riley did she have to make herself smaller. It's NOT just that she had to pretend she wasn't as strong as she was. She had to do that every moment with Riley... not because she was stronger, but because he was NOT cool with it. Xander knew he was weaker than Buffy but never did he ever want her to be less than she was. I don't ship her with Xander, but he was infinitely more accepting of who she was and respected who and what she was more than Riley did. (maybe a bit too much worship, but he did not ever want to make her 'less than'). He never took stupid risks or put himself in harms way to 'prove' his manhood. Riley did.
He had a soul when he did all the things he did so I hold him to a human standard (higher than either soulless Spike or even Angel)
I found him to be a singularly toxic human being. Cruel, mean-spirited and prideful.
Let's take that one most telling act. Riley stabs Spike with a fake stake. I found that to be deeply sadistic. He came with forethought and malice to TORTURE another sentient being. While one MIGHT be able to justify killing Spike, especially when he's a threat, there's NO justification for torturing him (and probably traumatizing him, as he surely expected to die). That was a purely sadistic act to torture someone he viewed as a rival. He actually had to PLAN this act. Either he made the plastic stake himself or he got it from his job (which doesn't say anything good about the Initiative) - either way, it wasn't a spur of the moment act. He didn't pick up a chair leg and discover it was plastic. It wasn't an act of self defense or even a moment of blind rage. That makes him a fairly sociopathic person. Cruel. Sadistic. Calculating. Capable of hurting someone just for his own entertainment. THAT is NOT the behavior of a normal person. In the real world, I would not pair that unrepentant creature with ANYONE.
Then to go back to the beginning... who he worked for. Maggie is a seriously dangerous person and represents the nature of the Initiative. Arguments can be made that he didn't know what he was getting into and it was clear he had some issues with what was going on, mostly after Buffy and company made him think about it. So that might be a point sort of in his favor or maybe neutral? But he did join the unit. Pretty sure you have to volunteer for special services. Also... the disturbing behavior of the unit (running operations on US soil) is likely contrary to law - but that I blame mostly on the writers.
Even if it were legal, the Nazi Germany 'science experiments' are seriously troubling.
He was seriously concerned about the fact he was weaker than Buffy. His pride was absolutely not handling it. We see it when she throws him across the room and we see it when he is resistant to removing the chip even when it became life threatening. This suggests a huge, fragile ego AND a thorough lack of judgment. He simply could not handle being in the shadow of his woman. When he arrives less than a year after leaving, he's already found a replacement... one who he expects to answer to him, though (unless this is not really the US military) his spouse would not legally be in his chain of command. Buffy AND Sam are more appendages, than people. He needs subordinates, not equals. When one doesn't cooperate, he finds one that does. Easy. Peasy. Done!
He arrives back in Sunnydale and rubs Buffy's nose in his life... and seems to delight in showing off his superior life and togetherness at what is her LOWEST ebb. Again with the CRUELTY.
When Buffy needs support when her mother is ill, Riley needs to reassure HIM that HE IS the one... He cares more that she doesn't talk to him, than that she's in pain. He needs her to take care of his feelings when her mother is deathly ill.
When he continues to feel inadequate after Buffy's mum's in hospital he starts cheating on her and then HE BLAMES HER for the fact that he has not only cheated on her, but he has repeatedly PUT HER AND HER FAMILY AND FRIENDS IN MORTAL DANGER. Because he could easily have been turned and showed up and eaten an unsuspecting Dawn and maybe even Xander. If he got a drop on Willow, Tara or Buffy, possibly them too... he could have been a vampire and come in and killed them all in their sleep.
Yet, THIS is the creature who gives a hurting, scared Buffy an ultimatum when the army wants him back. I don't think he was ever not going to leave. If he'd wanted to stay, he'd have talked to her like a human and acted like a PENITENT. He was the guilty party. He'd have made Buffy his priority. Or better yet, he'd have stayed and sorted his relationship and been there for her when her mother died -- and seen if there was a future for them AFTER Buffy's crises (with her mother AND Dawn) were over. Maybe if he'd stayed in Sunnydale, Buffy might not have had to jump! One more person with major fighting skills and military strategy training could have made a huge difference (He would have been an officer as he was college educated - so lots of potential for battle strategy) But he did not think much of Buffy's needs. Only his own. Only his career.
He is a selfish piece of work.
Angel tried to be his best person because of Buffy.
Spike actually went and got his soul because of Buffy.
Riley tried to gaslight Buffy into believing that SHE was to blame for his inadequacy.
Then he came back to Sunnydale to show off with his brand new wife and his 'perfect' life.
No, Riley is a NASTY person. And he doesn't even have a demon living inside him.
Because both Angel and Spike have to fight with a demon inside EVERY DAY, EVERY DECISION. Even with a soul, the demon is still there, still wanting to kill. Both worked to save the world. Spike even does it before he has a soul or makes any pretense for being 'good'. Both fight the good fight over the course of years. Spike sacrifices his life for the planet. (and if you consider only the series canon, so does Angel)
Riley? Riley gets a nice new career with lots of fancy duds and a pretty, hot wife. Riley serves Riley. When he's not serving fascists who cut up sentient beings and try to make super soldiers or implant stuff into them... (including people like Oz, who live their lives not harming others).
Riley is not a lot better than Parker. At least Parker is over quickly.
EDIT: One more thing... this about Buffy. ONLY in her relationship with Riley did she have to make herself smaller. It's NOT just that she had to pretend she wasn't as strong as she was. She had to do that every moment with Riley... not because she was stronger, but because he was NOT cool with it. Xander knew he was weaker than Buffy but never did he ever want her to be less than she was. I don't ship her with Xander, but he was infinitely more accepting of who she was and respected who and what she was more than Riley did. (maybe a bit too much worship, but he did not ever want to make her 'less than'). He never took stupid risks or put himself in harms way to 'prove' his manhood. Riley did.
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thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Well, its not like he didn't have a point. And anyway, then he walked away. Not 'ruthlessly pursuit and stalk until he got his way', not 'break into Buffy's house and steal her clothes' or whatever.
On two entirely different levels, seriously.
Yep, its almost like non-canon ships are held to the same standard because they're not actually real, lol.
It's the advantage and disadvantage; it canonically didn't happen so it doesn't actually matter. Go figure.
Since this is a thread about shippers I'm trying to make it about that, I'm not 'pretending' anything. And I'm certainly not the one who is going after other ships or characters with a vengeance; look at the above for a good example of that.
Also, since you don't know when I ship a mythical ship like Faith/Buffy then its impossible to make comparisons. Take just one example, motivation. The motivations regarding Faith and Spike are world's apart, especially to themselves.
People who 'see similarities' don't really understand the character motivations of Spike or Faith that well, they just look at the toxic behavior and make shallow comparisons but whatever.
I think people who don't see the similarities between them don't understand the characters. There are differences but you have to understand that Faith committed bad actions souled. I do think that being souled gives you a greater level of responsibilities. I don't think you either understand Spike or have any interest in doing so - you just look at everything he does in the worst possible light despite others trying to make you see it differently. You can't work with you that and just have whistle past it and call it out. I don't look down on non-canon ships but a non-canon shipper is still a shipper and I don't think they're better than canon ships either. I think Fuffy shippers are overly prone to idealisation IMO but there's an element of it in most shippers. I like Faith a lot actually I can see Spaith is workable and it's a shame that Buffy never met Gunn as I think he's the closest thing she'll find to a man who can keep up with her and work with her but still support her and give her a proper life plus he's a good boyfriend he was to Fred.
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thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
The similarities are VERY obvious and almost entirely surface level imo.
Um, yeah. Never indicated otherwise.
Hey, do you think that might be part of the appeal? Y'know, a character who doesn't hide behind the 'didn't have a soul then' shield whilst acting pretty much the same? Somebody who actually crossed a very deliberate moral event horizon that they can't come back from and is treated accordingly by the protagonists AND fans? Somebody who sin't let off and inta-forgiven by those she's wronged despite showing much evidence of change of an extended period of time?
Faith does not have the get-out that Angel has (who chooses not to take for complex character reasons) or that Spike has (a get-out he is entirely comfortable taking when it suits him) but she cannot; she has solid character motives/reasons to change in the way that she did (which isn't an excuse, just consistent character writing) and then come back from all of that because of other character developments. The change from good-ish to bad to reformed is well realized. People respond to that.
I think you haven't been on the boards long enough to know that that's fairly inaccurate, in fact its the many interactions/arguments with Spike fans that brought me to my current view of him over the many years of interacting with Spike-fans and numerous Spuffy shippers.
My realizations are not just from my views of him, but also informed by others views of him. I completely understand his appeal, I really do. I actually used to like the guy when I was younger and dumber.
In my experience many in the Spike fandom idolized/white wash him to an insane degree whilst badmouthing Angel at any opportunity (because many of them are shippers, see?). I remember back in the day, I used to say something mildly critical about Spike and always got accused of 'being a Bangel'. Gotta say, it quickly got tiresome.
Yeah, I never said that they were better, per se, only that they should be held to a different standards, which seems obvious to me.
To me, the advantage of non-canon ships is that they never get 'in the way of' the story, so being a 'non-canon' shipper means that its easier to be more objective about the actual series as it unfolds and look at the pluses and negatives of any canon ship.
Of the canon Buffy relationships, all are important to her character growth, all have merits and flaws to one degree or another.
However, I can recognize which ones are better written, more engaging (to me anyway) and which ones where some of the writers sabotage existing non-romantic relationships to make the ship look better.
Sure, I think some (a minority) Faith/Buffy shippers are overly prone to idealizing Faith 'oh, she lived in a motel so she gets to murder people!' etc, its kind of deranged.
But the fact is that she is one of the few characters who took responsibility for the large amounts of harm she did whilst souled and willingly accepted punishment without wanting rewards or expecting/demanding recognition from those that she had crossed. She compares favorably to plenty of other morally grey characters (Anya, Willow, Andrew, Souled Spike)...but on the other hand there are plenty who are just plain better than her, ethically speaking (Tara, Dawn, Xander, Buffy herself, longer list obvs).
By that same token I see a vast number of Spuffy shippers who idealize Spike and his actions.
I will give one comparative example; I have seen lots of debate about Buffy stabbing Faith and its rights and wrongs, its motivation and execution. Fair enough.. But I have never seen that stabbing used as justification for Faith's actions before or especially after.
On the other hand I've seen lots comparisons between the AR and Buffy badly beating Spike in 'Dead Things'; 'oh, its the worst she ever did, and she did it to somebody who loved her!' 'oh, its easily her worst moment, she could've killed him'. Lotta OTT commentary. These fans complain that the beating is never brought up and used against Buffy/Spuffy in the same way that the assault later on that's 'gone on and on about too much' by people who want to 'demonize' a relationship.
It never occurs to these people that maybe the reason that its gone on and on about is precisely because of ludicrous comparisons and qualifiers like the above one.
Anyway, I'm done going on about my many experiences within the fandom, which are entirely legitimate whether you believe them or not.
Anyway, a more general question, I've heard that the fandoms of Legend Of Korra, Steven Universe, She-Ra can all get pretty toxic when it comes to shipping?
Any truth to this, for those in the know?
I can only speak on Legend of Korra and Steven, but yes, they can be toxic at times.
With Korra, the toxicity seems to generate around whether people think she belongs with a man or a woman. The show demonstrates both, and since LGBTQ+ stuff never gets argued about on the internet ad nauseum, it’s always a civilized and polite argument. 😉
With Steven it again is a result of the LGBTQ+ themes, but the show also shows some problematic relationships. One character for example is in a really abusive relationship. The fanbase argues about whether or not characters belong with each other, and the fact that there’s some serious issues in there leads to heated discussion.
thetopher
Interesting. Thank you. :)
Ok with the stabbing you're using false equivalence and it's kinda implied that in a sense it does motivate Faith's vindictive actions towards Buffy (she wakes up having had a nightmare about Buffy disturbing a perfect picnic with the Mayor by stabbing her it's not rocket science to make the connection here) but it's complicated because in a sense Faith wants to be Buffy. However Buffy's attack wasn't unprovoked but motivated by a desire to both save Angel and avenge him plus stop a dangerous person in the process. Inadvertantly she ends up both provoking and avenging the Mayor whose idea the attack on Angel was and he reveals his weakness.
I don't think Spuffys are generally arguing that the beat down justifies the AR just that the abusive and toxic nature of the relationship wasn't a one way street and both were motivated by the fundamental roadblock that both her guilt which wasn't without foundation and his fundamental lack of the tools to understand it and their mutual frustration over that. She had more to forgive than he did but didn't mean that he didn't have things to forgive. That is NOT what he's saying in Never Leave Me though he's saying that having walked in her shoes and having what she always has he now understands the guilt, shame and self hatred.
Your saying that you used to like Spike when you were younger and dumber is insulting and it's part of a patronising attitude that as a Spuffy you constantly deal with that - you are immature, blinded by lust, that you don't care about Buffy or real life SA victims and are akin to a serial killer groupie (the last one from a writer on the show). My view has nuanced as I've got older I understand more what the text was trying to do in showing Spike's flaws and the damage that Spuffy was doing to Buffy and what that said about toxic coping mechanisms in depression but season two has metaphors and devices for showing how Bangel had flaws too and was unhealthy. Neither are entirely directly comparable to real life except maybe as possible addiction metaphors.
However I can do that without ditching my love for the character and seeing how things can be salvaged like as they are with Faith. I agree different things drive them with Spike it's a part of pysche that needs to be restored and then integrated with Faith it's realising her damage and mistakes don't have to define her. Neither are who they once were but they have elements of them both good and bad. Also you say Faith isn't excused as much as Spike I'd argue her AS/murder attempt on Xander is actually more whistled past (and if you think that Buffy's trauma is given zero focus then it's still more than Xander's) because the MRAs do have a point that female on male assault or anything which isn't the assault of a woman by a man isn't taken seriously generally either by media but arguably irl. It's rarer than male on female SA but it does happen. Also here actually in some ways Faith's actions are worse physically because Xander is physically weaker than her whereas Buffy is of at least comparable physical strength to Spike if not stronger.
I think again your division of ambigious/good characters is overly simplistic - Tara is fair enough and a lot of Dawn's bad decisions are a mix of literal immaturity and impulsiveness and frustration but Xander does many things that are petty and selfish and I'd argue that his vindictiveness towards Angel is a factor that sends Faith down her dark path. It could be argued Xander does less harm as he has less power, Willow certainly causes more damage and becomes more ambigious as she grows in power.
It's called nuance. Some Fuffys and Faith fans annoying me don't stop me liking and looking to more understand Faith. If fans annoy you - you need to look past absorb what they say that is valid and challenge what is bs but be fair. Don't try and make out a fist fight between two entities trying to protect people but also vent their rages on a safe target is entirely one of them's fault for example especially when it's obvious that person you deam as blameless was being provocative for both altustictic and not so altruistic reasons.
Reason: Needed adding too.
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thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
I'm talking specifically about the fanbase; the fans don't do this. Obviously 'in show' Faith wants to get revenge on Buffy for...well, mostly forgetting about her and moving on. The knife attack is brought up exactly once. Faith is way more bothered that Buffy is 'dating someone new'.
But people/fandom don't say 'eh, Buffy had that bodyswap coming, she tried to murder Faith after all. Karma's a bitch.' because that would be horrible and excuse Faith's reprehensible actions.
Please don't try and turn my little self-depreciating joke some kind of personal attack on you and Spuffies in general. It wasn't, I was explaining my (bad) experiences with many Spike fans. But I still any take any individual fan as I find them.
As for Spike, again, I see the appeal of the character, I just don't share it. I'm done being dogmatic about it.
There are three specific reasons why Faith's assault/murder attempt on Xander was not focused on as much as Buffy/Spike:
1) Gender. That, of course is a factor, as you indicate.
2) The fandom agree that Faith is entirely in the wrong and Xander did nothing to bring this on himself. He tried to help Faith and she, in turn, crossed the line and hurt him. I see plenty of justification for the AR. Plus a lot of the writing the season after emphasized Buffy's horrid treatment of Spike.
3) The main one; Faith and Xander never went on to have any kind of intimate/romantic relationship after this assault. To me this is the big difference in comparison to Buffy/Spike. If 'Fander' (or whatever) HAD happened I think people would've expected way more of an exploration. But as it is Faith and Xander never share another scene together until many years (except that brief scene in 'Who Are You?') as opposed to months.
And, from what I've seen Faith has shown major contrition for worse things (the torture of Wesley, for example, is way, way worse) so we can maybe extrapolate what we would have likely happened in a scene between her and Xander. I for one would've wanted maybe a lil' scene so Faith can see how Xander had matured and he could've seen how she'd calmed down some and changed. Maybe she's helping him with his eye meds or something. Would've liked that more than some of what we got.
I'm sorry we didn't get it but it doesn't spoil was was already not there to begin with. It's comparing what we didn't get but maybe wanted with (in the case of Spuffy) what we got but...maybe hated?
Also I don't think choking somebody is in anyway worse than somebody getting their face beaten in. I think both are awful but certainly the latter is viscerally more traumatic. If Spike had had a soul I might've felt bad for him.
Not really; personally taking a human life is serious business and should have major consequences for a character. And I never stated that Xander or Dawn or Tara were intrinsically morally good, just ethically more moral than Faith. That's not simplistic; the value of human life should absolutely be consistent, even when the show tries to pretend that it isn't.
And I find Faith's developing morality as she gets older much more solid than others who have crossed that same line. I understand why Faith would not do repeat the evils that she committed far more than I do with Willow or Andrew, for example.
It's actually the same in real life; sure there are liars and thieves, con artists and vandals...but taking a human life is another matter entirely. I might have my problems with Xander or Riley's personality and character choices but at the end of the day I don't know if they're capable of cold-blooded murder.
Look, I know you're not trying to be patronizing... but I have literally been in over a hundred debates with Spike fans, about Spike, and have endured a hell of a lot of crap from that particular corner of the fandom.
I am not disliking Spike to, somehow, get back at those people; that would be weird since I don't particularly value their opinions that highly. I was never soured in regards to Spike, I really don't hate him. Well, I don't hate the demon at least, he's okay. *joke*
It's more nuanced than that; in fact it's by discussion and argumentation that we come to our own views on a whole variety of subjects. That's precisely why discussion IS so valuable a tool; through debate we find out useful things, we find out what we, as viewers, value and respond to in terms of art.
And maybe you should get past this and move on, everyone else already has. To put it bluntly the debate was over and put well to bed long time ago.
I am consistent on this matter; the person who throws the first punch is in the wrong; that's what I say not just about the particular scene you keep on referencing but every single time it is done; when Buffy does it, or Faith, or Spike. And in S7 there is a pattern of Spike doing it. A lot.
It's not that I don't get why he is doing it, and also why Faith is getting in his face a bit and making herself a target, but pointing out a character's personal flaws is not wrong, it is what it is.
We're getting off topic but as to you trying to discredit me by playing the just jokes bro card I'd point out that a wiser person than both of us pointed out that many a true word is said in jest and it's all too easy to both adjust to joke to be one or not when it suits you or to misread it in printed form. In which it's either a honest mistake on my count or it's a goalpost shift on yours.
Also no matter how many times you've been round the mulberry bush if you're doing it with blinkers on you're not gonna learn much about the territory around it.
Also no matter how many times you've been round the mulberry bush if you're doing it with blinkers on you're not gonna learn much about the territory around it.
Oh yes last thought I know from experience that it's not always about the first person throwing the punch being in the wrong some very clever but very manipulative people can goad you into being the bad guy like that if they know what buttons to press and can do it hard or often enough. You can destroy someone with certain words at certain times or you make them look bad enough other people will do it for you. Faith is not trying to do that but she does want a fight and she knows how to achieve that without undermining what she needs to be in other people's eyes to be an effective leader.
Disagree with you there. He didn't cheat on her. That's just what fans see it as. If anything, it was more like addiction and self harm. Something that could end up killing him. Buffy even brought up how dangerous it was.
I love Buffy, she's one of my favourite characters, but she wasn't innocent in this. Buffy wasn't fair to him. Fans say he was needy but he wasn't. Buffy was the one being distant with him. She hadn't realized just how much she was hurting him with her actions. Viewers like to blame Riley but if it was the other way around, and it was Riley who connected to everyone but Buffy and only thought about her when he felt like climbing into bed to feel good then they'd defend her. How Riley dealt with it was wrong but at the same time it was a reaction to Buffy not being a good girlfriend. Buffy had needed to realise that she needs to be present in a ADULT relationship. She shouldn't have treated him as a accessory. People have said that Riley gave her a ultimatum but it wasn't like he meant to. He didn't really have a choice, He was leaving that very night and he just wanted to know if they still had a chance to repair their relationship. He was done being the only one making a effort in their relationship. He was ready to move on and pursue his dream of being back in the military. He still loves Buffy however and was willing to stay if she felt the same. Xander had wanted Buffy to make a decision. If she didn't feel the same way about Riley then the decent thing to do would be to let him go but if she did, and she's done holding back then she should try and convince him to stay and she did. She ran after him like her life depended on it because she did love him. Sadly for her, she was too late. I'm glad that Riley left for the military because he deserved better. Being a black ops demon Hunter what who Riley was always meant to be and being in Sunnydale was holding him back.
While it wasn't "cheating" in a Real World sense, within the Buffyverse and its context, it could definitely be construed as cheating. Vampires biting humans has been shown to be quite intimate - it had been for Buffy with both Angel and Dracula - and Riley was going to the vamps for intimacy for physical sensation and for escape, all things which would make his actions count as cheating. He was performing an intimate and sexual act with someone who wasn't his partner. Cheating.
That is really not what happened. Buffy was being strong for her family, she was keeping herself together and trying to stay in control while dealing with some very scary and adult stuff. She didn't have time to pander to Riley's insecurities while her mother was literally dying from a brain tumour. Riley was upset because Buffy wasn't crying on his shoulder or showing weakness. He wanted to be the Big Strong Man to save the day and was pissed that she was too strong a woman to let him.
In Season 4 - before she had Real World Family trauma to deal with - Buffy is very open, loving and affectionate with Riley. She opens up to him and shares with him. But in Season 5 she has to be strong for her own family, which mean she closes off - from everyone - and Riley's fragile male ego couldn't handle it.
I wouldn't say that Buffy ever treated Riley as an "accessory". And while I agree that she needs to be present in a "adult" relationship, Riley also needed to recognise and understand that what Buffy was going through was going to change her availability and take up emotional space, and he should have respected that and realised that Joyce's illness had to come first, not pandering to his ego.
Whether he meant it or not, Riley still made the ultimatum, and a healthy relationship can't be based off something so emotionally manipulative. Riley was hardly the "only one making an effort in their relationship" - in fact, given that he decided to have a hissy fit and cheat on her with vampires instead of standing by her through her mother's illness, I'd say that he definitely was not making any effort by the end of it all.
I disagree with you and already explained why. He was the only one making the effort. I already admitted to Riley reaction as being wrong. It doesn't matter if the audience see it as cheating because I don't agree. It was like addiction and self harm to me and to others. He was hurting himself and he could have died. That's self harm. It also doesn't matter that Buffy hadn't meant to treat him as a convenience because that's what she ultimately made him feel. Instead of keeping it on the inside, he should have talked to her about it but, because of her mother's illness, he didn't want to add more to her troubles. Riley leaving was for the best because he deserved to be happy and to be with someone who's as committed to the relationship as he was. Buffy loved him but her intimacy issues got in the way. By the time she realised how she felt, it was too late. Fans hate the fact that Riley was seen as the guy who got away but they need to accept that he was. He left, Buffy ran after him but couldn't make it in time. That's the definition of the guy who got away.
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People have said that Buffy behaved like that because of her mother's health problems but what was her excuse before that? She was distant for five whole episodes before her mother was sick so what were her reasons then?
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DeepBlueJoy
Lion Faced Kitteh
Riley's bite-scapades put Buffy AND everyone else at risk. That is worse than normal cheating. Normal cheat risks AIDS. Vampire whoring risks that he gets turned and kills everyone.
After Angelus, that would have been way more destructive to Buffy and she probably would have had to stake him (assuming he did not kill her in her sleep).
That is a suicidal way to deal with relationship issues. Suicidal, reckless and SELFISH in the extreme. I am like Cordy in this respect, i dont look back. I would not have chased that plane no matter how much emotional stirring my friends did. If Xander had not talked her into it, Buffy would not have chased him either. I wish she had not. Riley stole her dignity and humiliated her and returned to do it again. Nope. No use for him.
After Angelus, that would have been way more destructive to Buffy and she probably would have had to stake him (assuming he did not kill her in her sleep).
That is a suicidal way to deal with relationship issues. Suicidal, reckless and SELFISH in the extreme. I am like Cordy in this respect, i dont look back. I would not have chased that plane no matter how much emotional stirring my friends did. If Xander had not talked her into it, Buffy would not have chased him either. I wish she had not. Riley stole her dignity and humiliated her and returned to do it again. Nope. No use for him.