Should Angel and Spike be blamed for what they did without souls?

[JCoatsworth]

No, that's my whole point dude, if they're not in control, you can't possible blame them. Not in control = not the same person = not responsible.

Well, I understand your point and it might be true with Angel, but Spike was soulless until season 7 and with him it's fairly simple, in my opinion. He was evil when the Initiative blocked his ability to kill living creatures. So he was responsible for everything he did. And since he wasn't cursed, but got his soul back on purpose, I'd say he's still responsible for what he did. Even with a soul. And I find that the soul didn't quite change him the way it changed Angel.
In the end, it was better that they didn't kill him, but that's not relevant.

 

[SinisterPledge]

Well, I understand your point and it might be true with Angel, but Spike was soulless until season 7 and with him it's fairly simple, in my opinion. He was evil when the Initiative blocked his ability to kill living creatures. So he was responsible for everything he did. And since he wasn't cursed, but got his soul back on purpose, I'd say he's still responsible for what he did. Even with a soul. And I find that the soul didn't quite change him the way it changed Angel.
In the end, it was better that they didn't kill him, but that's not relevant.

It does not matter when he lost his soul. What matters is what he did with a soul and what he didn't. I don't understand the relevance of the Initiative, nor how he went about to get his soul back. In fact, I'd say getting his soul back on purpose is a good act, while being cursed..well, Angel didn't really have a say did he?

And so what Spike didn't change much? It doesn't change the fact that he wasn't in control of his own body when he killed all those people.


It's just my opinion though, I'm not saying you're wrong! 😉

 

[JCoatsworth]

Oops. I think we might be talking past each other. I'll just take your post apart and comment on it, so you know what I mean.

It does not matter when he lost his soul. What matters is what he did with a soul and what he didn't.

I didn't say that it matters when he lost his soul. It matters when he got his soul back. Spike didn't have a soul from the day he was sired until the moment he got his soul back at the end of season 6. So until season 7 he was completely responsible for everything he did and therefore he was the one to blame.

I don't understand the relevance of the Initiative, nor how he went about to get his soul back. In fact, I'd say getting his soul back on purpose is a good act, while being cursed..well, Angel didn't really have a say did he?

The Initiative planted the chip in Spike's brain. They didn't give him a soul. He was the same person and not just the same body, like you said Angel was.
When Spike got his soul back it was a good act indeed. But the way I see it, it also shows that he's aware of the things he's done. And that's the thing. In my opinion, he's still responsible after he got the soul.

And so what Spike didn't change much? It doesn't change the fact that he wasn't in control of his own body when he killed all those people.

As I already said, in season 4, when he was rather harmless, he was still the same person that killed hundreds people.


I'm often talking about soulless Spike. I just think that killing him when he wasn't dangerous (but still evil) in season 4 would have been the right thing to do, since he was responsible for the murders he committed. I know that this isn't really the question here, but I still think the two issues are connected.

It's just my opinion though, I'm not saying you're wrong! 😉

I'm not saying you're wrong either. In fact, this isn't really a subject where there's right and wrong. There are only different opinions. It's just a discussion about something completely fictional without any scientific background or anything 😀

 

[SinisterPledge]

Oops. I think we might be talking past each other. I'll just take your post apart and comment on it, so you know what I mean.


I didn't say that it matters when he lost his soul. It matters when he got his soul back. Spike didn't have a soul from the day he was sired until the moment he got his soul back at the end of season 6. So until season 7 he was completely responsible for everything he did and therefore he was the one to blame.

Well I'd say it's the complete opposite. It's when he has his soul = control of his body that he can be blamed for his actions. When he's soulless, you can't blame Spike (soul) for what the demon does.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] [MENTION=11975]Always Bangel[/MENTION] and others

People, can you please tell my why you derail and pollute almost every thread about Spike and Angel with your shipping nonsense? Why? You have a special freaking board to do that, go and wage your naval battles there. This thread is not about determining which one of them is a bigger wanker.
[MENTION=11500]drizzlydaze[/MENTION]

'Ultimately changes nothing'? Angel has saved lives, averted apocalypses... I'd say that changes a lot. I know I've argued with you about this before, but I'll repeat what I said back then: After losing his soul in S2, he killed only as much as a normal vamp plus Jenny Calendar. Compared to the lives he's saved? I say pragmatically speaking, Angel being alive--well, not alive, but you know what I mean--is a good thing.

Until he inevitably goes bad again. It's OK when Angel goes on a killing spree once in a while because he'll save lives again, right? No, it's not OK, the end does not justify the means. That's why the doctors who conducted human experimentation during WWII were hanged instead of going back to work at the hospitals. Those were good doctors, they knew their job and could save thousands of lives and look what happened. Morality and Justice are largely not pragmatic.

Also, Angel's and Spike's journeys would make zero sense if they cannot be blamed for their actions.

Agreed.

 

[JCoatsworth]

Well I'd say it's the complete opposite. It's when he has his soul = control of his body that he can be blamed for his actions. When he's soulless, you can't blame Spike (soul) for what the demon does.

Haha that's all really complicated 😀
Okay, I'll try to explain my view based on another thought I just had. Angelus and Angel are actually two different people. There's a clear line between the two personalities. It's different with Spike: His two states of mind fade into one another. Spike slowly changes from evil to good, and on the way form one state to the other he gets his soul back.

Or let me put it this way: A (normal) human being murders a hundred people. But suddenly he has a change of heart and feels real bad about it. Should he still be arrested? I think he should.
It's totally different with Angel, although I still think that he should be blamed, because of the simple fact that 'his body' killed a few thousand people.

Well, none of that does change that I like them both 😛

 

[dexeded]

Until he inevitably goes bad again. It's OK when Angel goes on a killing spree once in a while because he'll save lives again, right? No, it's not OK, the end does not justify the means. That's why the doctors who conducted human experimentation during WWII were hanged instead of going back to work at the hospitals. Those were good doctors, they knew their job and could save thousands of lives and look what happened. Morality and Justice are largely not pragmatic.

There are many doctors in the world who can save lives. There aren't many champions who can save the world. Plus, Nazi doctors aren't likely to suddenly have a boatload of genuine guilt.

Haha that's all really complicated 😀
Okay, I'll try to explain my view based on another thought I just had. Angelus and Angel are actually two different people. There's a clear line between the two personalities. It's different with Spike: His two states of mind fade into one another. Spike slowly changes from evil to good, and on the way form one state to the other he gets his soul back.

Or let me put it this way: A (normal) human being murders a hundred people. But suddenly he has a change of heart and feels real bad about it. Should he still be arrested? I think he should.
It's totally different with Angel, although I still think that he should be blamed, because of the simple fact that 'his body' killed a few thousand people.

Well, none of that does change that I like them both 😛

So... double standard? How can Angel/Angelus be different while Spike/Spike be the same?

 

[JCoatsworth]

So... double standard? How can Angel/Angelus be different while Spike/Spike be the same?

I don't know how, but in my opinion, it is that way. It's simple.

 

[EVIL UU]

There aren't many champions who can save the world.

I don't think so. Most witches ( Amy, Tara, Willow etc. ) could easily replace and outperform a brainwashed vampire. Anyway, who says the world needs champions? Angel could play the hero because the supernatural trash was kept hidden from the general population. Thanks to technology and sheer numbers the humanity is able to keep the world safe.

Plus, Nazi doctors aren't likely to suddenly have a boatload of genuine guilt.

Well, a champion whose sole motivation is guilt is not a champion in my book.

 

[ladydorotea]

but as far as the "Physically-with his own hands" qualifier, I seem to recall him using his own hands to kill someone very close to Buffy

See, it takes a deliberate misstatement on my part ( omitting that one death done physically by Angel's hands) for you to come up with the truth - Angel physically did not kill anybody until he was taken over by Twilight entity and turned into basically meat-puppet.

Also, if memory serve me correctly. quite a few Nazi war criminals never personally killed anyone, either, but they were murderers, all the same, and had to stand trial and face punishment for their crimes.

My argument was not about Angel not being culpable for what happened in S8 - bizarre as it was. It was about physical deaths caused by direct hands-on interaction. And if you are bringing the Nazi analogy, might as well remember all the deaths of civilians in bombed-to-the-ground Dresden, Hiroshima, Berlin ( when Russian troops stormed it) as well as many other cities all over the world. Nobody hold the allied commanders responsible - but if we are going with scales and measure tape there were millions of deaths on both sides - and some of the atrocities committed by generals/commanders who never hung were heinous. Victors write history book and so on. Blaming Angel for 'thousands of deaths' while ignoring Buffy's army culpability in igniting the conflict with 'humanity' is, IMHO, hypocritical. Especially in lieu of bank robbing even being thrown in early in the season.

As for Angel's actual plans concerning the fate of the universe and all of its inhabitants, despite Joss and everyone else's efforts to reboot Season 8. I just can't seem to suspend my disbelief enough

Well, it is all in your personal canon then, also known as 'fanon'. Especially since you keep calling the Twilight prophecy - that predated Angel being born and sired - 'Angel's plan'.
[MENTION=11975]Always Bangel[/MENTION]

I think the only real reason why people DO harp on Spike for that is because he still acts the same, personality wise, after regaining his soul, while the personalities of Angel and Angelus are totally different.

I am not sure about others, but I personally am certain that Spike with a soul is no longer capable of using rape as a way of controlling 'misbehaving' girlfriend or satisfying his urges with other unknown 'young girls like you' ( to quote from his speech to Dawn).
He remains the same obsessive misogynistic jerk who can jump Harmony's bones and then insult her in her face - but I firmly believe that rape is something he fully detests now - exactly because he has a soul. Same as Angel no longer feeds his pride with mayhem, torture and killing sprees - because soul is a moral compass that allows him to channel his urges of proving his worth into helping and saving the weak instead.

I also think that one of the reasons people DO harp on Spike for that is because it upsets many greatly that attempted rape of a heroine was used as a plot device to move Spike's (man's) personal story forward and give him much needed development at a price of Buffy's personal humiliation and pain. Same as Joss is using you-know-who's death in S8 to advance Angel as a character and give him development. Joss and the writers focused on the Spike's side of the story and left Buffy to 'deal with it' - i.e. her trauma at being almost raped in her own bathroom - in a way that felt unsatisfactory - especially to those in the audience who are more sensitive to the topic of sexual violence for personal reasons.

Me personally I only get seriously upset with folks who claim that 'Spike did not need a soul to be good', because he was already secretly a 'knight in shining armor looking for a damsel to worship'. And when pointed out at the rape incident claim - 'he did not mean it because it was consensual violence before so he was justified'.

 

[SinisterPledge]

Haha that's all really complicated 😀
Okay, I'll try to explain my view based on another thought I just had. Angelus and Angel are actually two different people. There's a clear line between the two personalities. It's different with Spike: His two states of mind fade into one another. Spike slowly changes from evil to good, and on the way form one state to the other he gets his soul back.

Or let me put it this way: A (normal) human being murders a hundred people. But suddenly he has a change of heart and feels real bad about it. Should he still be arrested? I think he should.
It's totally different with Angel, although I still think that he should be blamed, because of the simple fact that 'his body' killed a few thousand people.

Well, none of that does change that I like them both 😛

But how can you blame someone if he isn't in control of his actions? There's a difference between killing someone while drinking & driving and being possesed by a demon.

Your "normal human being" example isn't valid as they didn't have control over their bodies when commiting the crimes the vampire demon did.

They didn't have a "change of heart". They got their souls back, making them mentally human, instead of demons.

I wouldn't call vampires persons either 😛

 

[Robb Stark]

I am not sure about others, but I personally am certain that Spike with a soul is no longer capable of using rape as a way of controlling 'misbehaving' girlfriend or satisfying his urges with other unknown 'young girls like you' ( to quote from his speech to Dawn).
He remains the same obsessive misogynistic jerk who can jump Harmony's bones and then insult her in her face - but I firmly believe that rape is something he fully detests now - exactly because he has a soul. Same as Angel no longer feeds his pride with mayhem, torture and killing sprees - because soul is a moral compass that allows him to channel his urges of proving his worth into helping and saving the weak instead.

I also think that one of the reasons people DO harp on Spike for that is because it upsets many greatly that attempted rape of a heroine was used as a plot device to move Spike's (man's) personal story forward and give him much needed development at a price of Buffy's personal humiliation and pain. Same as Joss is using you-know-who's death in S8 to advance Angel as a character and give him development. Joss and the writers focused on the Spike's side of the story and left Buffy to 'deal with it' - i.e. her trauma at being almost raped in her own bathroom - in a way that felt unsatisfactory - especially to those in the audience who are more sensitive to the topic of sexual violence for personal reasons.

Me personally I only get seriously upset with folks who claim that 'Spike did not need a soul to be good', because he was already secretly a 'knight in shining armor looking for a damsel to worship'. And when pointed out at the rape incident claim - 'he did not mean it because it was consensual violence before so he was justified'.

I was only making the point that if we (as fans) are to forgive Angel for what Angelus has done, then it doesn't seem all that consistent to not do the same with Spike. Don't get me wrong. I hated that storyline. HATED it. I thought they took something that I did not need to see explored on television, something that is one of the single most heinous acts a person can commit, and basically exploited it for a "shocking" moment. That made it very uncomfortable for me to watch. Personally, it was poor writing. I just used that scene as an example in response to something someone else had said. That's all.

And as for Spike following the regaining of his soul, totally agree. He may have talked the same way personality wise, but I don't think for a second he would do the same things.

---------- Post added at 11:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 AM ----------

And I'm not saying that this whole topic is black and white. It's not. Clearly, whether Angel the man/ensouled vampire is at fault for the things Angelus did or not, he himself would still feel horrible for what happened. It was still, as others have pointed out, his body. He still remembers his hands and teeth killing people, even if he had no control over what happened. So of course he's going to feel guilty. Who wouldn't if that happened to them?

I'm not saying that makes it his fault, but I'm pointing out that Angel's story of redemption still works, even if it was the demon who'd infected his body committing those acts and not him.

 

[JCoatsworth]

But how can you blame someone if he isn't in control of his actions? There's a difference between killing someone while drinking & driving and being possesed by a demon.

Your "normal human being" example isn't valid as they didn't have control over their bodies when commiting the crimes the vampire demon did.

I wasn't talking about drinking and driving. I meant something like a mental illness. The insane person from my example wasn't really in control over their actions either, but yet one would probably blame them.

They didn't have a "change of heart". They got their souls back, making them mentally human, instead of demons.

Spike did. He decided to get his soul back.

And I just had yet another thought 😀 Angel and Spike are to blame because of their existence all by itself. No matter if they didn't have control over what they did. Their presence alone makes them responsible, if you look at it in a certain way. The first example that comes to my mind is Giles. The best thing for a vampire with a soul would probably be suicide. That would be the most responsible thing to do.

 

[SinisterPledge]

I wasn't talking about drinking and driving. I meant something like a mental illness. The insane person from my example wasn't really in control over their actions either, but yet one would probably blame them.


Spike did. He decided to get his soul back.

And I just had yet another thought 😀 Angel and Spike are to blame because of their existence all by itself. No matter if they didn't have control over what they did. Their presence alone makes them responsible, if you look at it in a certain way. The first example that comes to my mind is Giles. The best thing for a vampire with a soul would probably be suicide. That would be the most responsible thing to do.

Well if you are to compare vampires to mental illness then we're talking about some serious ****ing mental illness dude. I mean, being a vampire means you have no control whatsoever, and I think there are very few mental illnesses who cause that sort extreme condition.

And no, you don't blame mentally ill people for the crimes they commit, that's why criminals who are proven mentally ill gets put in asylums etc. They're not convicted as hard (or at all) for the crime they commited, but are instead isolated to protect the public.

And I don't see how any fair minded person could blame two innocent persons for being possessed by a demon against their will. Don't blame Angel or Spike (with soul). Blame the vampires who sired them.

That a vampire should suicide for the sake of protecting others is a valid point I'll admit, but that still doesn't change the fact (and what this thread is about) that they shouldn't be blamed for what they did as soulless creatures. They got their souls back after they had killed all those thousands of people. Angel even decided to make up for what his demon had done (even though he was not to blame) by helping those in need.


Put yourself in their shoes:
You're just a nice german guy who goes about his own life, then comes a vampire and sires you. A demon takes control of your body, and all you can do is watch as your body, controlled by a demon, not you kills hundreds of people. Why should you in anyway at all be blamed for the murders? You didn't do it. It's as simple as that.

 

[JCoatsworth]

Well if you are to compare vampires to mental illness then we're talking about some serious ****ing mental illness dude. I mean, being a vampire means you have no control whatsoever, and I think there are very few mental illnesses who cause that sort extreme condition.

And no, you don't blame mentally ill people for the crimes they commit, that's why criminals who are proven mentally ill gets put in asylums etc. They're not convicted as hard (or at all) for the crime they commited, but are instead isolated to protect the public.

Of course that would be a "serious ****ing mental illness". After all, I'm talking about murder. And I'd feel sorry for them, but the truth is that they did it and victims or the relatives of victims would blame them.

Put yourself in their shoes:
You're just a nice german guy who goes about his own life, then comes a vampire and sires you. A demon takes control of your body, and all you can do is watch as your body, controlled by a demon, not you kills hundreds of people. Why should you in anyway at all be blamed for the murders? You didn't do it. It's as simple as that.

Obviously, it's not as simple as that. Else we wouldn't be having this discussion. 😛
However, from the perspective you just showed me it's really hard to blame them (or me 😱). But if you look at it more from the victims' point of view, maybe you will understand what I mean.
Look at it this way: You're just some normal, let's say married guy. One day, your wife and children get slaughtered by some vampire that, shortly after the murders, gets its soul back. Would you still blame the vampire? It's really complicated, because one cannot look at this from just one perspective. I guess we see that also in Angel's season 3 with Holtz.

 

[SinisterPledge]

Of course that would be a "serious ****ing mental illness". After all, I'm talking about murder. And I'd feel sorry for them, but the truth is that they did it and victims or the relatives of victims would blame them.



Obviously, it's not as simple as that. Else we wouldn't be having this discussion. 😛
However, from the perspective you just showed me it's really hard to blame them (or me 😱). But if you look at it more from the victims' point of view, maybe you will understand what I mean.
Look at it this way: You're just some normal, let's say married guy. One day, your wife and children get slaughtered by some vampire that, shortly after the murders, gets its soul back. Would you still blame the vampire? It's really complicated, because one cannot look at this from just one perspective. I guess we see that also in Angel's season 3 with Holtz.

Yes, the vampires did it, not Angel the human person. Yes ofc if my wife and kids got slaughtered I would be furious and whatnot, but if I KNEW that he was a vampire without control of his actions, I can't blame him really. Doesn't mean we're gonna be best friends, but how can I possibly blame him for something he couldn't control?

Like Always Bangel said before, if you want to kill someone cuz you're angry at them, its vengeance, not justice. You have to make a rational decision and not act on anger. If you kill someone just for no other reason than the fact that you're angry (knowing Angel is innocent) then you're just as bad as the vampire.

 

[JCoatsworth]

Like Always Bangel said before, if you want to kill someone cuz you're angry at them, its vengeance, not justice. You have to make a rational decision and not act on anger. If you kill someone just for no other reason than the fact that you're angry (knowing Angel is innocent) then you're just as bad as the vampire.

I agree about that, but how can you possibly do that?


Anyway, after thinking a lot more about this specific matter than I intended to, I came to this conclusion:
Angel actually can't be blamed. It is, however, completely different with Spike. It's hard to explain, but his soulless state and his souled state seem to be quite similar. If season 7 Spike lost his soul somehow, he wouldn't be that different. Before he got his soul, he wasn't really evil anymore, but was still responsible for what he did before that. Therefore, I think that souled Spike can be blamed as well.

 

[Robb Stark]

Yes, the vampires did it, not Angel the human person. Yes ofc if my wife and kids got slaughtered I would be furious and whatnot, but if I KNEW that he was a vampire without control of his actions, I can't blame him really. Doesn't mean we're gonna be best friends, but how can I possibly blame him for something he couldn't control?

Like Always Bangel said before, if you want to kill someone cuz you're angry at them, its vengeance, not justice. You have to make a rational decision and not act on anger. If you kill someone just for no other reason than the fact that you're angry (knowing Angel is innocent) then you're just as bad as the vampire.

I wanted to rep you again but couldn't. This is kind of what S3 of Buffy was about. Angel's soul has been restored, and now he has to get his life back. Some of the people in his life, like Buffy and Willow, were able to separate Angel from Angelus. Xander couldn't. I think Giles was able to, but because the demon who killed Jenny was wearing Angel's freaking face, it was, obviously and understandably, much harder for him.

This is where Giles is much, much more mature, and a better man, than Holtz. Giles was able to see that Angel, with a soul, is a truly good man, a hero. Holtz couldn't do that. I don't know if you can really blame Holtz for feeling that way (although you can certainly blame him for the actions he took because of that), but I think it speaks to Giles' character that he was able to find that place.

[MENTION=10438]JCoatsworth[/MENTION]: That's cool that we've (or, well, Frooley, who has been the MVP of this thread) convinced you on Angel. Spike is a murkier case, simply because, like you said, he has a much closer personality to the soulless Spike we've always seen. I think Spike still acts the same way around people, brash, aggressive and kind of in-your-face, but at the same time I don't think that Spike post-S6 would kill people on a whim. I think he's a good person. Sure, he has a different personality than Angel, but let's also remember that Spike is one of the most beloved characters on the show, so no matter what happened he wasn't going to change too much personality wise. But as White Avenger said in an earlier post, I don't think for a second that Spike with a soul would have done the things that Spike pre-S6 did.

As for Spike getting his soul back, yeah, he chose it. But like I said earlier, I don't think he did it altruistically. He had other thoughts on his mind when he did so (namely, Buffy).

Gotta say, the response to this thread has been awesome! I didn't think we'd get nearly as much great discussion as we have when I started it.

 

[SinisterPledge]

I wanted to rep you again but couldn't. This is kind of what S3 of Buffy was about. Angel's soul has been restored, and now he has to get his life back. Some of the people in his life, like Buffy and Willow, were able to separate Angel from Angelus. Xander couldn't. I think Giles was able to, but because the demon who killed Jenny was wearing Angel's freaking face, it was, obviously and understandably, much harder for him.

This is where Giles is much, much more mature, and a better man, than Holtz. Giles was able to see that Angel, with a soul, is a truly good man, a hero. Holtz couldn't do that. I don't know if you can really blame Holtz for feeling that way (although you can certainly blame him for the actions he took because of that), but I think it speaks to Giles' character that he was able to find that place.

[MENTION=10438]JCoatsworth[/MENTION]: That's cool that we've (or, well, Frooley, who has been the MVP of this thread) convinced you on Angel. Spike is a murkier case, simply because, like you said, he has a much closer personality to the soulless Spike we've always seen. I think Spike still acts the same way around people, brash, aggressive and kind of in-your-face, but at the same time I don't think that Spike post-S6 would kill people on a whim. I think he's a good person. Sure, he has a different personality than Angel, but let's also remember that Spike is one of the most beloved characters on the show, so no matter what happened he wasn't going to change too much personality wise. But as White Avenger said in an earlier post, I don't think for a second that Spike with a soul would have done the things that Spike pre-S6 did.

As for Spike getting his soul back, yeah, he chose it. But like I said earlier, I don't think he did it altruistically. He had other thoughts on his mind when he did so (namely, Buffy).

Gotta say, the response to this thread has been awesome! I didn't think we'd get nearly as much great discussion as we have when I started it.

I was gonna rep you but my message got too long...So here it is:

Well thanks for creating a good thread, it's a really interesting subject. I don't really have anything more to add. Sure Spike's case isn't as crystal clear as Angels, but IMO he should be judged on the same premise as anyone, that being: what he did without a soul should not fall on his shoulders once he gets a soul. If Spike with a soul would kill lots of people, then he should be blamed for those murders, not the ones he did without a soul. Just because he's a douche, soul or not, doesn't change the fact he wasn't in control of his body when he killed those innocent people....But ehhhm...I'm just repeating myself aren't I?

I'll be quiet now! 🙂

 

[Aloverssoulz]

No, they're different beings, just inside the same body.

The soul in the Buffyverse is what makes the person who they are. Angel and Spike without their souls is not Angel and Spike. It's not like they got drunk and killed people, they didn't exist in their bodies at all. It was the demon in the bodies that did everything.

The reason Spike is pretty much the same with a soul is because unlike Angel, he realized that his actions he did pre-soul were not of his own free will, so he got over it. Which is why he spent just a few weeks moaning in a basement as Angel put it 😛

I don't think you can blame the demon in their bodies either. They're Vampires, they eat people to survive. Can they drink pigs blood instead? Sure, but why? Human blood has been shown to be the tastiest of blood on Earth in the Buffyverse, otherwise Vampires would eat animals instead. It's the food chain. At best you can say Angel and Spike were jerks for torturing the people they didn't eat, or have bad table manners for torturing those they ate later. It'd be like getting mad at a dog for licking its self. It's in its nature to do so XD

But no, I don't think Angel and souled Spike can be blamed for Angelus and pre-souled Spike's actions.