Should Angel and Spike be blamed for what they did without souls?

[white avenger]

Me personally I only get seriously upset with folks who claim that 'Spike did not need a soul to be good', because he was already secretly a 'knight in shining armor looking for a damsel to worship'. And when pointed out at the rape incident claim - 'he did not mean it because it was consensual violence before so he was justified'.

But, look at the two major loves in Spike's life, Dru and Buffy. (Yes, I am totally ignoring Harmony here) "For each one, ultimately, he WAS "a knight in shining armor looking for a damsel to worship."
That doesn't imply that what he did while he was with Dru wasn't evil. It obviously was, plus vile, abusive, violent, and downright perverted. But he was Dru's protector and defender, and in his own way he loved her with all of his shriveled up little walnut of a heart, even though she quite obviously never truly returned the emotion. Undoubtedly, at least some of the things that he did as William the Bloody were done as much to impress her as they were because of his natural vampire evilness. (This presents an intriguing question: if William had somehow fallen in love with Buffy or her Slayer predecessor after first being turned, and she had allowed him to live, would he have tried to be a hero in order to impress and gain her affection the same way that he did later with Buffy? Assuming that at least part of his actions were intended to put himself in good standing with his lady love, that would seem to be a definite possibility)

And as for the attempted rape, the only way in which I would ever support what happened there is to say that it served as the catalyst for Spike's quest to regain his soul, which is, I believe, exactly what Joss intended for it to be.

And let's consider for a moment one of the other things that his detractors like to point out: Other than the obvious initial feelings of guilt that Spike felt, regaining his soul made no real noticeable change in his personality, no equivalent of the Angelus/Angel change. Well, this might come as a shocker, but basically, the same thing could be said about Angel.

Angel regained his soul and was immediately overwhelmed by the volume and magnitude of the evil that he had, up to that point, done. Spike did the same, possibly to an even greater degree, considering that we never saw him revert to a babbling mad man at first (I may be wrong about that, but I can't remember seeing it)

Upon regaining at least some of his composure, Angel tried to return to his association with Darla and, to a degree, his old Angelus life style, though now feeding on murderers and rapists rather than babies and virgins. Spike tries to resume his association with Buffy and, to a degree, the "soulless but sort of good" life style that he had had just prior to regaining his soul, though now, instead of trying to drag Buffy into the dark with him, he tries to move into the light with her, while admitting his love for her and insisting that he now understands why she could never love him in return (which all Spuffy shippers know positively to be absolute horse apples)

Angel was told by Darla at the moment of regaining his soul that what had been done to him was wrong and that the soul diminished what he was. At that same point, Spike was told by Buffy that he could be, and was, more, not simply because of the acquisition of a soul, but because he "risked everything to become a better man."

The Angel that everyone is using as a counter to Angelus isn't what. Angel was immediately after regaining his soul. THAT Angel went right back to killing and feeding off of humans. It took a century and a half of starts and stops, more failures than victories, and hard work,to become the Angel that we first saw in "Welcome To The Hellmouth."

The "Angel was no longer Angelus after regaining his soul, but Spike is still Spike" argument is totally invalid. Give Spike another century and a half to grow into his soul, and then compare him to the Angel that Buffy first met. You will undoubtedly be comparing a brooding, reclusive, pig blood drinking vampire in a velvet blazer to the recipient of the Nobel Prize for Literature ("Ode Of A Champion To His Slayer," Volumes 1 through 36) the founder and President of the BVL (Benevolent Vampires League) and the current Director of Adopt-A-Bangel.

(And all of that comes from a guy who's still under the effects of anesthesia and morphine. Ain't drugs grand!)

 

[ladydorotea]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]

I do not want to upset you - I saw your post on the other thread , so, lets take this as a very logical and detached reply that has nothing to do with personalities, OK? I wish you the best luck and health in days to come by the way, and I will pray too.

In the mean time lets make two things clear - from my perspective all Clyde's love for his Bonnie means fig, compared to the damage they did to the folks that happened to be thrown into their path by sheer bad luck. It does not mean I don't appreciate devotion - it just means that I value compassion way more than passion.

I already said that the exact fact that attempted rape was used as a catalyst for Spike's change turns me off that story completely - because I know quite well and personally what kind of a scar attempted rape leaves on the victim and the fact that Buffy's side of the story was basically swept under the carpet - to give priority to Spike's develpment makes the story even more deplorable for me. Lets leave it here, OK?

And no, I have no desire to discuss Angel with you - because I honestly wish you the best of luck and speedy recovery.

Take care.

 

[dexeded]

Anyway, after thinking a lot more about this specific matter than I intended to, I came to this conclusion:
Angel actually can't be blamed. It is, however, completely different with Spike. It's hard to explain, but his soulless state and his souled state seem to be quite similar. If season 7 Spike lost his soul somehow, he wouldn't be that different. Before he got his soul, he wasn't really evil anymore, but was still responsible for what he did before that. Therefore, I think that souled Spike can be blamed as well.

I'm personally on the side that both should be blamed, but I'm okay with both not being blamed--but one thing I just totally disagree with is Angel being exempt and Spike being blamed (or vice versa, though I don't think anyone thinks that way). So what if Spike's soulless and soulful states are similar? He went through the exact same processes as Angel. Plus, Angel has had many years to acclimate to his soul. If you operate under the belief that Angel was a meatpuppet (which I heavily disagree with), then you also have to do the same for Spike, chip or no.

---------- Post added at 01:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:00 PM ----------
[MENTION=11961]Frooley[/MENTION]

All your posts have the whole meatpuppet thing going on, but I always just took that as Council bullshit. Slayers can't think before they slay, can't wonder if the humans still there, because then they would die. It wouldn't make any sense if Angel and Spike were totally different beings because then their journeys would be null and void. I personally think the soul is basically a moral compass.

---------- Post added at 01:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:01 PM ----------

I don't think so. Most witches ( Amy, Tara, Willow etc. ) could easily replace and outperform a brainwashed vampire. Anyway, who says the world needs champions? Angel could play the hero because the supernatural trash was kept hidden from the general population. Thanks to technology and sheer numbers the humanity is able to keep the world safe.

Willow, yes. If she doesn't get consumed with power and turn evil herself. Amy and Tara? No way. They aren't nearly powerful enough. Also, I assume you are referring to the comics in your later statement? I haven't read S9, so I can't respond to that, unfortunately... Anyway, if it's just the show, then the world obviously needs champions to stop the apocalypse. Does the government in the comics have all the resources and knowledge required to know the dark rituals and world-ending thingies? Also, there's no magic in S9 so there's nothing to keep the world safe from.

Well, a champion whose sole motivation is guilt is not a champion in my book.

One of their motivations is guilt, but they have other motivations, like just doing what's right, fighting the fight etc. My point was that no one would forgive someone (Nazi doctors in this case) who has zero guilt over what they've done.

 

[dexeded]

@Frooley agrees: As I've always said, neither Angel nor Spike should be blamed. I don't make exceptions either

Yes, I know. Those 'exception' comments were directed at JCoatsworth. My comments to you were that Angel's and Spike's journeys wouldn't make sense if they weren't culpable for their actions.

 

[EVIL UU]

Anyway, if it's just the show, then the world obviously needs champions to stop the apocalypse.

I disagree. Let's take a look at the Big Bads and some major apocalypses shall we?

Master - He needed The Slayer to get out of the underground, without her he's stuck in his church and is a non-issue.

Angelus/Spike/Drusilla - The Initiative, as incompetent as they were, contained Spike just fine.

The Judge - Defeated with technology, no Slayer/Champion needed.

Mayor - same here, technology again. Killing his demon form is trivial with modern weaponry.

Adam - He's a one-third machine and honestly, this thing is so ridiculous ( Uranium 235 core? Seriously? ) it's not even worth dissecting.

Glory - Knights Of Byzantium kill Dawn. Then they kill Ben. Done, no apocalypse.

Willow - Xander stopped her and as far as I'm concerned he's no champion, just a guy without any supernatural abilities whatsoever.

The First - Drop a big bomb into the hole. Done.

Champions are not necessary and humanity does not need them to survive. Most of the time saving the world comes down to killing some creep and killing is something the humanity is very good at, the best ever I'd say. The First has ubervamps, humanity has nuclear weapons, OK? Of course that makes the council and every other self-important self-righteous nondemocratic brainless irresponsible asshole vigilante hero wannabe irrelevant. They can't have that can they? They'd have to get a life, good heavens.

Angel and Spike could run a pig farm together or something.

 

[dexeded]

I disagree. Let's take a look at the Big Bads and some major apocalypses shall we?

Master - He needed The Slayer to get out of the underground, without her he's stuck in his church and is a non-issue.

Angelus/Spike/Drusilla - The Initiative, as incompetent as they were, contained Spike just fine.

The Judge - Defeated with technology, no Slayer/Champion needed.

Mayor - same here, technology again. Killing his demon form is trivial with modern weaponry.

Adam - He's a one-third machine and honestly, this thing is so ridiculous ( Uranium 235 core? Seriously? ) it's not even worth dissecting.

Glory - Knights Of Byzantium kill Dawn. Then they kill Ben. Done, no apocalypse.

Willow - Xander stopped her and as far as I'm concerned he's no champion, just a guy without any supernatural abilities whatsoever.

The First - Drop a big bomb into the hole. Done.

Champions are not necessary and humanity does not need them to survive. Most of the time saving the world comes down to killing some creep and killing is something the humanity is very good at, the best ever I'd say. The First has ubervamps, humanity has nuclear weapons, OK? Of course that makes the council and every other self-important self-righteous nondemocratic brainless irresponsible asshole vigilante hero wannabe irrelevant. They can't have that can they? They'd have to get a life, good heavens.

Angel and Spike could run a pig farm together or something.

But the point is that humanity doesn't know about these things. They can't drop a bomb because they don't know about demons. And for good reason. If more people knew, if the entire world knew, there'd possibly be an all-out war, or, at the very least, many more people taking advantage of the supernatural to raise havoc. Raising the good guys quota also seriously raises the bad guy quota. Keep it small and we need champions to stop apocalypses.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Short answer? No.

Long answer? Yes. Especially Spike.

Spike was always an anomaly. He could love without a soul. He could be selfless without a soul. Clearly, he'd retained some of his humanity. His personality remained largely the same with or without a soul. Some fans have a hard time reconciling his ability to love with his vicious actions. He knew the difference for right and wrong. His love of chaos and violence always won over, though. His soul is what brought him back in touch with his humanity.

Angelus was always evil with no humanity. Angel can't control Angelus. In my opinion, one can't blame Angel for Angelus. They're t

 

[iShower4free]

If we are gonna kill Angel or Spike because they MIGHT kill again I think we need to kill Willow too.

 

[Riley's Way]

I don't think they can be blamed, without souls they don't have a conscience, whether they know it's wrong or right, they have no conscience to torture them when they make the wrong choice. I actually only started to like Spike when he told Wood in the episode where he tried to kill him something like "I'm not sorry, I was a vampire, she was a slayer, that's how it works, get over it!" that was such a cool and right thing to say .. Angel is just so annoying, the person that killed all those people wasn't him, even if he has those memories, he has absolutely no reason to hold himself accountable ..

 

[sisterofmercy]

I'm not sure, but either way it should be the same for both of them. So many people dismiss Angelus' actions as being removed from Angel, but yet when it comes to Spike they don't offer the same lenience. It should either be everyone gets judged or nobody.

You could argue that the curse or Spike's anomalous personality may make things different, but I'm not entirely convinced.

 

[EVIL UU]

If more people knew, if the entire world knew, there'd possibly be an all-out war

There already is an all-out war, it's been going on since the dawn of time. Humanity needed slayers, so the human shamans created them, and champions because humans were few and scattered, physically weaker than vampires and demons. The technology made physical strength irrelevant and there are 7 billion humans now. How long do you think would vampires last against human forces? I give them 18 months.

The war is raging and humanity is finally capable of ending it once and for all. Slayers, champions and secrecy prolongs the status quo and only causes unnecessary deaths and suffering. How many people does one vampire kill every month? How many people are killed by demons every day? An all-out offensive is the only way to stop the ongoing slaughter.

Man-eating wolves used to kill hundreds of people every year in Europe up till the 16th-18th century, mostly children until they were mostly driven extinct thanks to anti-wolf laws, state-funded wolf hunters, better weapons and population growth. If humanity had dealt with wolves the same way as with vampires, there still would have been a small, insufficient number of secret wolf hunters, thousands of humans killed in a wolf attack every month and wolves would have been considered a myth.

Totally. Also, without Buffy The Master rises at The Harvest

Without Buffy The Master sits in the ruins of his church till the end of time, he needs her blood to break free.

You tried. It was noble of you. You heard the prophecy that I was about to break free and you came to stop me. But prophecies are tricky creatures. They don't tell you everything. You're the one that sets me free! If you hadn't come, I couldn't go. Think about that!

 

[iShower4free]

I'm not sure, but either way it should be the same for both of them. So many people dismiss Angelus' actions as being removed from Angel, but yet when it comes to Spike they don't offer the same lenience. It should either be everyone gets judged or nobody.

You could argue that the curse or Spike's anomalous personality may make things different, but I'm not entirely convinced.

I dont think people blamed Spike as much once he got his soul back. The problem was the souless Spike was in their lives as an "Ally" for so long that it makes it so much harder to forgive him for the more heinous things he did, like attempted rape.

 

[Robb Stark]

Gotta love it when an old thread come back to life! I don't really know why, but I just really enjoy discussing this topic 🙂

I'll make it clear that while I like both of them a lot, and that they're both two of my favorite characters in all of fiction, I think that Angel is a better character and hero than Spike. It's just a preference, and I get that not everyone thinks that way, but I've always liked Angel more. That being said, I don't think it's fair to forgive the actions of Angelus but not Spike without a soul. I realize that Spike without a soul has always been unique from other vampires (which is a big part of what makes him interesting and compelling as a character), but I just don't think it's fair to judge one but not the other.

I think it's made pretty clear that a vampire without a soul is separate from the man. Buffy says that about both of them, and even Giles, despite everything Angelus did to him, realizes that as well. I've always viewed the vampire as the demon that is born when the siring happens and the soul as the person. Angelus is the demon and Angel is the man, they just share the same body. Angelus, the demon, never truly goes away, but the soul, Angel, has been returned to the body.

Looking at it that way, I don't think Angel can be blamed in any way for what Angelus has done.

Now, at the same time I don't think this takes away, at all, from Angel's mission, his journey or his purpose. The things that Angelus did were all done in Angel's body and he remembers every bit of it. Responsible or not, that would be nearly impossible to live with. I don't believe that Angel had any discretion over what Angelus did, but to have the physical memory of all of it would be horrible, and more than explains why he feels guilt over it. The same applies to Spike. Spike has a speech, I can't remember if it's in Buffy S7 or Angel S5, where he talks about how he isn't responsible for the things done when he didn't have a soul. I can't remember the exact wording, but I really agreed with it.

Plus, if they were responsible for the things done when they didn't have souls, they wouldn't be credible heroes. If you can't differentiate between Angel/Angelus and Spike/uh...ensouled Spike, well, then they aren't heroes. I just don't believe that. Angel and Spike are two of my favorite heroes of all time.

 

[SlayerFest]

I wasn't talking about drinking and driving. I meant something like a mental illness. The insane person from my example wasn't really in control over their actions either, but yet one would probably blame them.

But you said:

Or let me put it this way: A (normal) human being murders a hundred people. But suddenly he has a change of heart and feels real bad about it. Should he still be arrested? I think he should.
It's totally different with Angel, although I still think that he should be blamed, because of the simple fact that 'his body' killed a few thousand people.

''Normal'' implies that they don't have something wrong with them mentally...and someone with a mental illness doesn't just have a change of heart. If they're arrested, diagnosed, and given medication they might have a moment of clarity or something and realize what they've done. If someone with schizophrenia kills someone while they are off medication (in this scenario they haven't been diagnosed and didn't even know what was wrong with them) I, personally, wouldn't hold them accountable. I cannot imagine having that illness, I'd probably attack someone too. There's a youtube video that simulates what it's like to have it and it was terrifying and overwhelming. You're right thought, most people would blame them, would say that they should burn in hell or be executed but I feel really sympathetic because you truly aren't in control when you are hearing voices and sometimes seeing things that are not there.

Also, Angel's body killed people, not his mind. Maybe it's just me, but if your body is doing something that your mind isn't making it do...you shouldn't be held responsible. Sure, it's completely understandable that people blame Angel or look down on him for what he did, because Angelus isn't around to blame, but in my opinion, it is different.

I also understand why some people feel as if Spike with a soul should be blamed for Spike without a soul's actions, because they don't seem to be two completely different "people" or things. The only thing that seems completely inconsistent about Spike is that he felt bad after the AR. Why would a vampire without a soul even care? Why would a vampire go out and get a soul? The way that Darla reacts to Angel when she realizes he has a soul is with disgust. Her reaction is similar to that of Buffy's when she realizes that Riley is letting those vampires bite him. Having a soul is seen as an "impure" thing (well, too pure I guess). That's never made sense to me. Sure, I guess some vampires are different than others, but Spike seems to be the only who had feelings. He cares when he sees Buffy crying on the steps when she finds out her mom has to get surgery and it just doesn't make sense to me. A vampire is supposed to lack a conscience and empathy. Every other vampire in the verse seems to lack both of those things. Ugh sorry this is so long but I don't get it!

I guess you could say that the chip changed him but...it bothers me. I mean imagine Angelus with a chip haha. He would just wage psychological warfare.

 

[JCoatsworth]

''Normal'' implies that they don't have something wrong with them mentally...

"Normal" was supposed to say that they're not vampires 😛

Also, Angel's body killed people, not his mind. Maybe it's just me, but if your body is doing something that your mind isn't making it do...you shouldn't be held responsible. Sure, it's completely understandable that people blame Angel or look down on him for what he did, because Angelus isn't around to blame, but in my opinion, it is different.

Yes, not from an objective point of view. But when you're a relative of a victim, the sole presence of that being makes them responsible, so of course you blame them, no matter if it's their mind or body who killed the victim. If it looks like the killer, it is the killer.

 

[iShower4free]

But just because biased parties put the blame on them it doesn't mean that they are actually to blame.

 

[Kenimowy]

I don't think so. I think the show made a pretty clear effort to show that Angelus and Angel are two completely different people (Episode Orpheus I think it was)
While Angel can remember what Angelus has done and vice versa, the two "personalities" obviously detest one another.

Spike IS an anomaly as most people say in that he held onto some of his humanistic behavior such as the strong need for love and companionship, and he likes to drink and eat like humans do. He is a social butterfly (hehe, Spike is a butterfly!) But that doesn't mean he should know or do any better than Angelus. Spike is exceptionally well in controlling himself without a soul for his OWN PERSONAL gain. Spike's actions without a soul are selfless. He starts to fight for the good guys for the good of everyone, not just to get brownie points from Buffy. In my mind, what he did at the end of the show for example is something only souled Spike would do. He could have easily NOT done that and went with Buffy, which I think would have been the picture if he was still without a soul.

So as others have said, one is fair for one is fair for the other. Either they are both held accountable, or neither is held accountable, but me personally, I think the souls establish a new person, so no. I do not hold them accountable.

 

[iShower4free]

I think the difference between the two of them is that the scoobies trusted vampire Spike. At least as much as you can trust a vampire with a chip stopping him from harming a human. They let Angel in but never Angelus, he was too busy trying to kill people. So it made it even harder for them to forgive Spike for at least the attempted rape.

 

[SlayerFest]

"Normal" was supposed to say that they're not vampires 😛


Yes, not from an objective point of view. But when you're a relative of a victim, the sole presence of that being makes them responsible, so of course you blame them, no matter if it's their mind or body who killed the victim. If it looks like the killer, it is the killer.

Oh okay haha and yeah I understand why he would be blamed, it makes sense. It just sucks because I try to think of it from my perspective. If there was a way to take away my empathy and just turn me into a sociopath, and I killed people, I would of course feel responsible but at the same time, someone took my ability to care for others away from me. Also, why the hell didn't the gypsies tell Angel that he wouldn't be able to experience a moment of true happiness? That would make him lose any hope he had of living a happy life, and he probably wouldn't have pursued Buffy at all because he would fear losing his soul. Also...it would ensure that he wouldn't lose it because he would make sure to take extra precautions. Of course I know why they didn't seeing as it's a plot device 😉 but still, it's not totally his fault because he had no idea what would happen.

 

[dexeded]

I get what people say about not blaming either Angel or Spike, though I disagree with that. But I still wonder, if you are a Spike fan and believe that soulless and soulful Spike are two separate entities, you are liking two separate characters, no?