Should Angel & Darla gone on longer from S2 of Angel?

[Steven123]

Well, as the title says, I know that it spanned a little bit of season 3, but should the story line involving them have been different a bit?

As it is I enjoyed the story line that was there, but think it could have been played out a little differently instead of Darla having to sacrifice her self in order for their son to be born. I think there was just a click of them being together, would of been interesting that if their son could have been born without Darla having to sacrifice her self, if the feelings and emotions she got from being pregnant could have stayed on with her etc.

Might just be me but I think that from those episode, Angel got as much peace being with Darla as he did all the other feelings, would have been pretty cool seeing them side by side in the final episode a long with Spike etc ready to take on what was to come.

 

[EarthLogic]

First of all, hello and welcome back! 🙂 I'm a relative newbie though I'm starting to feel like an old timer now.

As your question, in a word: no. I find the Angel/Darla relationship incredibly fascinating and complex but I don't think it should have lasted, for a number of reasons:

- Darla's sacrifice was a perfect way to end her story. As a vampire she was also shown to be self-serving. IMO her relationship with Angelus was about obsession, power and dark passion rather than an actual love - not even then kind of demon love that Spike and Dru had. She often leaves Angelus behind when they're both in danger, but then enjoys the power games they play when he survives and finds her again. We also see when she becomes human again that she fears death. She hates the idea of her own mortality and part of her arc in S2 is about coming to terms with that. It's what makes it so devastating when Dru turns her again because it happens right at the moment when she has accepted her own death. Her sacrifice in S3 then resolves those two things together - not only does she feel an honest, unselfish love for the first time in her life but she finally comes to accept death. I don't think seeing her alive and as part of the AI team in S5 would have been as powerful as that.

- I've always seen their relationship as standing apart from the traditional romantic 'ships' in fandom because it's all about their history. It's about how they have influenced and shaped each other rather than about whether or not they will end up together. It's also that complicated shared history which leads me to believe any future romantic relationship wouldn't have worked. To quote myself from another thread - their deep connection is precisely what makes them wrong for each other because it goes too far back and too deep. They are reflections of each other in the rawest sense so I don't think it's possible for them to not look at each other and see their whole rotten history together and that's just not healthy. To move forward they each need someone who knows/sees them differently.

, would of been interesting that if their son could have been born without Darla having to sacrifice her self, if the feelings and emotions she got from being pregnant could have stayed on with her etc.

Well those feelings wouldn't have stayed - they couldn't because the only reason she was feeling them was because she was sharing Connor's soul. Once he was born, she wouldn't have had the ability to care anymore. She'd have been more likely to kill him or try to use him to punish Angel for rejecting her.

Angel got as much peace being with Darla as he did all the other feelings,

Again I disagree. I've argued elsewhere that I do believe Angel came to love Darla in her final moments but I don't believe he ever truly loved her before that. When he was soulless he was obsessed with her but wasn't capable of love. In S2 although he cared about her, his desperation to save her was partly about what she represented - his damnation, and therefore what saving her might represent - the worthiness of his redemption. In S3 I wouldn't say he got peace from being with her; rather he was finally at peace regarding his relationship/connection to her. However that is down to the events of Reprise/Epiphany which resolved those feelings for him. He no longer obsessed over Darla because he was no longer obsessed with saving himself via her, so by the time of S3 he is much more mentally and emotionally stable and is able to offer her a purer compassion and empathy on a much more personal level.

However, I do think we should have seen a resolution to the Angel/Dru relationship in S2. That would have fit the season much better than the insanity of Pylea (even though I love Pylea)

 

[Steven123]

First of all, hello and welcome back! 🙂 I'm a relative newbie though I'm starting to feel like an old timer now.

As your question, in a word: No. I find the Angel/Darla relationship incredibly fascinating and complex but I don't think it should have lasted, for a number of reasons:

- Darla's sacrifice was a perfect way to end her story. As a vampire she was also shown to be self-serving. IMO her relationship with Angelus was about obsession, power and dark passion rather than an actual love - not even then kind of demon love that Spike and Dru had. She often leaves Angelus behind when they're both in danger, but then enjoys the power games they play when he survives and finds her again. We also see when she becomes human again that she fears death. She hates the idea of her own mortality and part of her arc in S2 is about coming to terms with that. It's what makes it so devastating when Dru turns her again because it happens right at the moment when she has accepted her own death. Her sacrifice in S3 then resolves those two things together - not only does she feel an honest, unselfish love for the first time in her life but she finally comes to accept death. I don't think seeing her alive and as part of the AI team in S5 would have been as powerful as that.

- I've always seen their relationship as standing apart from the traditional romantic 'ships' in fandom because it's all about their history. It's about how they have influenced and shaped each other rather than about whether or not they will end up together. It's also that complicated shared history which leads me to believe any future romantic relationship wouldn't have worked. To quote myself from another thread - their deep connection is precisely what makes them wrong for each other because it goes too far back and too deep. They are reflections of each other in the rawest sense so I don't think it's possible for them to not look at each other and see their whole rotten history together and that's just not healthy. To move forward they each need someone who knows/sees them differently.


Well those feelings wouldn't have stayed - they couldn't because the only reason she was feeling them was because she was sharing Connor's soul. Once he was born, she wouldn't have had the ability to care anymore. She'd have been more likely to kill him or try to use him to punish Angel for rejecting her.


Again I disagree. I've argued elsewhere that I do believe Angel came to love Darla in her final moments but I don't believe he ever truly loved her before that. When he was soulless he was obsessed with her but wasn't capable of love. In S2 although he cared about her, his desperation to save her was partly about what she represented - his damnation, and therefore what saving her might represent - the worthiness of his redemption. In S3 I wouldn't say he got peace from being with her; rather he was finally at peace regarding his relationship/connection to her. However that is down to the events of Reprise/Epiphany which resolved those feelings for him. He no longer obsessed over Darla because he was no longer obsessed with saving himself via her, so by the time of S3 he is much more mentally and emotionally stable and is able to offer her a purer compassion and empathy on a much more personal level.

I do think we should have seen a resolution to the Angel/Dru relationship in S2. That would have fit the season much better than the insanity of Pylea (even though I love Pylea)

I think we can agree that their relationship was definitely complex, dark, but also some what very passionate, in a dark way lol.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

@EarthLogic said everything I would have said. I will say that I would have been on board with Darla’s pregnancy arc in s3 ti have lasted a few more episode. Her and Wesley are the only things I liked about that season. I think Darla’s story (and Darla and Angel’s sorry) ended rather perfectly.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

She'd have been more likely to kill him or try to use him to punish Angel for rejecting her.

I don't think Darla would've killed Connor. She feared she might but, since vampires don't usually get pregnant, there's no guarantee she would've. Even in nature, animals get extremely protective over their young, there is no reason to suggest a vampire might be any different. Darla using Connor as leverage over Angel would be a guarantee in my opinion. Angel would be tied to her for the rest of eternity because they share a son and there is no way Darla wouldn't use that against him.

However, I do think we should have seen a resolution to the Angel/Dru relationship in S2.

I agree. For me the Angel/Dru dynamic is the biggest wasted opportunity in the Buffyverse. She is the worst thing that Angelus ever did, not only did he drive her insane, he then sired her so that she would suffer for all eternity. Angel should've at least struggled over what to do with Dru.

 

[EarthLogic]

I don't think Darla would've killed Connor. She feared she might but, since vampires don't usually get pregnant, there's no guarantee she would've. Even in nature, animals get extremely protective over their young, there is no reason to suggest a vampire might be any different.

No guarantee, true, but remember she's not particularly affectionate towards him before she starts to feel his soul. She tries all manner of ways to get rid of him ,calls him 'my little parasite' and even when she does realise she loves him she thinks all she can offer him when he's born is 'ugly death' and she begs Angel to not let her hurt him. So I think it's very likely that while she may have shown some recognition of kinship, perhaps wryly or reluctantly, she wouldn't have gone as far as being protective. Without her soul she probably would have found him a repulsive reminder of humanity and mortality.

For me the Angel/Dru dynamic is the biggest wasted opportunity in the Buffyverse. She is the worst thing that Angelus ever did, not only did he drive her insane, he then sired her so that she would suffer for all eternity. Angel should've at least struggled over what to do with Dru.

Yeah I think having Dru just disappear from L.A. after the incineration thing was a waste of her character. I don't blame the writers though as it seems they couldn't have done much else since Juliet wasn't available for filming.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

No guarantee, true, but remember she's not particularly affectionate towards him before she starts to feel his soul. She tries all manner of ways to get rid of him ,calls him 'my little parasite' and even when she does realise she loves him she thinks all she can offer him when he's born is 'ugly death' and she begs Angel to not let her hurt him. So I think it's very likely that while she may have shown some recognition of kinship, perhaps wryly or reluctantly, she wouldn't have gone as far as being protective. Without her soul she probably would have found him a repulsive reminder of humanity and mortality.

True, but Connor would still have been a means to an end and would still give her a hold over Angel. Darla would definitely have used Connor and probably rubbed it in Buffy's face that she had Angel's child.

 

[EarthLogic]

True, but Connor would still have been a means to an end and would still give her a hold over Angel. Darla would definitely have used Connor and probably rubbed it in Buffy's face that she had Angel's child.

Agreed - IMO it would be one (possibly both) of those outcomes: either repulsed and willing to destroy or willing to use him to hurt Angel (or Buffy)

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

I think the character could not have survived past the birth of Connor, and I thought the selfless death was about a good as an ending as she could hope for. I mean, how many vampires with souls does this show need? She seems to be in heaven now, if you take her last appearance at face value (There is no reason to do so, I'll admit) But, I would not object to either human or vampire Darla getting a few more episodes in some other capacity.

 

[Steven123]

I think for me it was just one of those where you seen their past together, but you wanted to see more, you knew how long they had been together and thought that it could have went on longer. We know that in Angel and Buffy that nothing is really impossible RE would Darla have still of had feelings for the kid if she had survived? I mean Vampires don't get pregnant, but she did, so we can't really take that as it as and then assume that even though she thought she would, that she would have no sort of feelings for Conor either. Since she appears to him in visions and tries to guide him, we will have to assume that she went on to a higher/better place, and was human again obviously, even that could have brought about a few more episodes, Darla returning to Angel to help him through losing Conor, and so on.

Post automatically merged: Mar 25, 2018

Besides when you look at Elisabeth and James from Angel (Heartthrob) when you have the flashback to when they traveled with Angelus & Darla, you could say that they were very much "in love", when Angel kills Elisabeth, James is struck down with grief, anger etc over his "love" being killed, and goes on to state to Angel that if he truly loved someone he wouldn't be able to live (to which Angel says his true love, Buffy, is dead), so surely Vampires, or at least some, must know and feel what love is, at least going on from what James said and did after Elisabeth's death.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

so surely Vampires, or at least some, must know and feel what love is, at least going on from what James said and did after Elisabeth's death.

I agree. Also Spike very much loved Dru and Dru said that vampires can love well, if not wisely. I think vampires can genuinely love in their own way, even if it doesn't meet the "standards" of souled love. That doesn't mean that vampire love isn't real, just that it has its own set of rules.

Given that the show is set around the scoobies, there is a human view bias to it, hence why the audience is meant to side with Buffy when she claims the "love" Spike feels for her isn't real despite him claiming that it is. It's also why Spike's chip is treated as a joke. If the show had been from the view of the vampires, then Buffy would come off as an absolute bitch and the chip would be seen as a gross violation.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Besides when you look at Elisabeth and James from Angel (Heartthrob) when you have the flashback to when they traveled with Angelus & Darla, you could say that they were very much "in love", when Angel kills Elisabeth, James is struck down with grief, anger etc over his "love" being killed, and goes on to state to Angel that if he truly loved someone he wouldn't be able to live (to which Angel says his true love, Buffy, is dead), so surely Vampires, or at least some, must know and feel what love is, at least going on from what James said and did after Elisabeth's death.

Love for demons is not the love we know, as it's tied into their obsessions as well as other selfish things. And even there some of them vary. James is like Spike (btw the name thing is so damn obvious what parallel they were going for), their kind of love is all about possession/obsession not just with the woman in question but love itself. When the woman leaves (death, break up, rejection etc.) they completely self destruct. James literally killed himself to avenge the death of his lover and because he couldn't live without her. Spike turned into a mess when Dru left him and eventually killed himself because Buffy couldn't love who he was.

Angelus and Darla were never about any kind of love and they didn't pretend to be. It was all about darkness, death, pain, torture etc.. Darla was his mother/sire, teacher and the one who in Angel's own words 'damned him'. Their whole history is so toxic in every way (unsouled/souled/human) that there should never have been even an attempt at a relationship. I mean Darla freaking raped him in his sleep and I rather not have another Spuffy relationship where the hero suffers sexual violation and then is all starry-eyed and 'in love' with the one who did that to them.

 

[Steven123]

I agree. Also Spike very much loved Dru and Dru said that vampires can love well, if not wisely. I think vampires can genuinely love in their own way, even if it doesn't meet the "standards" of souled love. That doesn't mean that vampire love isn't real, just that it has its own set of rules.

Given that the show is set around the scoobies, there is a human view bias to it, hence why the audience is meant to side with Buffy when she claims the "love" Spike feels for her isn't real despite him claiming that it is. It's also why Spike's chip is treated as a joke. If the show had been from the view of the vampires, then Buffy would come off as an absolute bitch and the chip would be seen as a gross violation.

Agree. There are certain episodes, more so of Angel obviously, where you look back at them in the past, the acts that Angelus & Darla carry out are obviously evil, but it's evil pleasure to them that they thrive on and it's ultimately what kept them together for as long as it did. Darla took it personally when she knew that Angel's only real love was and was always going to be Buffy.

As you said, love comes in many shapes and forms. I think though the first few episodes of Buffy, especially with her and Angel, was there to challenge any views that only humans could love humans basically.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I mean Darla freaking raped him in his sleep and I rather not have another Spuffy relationship where the hero suffers sexual violation and then is all starry-eyed and 'in love' with the one who did that to them.

I think an exploration of the Darla/Angel relationship would've been so much more interesting than Spuffy. Not only because I think Spike belongs with Dru (that'll never change, he was happy with her, not miserable like he was with Buffy), but because Dangel throws up a subject that doesn't get much exploration even in today's tv climate and that is female on male rape. Male rape is not as widely discussed (Coronation Street's current male rape storylne is seen as "ground breaking" and a helpline for male rape survivors has seen a 1700% rise in calls since the storyline started airing).

We should've seen Angel's reaction to the violation (he is souled, Darla is not), his conflict because it's Darla and they've known each other intimately for centuries, his confusion over what happened, his feelings on the matter, where he feels it puts him in regards to Buffy, etc. Angel's not a big talker at the best of times, so you would have him further isolating himself from the AI team because of the "shame" he feels at being violated, add in that Darla then gets pregnant with Connor, and you've got a whole mess of opportunities that could've been explored instead of brushed under the carpet. Darla knows Angel so she could easily manipulate him, she could even rope in Dru as an unwitting accomplice, just so that she can play on Angel's guilt over what Angelus did to her.

 

[Steven123]

Love for demons is not the love we know, as it's tied into their obsessions as well as other selfish things. And even there some of them vary. James is like Spike (btw the name thing is so damn obvious what parallel they were going for), their kind of love is all about possession/obsession not just with the woman in question but love itself. When the woman leaves (death, break up, rejection etc.) they completely self destruct. James literally killed himself to avenge the death of his lover and because he couldn't live without her. Spike turned into a mess when Dru left him and eventually killed himself because Buffy couldn't love who he was.

Angelus and Darla were never about any kind of love and they didn't pretend to be. It was all about darkness, death, pain, torture etc.. Darla was his mother/sire, teacher and the one who in Angel's own words 'damned him'. Their whole history is so toxic in every way (unsouled/souled/human) that there should never have been even an attempt at a relationship. I mean Darla freaking raped him in his sleep and I rather not have another Spuffy relationship where the hero suffers sexual violation and then is all starry-eyed and 'in love' with the one who did that to them.

Very much agree with your last part in general, RE the rape etc.

How ever the I would argue on your first point that love is very much subjective. What you feel as love or what actions you take for love, some people won't, and will do different things all for the same thing. Love is individual to every person and couple in my opinion. As you said, James couldn't live without her, if dying to him was the only way that he seen, as he said he had lost "everything", that in it's self is his form of love, and even in the real world, that is the same for a lot of people, when they lose someone who they love more than anything, they can't go on, they self destruct and become destructive to things around them, it's not so much of a difference when you look at it like that.

Post automatically merged: Mar 25, 2018

I think an exploration of the Darla/Angel relationship would've been so much more interesting than Spuffy. Not only because I think Spike belongs with Dru (that'll never change, he was happy with her, not miserable like he was with Buffy), but because Dangel throws up a subject that doesn't get much exploration even in today's tv climate and that is female on male rape. Male rape is not as widely discussed (Coronation Street's current male rape storylne is seen as "ground breaking" and a helpline for male rape survivors has seen a 1700% rise in calls since the storyline started airing).

We should've seen Angel's reaction to the violation (he is souled, Darla is not), his conflict because it's Darla and they've known each other intimately for centuries, his confusion over what happened, his feelings on the matter, where he feels it puts him in regards to Buffy, etc. Angel's not a big talker at the best of times, so you would have him further isolating himself from the AI team because of the "shame" he feels at being violated, add in that Darla then gets pregnant with Connor, and you've got a whole mess of opportunities that could've been explored instead of brushed under the carpet. Darla knows Angel so she could easily manipulate him, she could even rope in Dru as an unwitting accomplice, just so that she can play on Angel's guilt over what Angelus did to her.

Agree, the story line still had a lot of potential and could of went further. I think the biggest down side was that even later on during the Conor/Jasmin/Cordelia saga, it would have been interesting to have had Darla in it for at least a whole episode as such rather than short flash backs, I felt that would have offered a lot more at the time, even that flash back where she tries to steer Conor the right way was very underwhelming in the end. As Darla said to Angel when she came back as human, there was a time when Angel would have looked as her as the definition of bliss, and there was no argument back from that from him. While it's easy to agree as well that their relationship was heavily based around suffering, torment and causing harm to others, Angel would always claim (obviously back when he didn't have his soul, that it was the world that was boring, and it was Darla that was full of surprises) , they needed each other then for what they were and what they wanted to do, and when Darla was human, she said the same, she needed Angel then just as she always had.

Buffy will probably always be the one that will hold the true love status obviously, but after the many years that Angel and Darla had together, it's hard to argue that there was something there.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

If Angel and Darla had been in Season 5 of Buffy, then there would've been the perfect love square with Buffy, Riley, Angel and Darla.

Riley would be jealous of Angel
Darla would be jealous of Buffy
Buffy would've been jealous of Darla and Angel would've been jealous of Riley, yet Angel and Buffy know they can't be together because of the consequences.

 

[Steven123]

If Angel and Darla had been in Season 5 of Buffy, then there would've been the perfect love square with Buffy, Riley, Angel and Darla.

Riley would be jealous of Angel
Darla would be jealous of Buffy
Buffy would've been jealous of Darla and Angel would've been jealous of Riley, yet Angel and Buffy know they can't be together because of the consequences.

Riley fights with Angel due to Riley being jealous that Buffy is jealous of Angel being with Darla, Darla fights Buffy because Angel is jealous of Riley and they are fighting anyway, Angel would see that Buffy is fighting because she is jealous, Buffy would see Angel is fighting because he is jealous, they stop mid fight to confess that their feelings for each other will never change, Riley walks away upset, Darla disappears as she did in AtS, and all is as it should be lol.

 

[Mr Trick]

No I thought the length was about right and it was one of the best storylines probably of either show. As I said elsewhere I wanted more Darla and Dru😀