Should Cordelia have been in the finale?

[VisionGuy]

In the spirit of the Faith and Buffy thread, I decided to start one asking if Cordy should have been in the finale. I felt really bad that she wasn't in it. She was VERY important to the show and to Angel and it sucks that she wasn't there to help in some way with the apocalypse. The episode "You're Welcome" gave some great Cordy closure but she said three words that always had me thinking she was gonna show up again, "Be seeing you." But alas I was disappointed by her absence. What do you guys think?

 

[Kimm]

I would have really liked to see her in the finale....I didn't like the fact that she left the show for season 5 and I didn't really feel like there was enough closure given with her.

Cordy was there from the very beginning and was an important character throughout....it didn't feel right that she wasn't there at the end.

 

[The Arcane]

I don't know. For me there was already more than enough having to be squeezed into the finale for them to try include Cordy as well, not to mention explain why and how she was back again.

You're Welcome was a terrific end to her role in the series and when all is said and done she did play an important part. It was the vision she gave to Angel that allowed him to discover the Circle in the first place.

I think bringing her back again so soon after You're Welcome would have severly damaged the power of that episode and felt forced. Better that she have an entire episode all of her own as her last goodbye then to be squeezed into the action of Not Fade Away.

 

[Kimm]

I don't know. For me there was already more than enough having to be squeezed into the finale for them to try include Cordy as well, not to mention explain why and how she was back again.

You're Welcome was a terrific end to her role in the series and when all is said and done she did play an important part. It was the vision she gave to Angel that allowed him to discover the Circle in the first place.

I think bringing her back again so soon after You're Welcome would have severly damaged the power of that episode and felt forced. Better that she have an entire episode all of her own as her last goodbye then to be squeezed into the action of Not Fade Away.

I agree that it wouldn't have been effective to bring her back at that time.

I wasn't really clear with what I meant. lol I think she should have been there at the end but by that I meant they shouldn't have gotten rid of her in the first place.

Bringing her back after the fact wouldn't have worked properly in my opinion.

 

[The Arcane]

I agree that it wouldn't have been effective to bring her back at that time.

I wasn't really clear with what I meant. lol I think she should have been there at the end but by that I meant they shouldn't have gotten rid of her in the first place.

Bringing her back after the fact wouldn't have worked properly in my opinion.

Yeah, i'd agree on that. It's a great shame that Cordy wasn't a real part of season five but that is the way it works in television sometimes. It's a good thing that we got the closure of the character that we did get though. It would have been much worse if they had not bothered and simply left Cordy in the coma state for good.

 

[Lyri]

yes, Cordelia should have been in the finale...but maybe not her in person...am i making sense?
i would have liked to have seen her maybe in a flash back, or a vision or something.
just some little mention of Cordy would ahve been awesome and made a great episode into a FANTASTIC episode.

 

[VisionGuy]

It would have been cool if they flashed an image of Cordy, Fred, and Doyle when Hamilton was mentioning them. That way, Cordy and Doyle would have been in the episode without actually being in it. You know what I mean? But I do agree about it being complicated having her come back again. I just thought that she would come back somewhere down the line cause she told Angel she'd be seeing him. But they cancelled the show so I guess none of us will be seeing him anymore except for in re-runs.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

We as loyal Viewers were robbed.
Nothing less then robbed.
I love Spike, i Love Illyria.....heck i'm even Partial to Gunn(early seasons he is fab....but i got a bit bored with him)....BUT to me the three that should have been standing side by side in that Alley way was Angel flanked by Wesley and Cordelia....maybe Gunn still mortally wounded.

As for the whole, her character was perfectly finished in NFA, yes i'll give you that......BUT to me, the writers could have been clever enough to work it out.........

And i dont think Cordelia added to a story like the Powerplay/NFA would have been too much. Buffy takes away from the essence of the show if she'd been in the final BUT for me Cordelia is as much the foundation of AtS as Angel himself....so her inclusion would never been too much.....hell they should have made NFA 2 hours TVM......that would have dealt with any issues.....

 

[The Arcane]

We as loyal Viewers were robbed.
Nothing less then robbed.
I love Spike, i Love Illyria.....heck i'm even Partial to Gunn(early seasons he is fab....but i got a bit bored with him)....BUT to me the three that should have been standing side by side in that Alley way was Angel flanked by Wesley and Cordelia....maybe Gunn still mortally wounded.

As for the whole, her character was perfectly finished in NFA, yes i'll give you that......BUT to me, the writers could have been clever enough to work it out.........

And i dont think Cordelia added to a story like the Powerplay/NFA would have been too much. Buffy takes away from the essence of the show if she'd been in the final BUT for me Cordelia is as much the foundation of AtS as Angel himself....so her inclusion would never been too much.....hell they should have made NFA 2 hours TVM......that would have dealt with any issues.....

Agreed, in an idea world. The problem is though that the fang gang didn't live in an ideal world. Whilst i did miss Cordy in season five i think that her death before the end of the season spoke a lot more truth about the nature of the lives they were leading than some heroic final stand together ever could.

Sometimes even the greatest heroes have totally undeserved, senseless deaths. Cordy did deserve a hell of a lot better than how she went out (as a puppet of Jasmine) but just because she deserved better didn't mean she had to get it. Fighting evil means that you have to expect to die at any time. Not just in the epic moments of historic battles. To have had Wes and Cordy at Angel's side at the end would have been fantastic but the truth was that they were gone. They had already fallen, same as Doyle all those years earlier.

The writers did exactly the right thing in not coming up with some lame, contrived way to have Cordy back alongside Angel just so that it would please the fans. Sure, there are probably a dozen ways that they possibly could have had Cordy back at the end, maybe even decided to not have killed off Wesley so that all three of them could have stood side by side in the alley that night, but would Not Fade Away have been anywhere near as powerful an episode if they had done that? Hell, would the entire final season be anywhere near as deeply loved as it has become if there hadn't been such a sense of loss?

Nope, we weren't robbed. In season five of Angel we were given a gift.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

We were totally robbed.
Cordelia was a an integral member of the show and team. I liked her final moments in You're Welcome, BUT it was on the cards that season 5 would have been the last season anyway, and Joss had made the arrangements for this.....he hoped for the best, planned for the worst...as anyone should.
You're Welcome, could easily have been tweaked to let it be left open for Cordelia withough taking anything away from that episode.....heck, we are led to believe that when you die, its not the end.......i get this from the fact Skip infers that Cordelia was in Paradise...and that Buffy was in Paradise....Cordelia still was working...thus if they were in the same place(that both came back from) then it could be dfone, believably in the context of the show, that she could be with her Champ.
Instead, our last Episode with her is some shitty one where Lindsay Mc'Boring-pointless git'Donald is the 'Big Bad'. IF that episode hadn't been Cordelias last one....if she hadn't died...no one would look fondly on that trash...the Zombies in the basement...puhlease......
But the discussion isnt about You're Welcome its about Cordelias right to be standing in that Alleyway.
I do agree that its not always the 'destiny' for the hero to be at the final battle, but in this case, Cordelia had a right. Wesley was killed of in that Episode, in a seen that totally betrays the man we know(why would Wesley think he could best Vail with that weak ass magic).
Yes, i was touched by his death, i truly was and the Illyria/Fred thing was beautiful, but i can live without that, as could many fans......
Kill Gunn off fighting the Vampires....thats how he'd want to go...and that would be a big shock for the viewer......But Wesley, he had no right to die.

No, both characters had a beautiful ending....but it wasn't the right one....not at all.

 

[Schillaci]

What he said. But with a bit more of a threat at the end.:2guns:

 

[Cordelia Chase*]

Cordelia should have been there! She was with Angel from the beginning and not the END? That sucks!!!!! Cordelia had enough fire power to kick ass!!!

 

[The Arcane]

We were totally robbed.
Cordelia was a an integral member of the show and team. I liked her final moments in You're Welcome, BUT it was on the cards that season 5 would have been the last season anyway, and Joss had made the arrangements for this.....he hoped for the best, planned for the worst...as anyone should.
You're Welcome, could easily have been tweaked to let it be left open for Cordelia withough taking anything away from that episode.....heck, we are led to believe that when you die, its not the end.......i get this from the fact Skip infers that Cordelia was in Paradise...and that Buffy was in Paradise....Cordelia still was working...thus if they were in the same place(that both came back from) then it could be dfone, believably in the context of the show, that she could be with her Champ.
Instead, our last Episode with her is some shitty one where Lindsay Mc'Boring-pointless git'Donald is the 'Big Bad'. IF that episode hadn't been Cordelias last one....if she hadn't died...no one would look fondly on that trash...the Zombies in the basement...puhlease......
But the discussion isnt about You're Welcome its about Cordelias right to be standing in that Alleyway.
I do agree that its not always the 'destiny' for the hero to be at the final battle, but in this case, Cordelia had a right. Wesley was killed of in that Episode, in a seen that totally betrays the man we know(why would Wesley think he could best Vail with that weak ass magic).
Yes, i was touched by his death, i truly was and the Illyria/Fred thing was beautiful, but i can live without that, as could many fans......
Kill Gunn off fighting the Vampires....thats how he'd want to go...and that would be a big shock for the viewer......But Wesley, he had no right to die.

No, both characters had a beautiful ending....but it wasn't the right one....not at all.

Okay, even if we try to avoid the issue if whether or not Charisma actually wanted to do any further episodes, or even had the time to return for the finale, we still cannot ignore that the show was only ever going to happen the way that Joss envisioned and he sure as hell didn't want to rewrite his plans for the end of season five simply because it was now going to be the end of the series.

We all know that Not Fade Away was left almost exactly the way it was originally written even for a season, rather than series, finale. He doesn't rewrite things just to make everything better and happier because he doesn't write shows that are convinient and happy. He writes about the realities of life, even in the fantasy of the supernatural.

You could say why leave them all in that alley at all? Why not totally rewrite the last few episodes so that the series ends on a high, with Angel and all his allies, Cordy magically resurrected included, having defeated the Senior Partners altogether. Have them all sat around smiling and laughing, joking about the previous five years?

Why not? Because it would be too damn convinient and make for incredibly dull, sucky television.

Cartoons have happy endings where all the good guys fight the good fight, never get hurt and defeat the bad guys so that they can walk away at the end. Angel was not a cartoon though, it was a show for the grownups. It was a show about loss and where things weren't happy and perfect. In fact, Angel's life was about as far from being perfect as you could imagine. Cordelia's loss was unfortunate and it is a great shame that we can't all have seen her stood with Angel at the end but that isn't what Joss wanted to happen and in the big picture of the series he made exactly the right choice. Bringing her back would have been a disaster.

Her ending might not have been the right one, in your opinion, but it was the right one in Joss' mind, and i happen to agree with him 100% because i can't imagine how having Cordy there at the end would have improved anything at all. In fact it would more likely have taken something away from the power of the last two episodes, not to mention have ruined You're Welcome entirely.

 

[THE BLUE]

First of all, it was an abrupt cut of an ending, so I didn't like it that much. Season 5 was a wild drive, maybe it had to be that way or maybe with the show ending on a last notice it was written that way, anyway, Cordelia is best left out in the finale and had a chance to do a cameo in the last season which is more than I can say for the BTVS finale.

 

[watcher1006]

"You're Welcome" was a great episode and a fitting departure for Cordelia. I suspect that if the Angel creators had wanted her to be in the finale (and assuming that CC would have been available) there were more episodes than just that one episode that would have been written differently.

A flashback, a memory of Cordelia might have been nice to see but "Not Fade Away" was quite packed with story as it was, not a whole lot of time to add more. In any case "You're Welcome" was centered on Charisma Carpenter's Cordelia, she didn't have to share the stage with all the other characters who were making their last appearances.

Edit-Addition: Possible Buffy Spoiler-

Regarding the last point I've seen fans complain that Anya's death didn't get the attention it deserved in the Buffy finale "Chosen", because there was so much else going on.

 

[Kimm]

I still feel that Cordy should have been in the final battle. Though I can see it from both sides I just can't shake the feeling that it wasn't right for her not to be there.

She was there right from the beginning (not only in AtS but also in BtVS) so it would only have made sense for her to see it through and be there in the end.

I admit to feeling somewhat robbed by the way she went out. Her character was much too important and worth so much more than how they killed her off in my opinion.

 

[Angel's vision]

I still feel that Cordy should have been in the final battle. Though I can see it from both sides I just can't shake the feeling that it wasn't right for her not to be there.

She was there right from the beginning (not only in AtS but also in BtVS) so it would only have made sense for her to see it through and be there in the end.

I admit to feeling somewhat robbed by the way she went out. Her character was much too important and worth so much more than how they killed her off in my opinion.

Yes quite couldn't of put it better.
She deserved better than what the powers offered her.

 

[VisionGuy]

I agree with DDLM. Cordy and Wesley were Angel's "scoobies" and even though their deaths were what you can call great and heroic, I still got really pissed when they went. I loved the eipsode "You're Welcome" but I don't think that the episode was her good-bye. We didn't even know she was leaving for good until three minutes before the episode ended. I think that it would have been possible for her to come back without there being a big explanation that took like half the episode. I understand everyone's views and they are very good points. But Wesley and Cordy were along with Angel, the foundation of the show. Imagine if Joss had killed off Xander and Willow. The show would not have been the same and some of you would probably have stopped watching. To tell you the truth, the only reason I watched AtS after You're Welcome is because I thought Cordy was coming back. Not that it wasn't great TV but when they took her off the cast, the show took a turn for the worst. The writers knew that because they had to put Spike in there to keep things fresh. And although I think that season 5 was very good, I'm sure it would have been a lot better if Cordy was in there.

Oh and yes, Cordy and Wesley should have been in the alley. I mean it wouldn't be the first time someone comes from the dead.

 

[The Arcane]

I don't know. I honestly feel that the message of the final scene of Angel was so powerful in it's honesty. There was never a truer image that Angel the Series was not Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

At the end of Buffy there had been losses. Spike was (temporarily) dusted and Anya had fallen, as well as a number of slayers, but you still had what was the closest thing to a happy ending you could have imagined. The core four Scoobies were still alive, as well as Dawn, Faith, Andrew, Robin and what remained of the slayers. More importantly the battle was won, the First was defeated and the Hellmouth closed for business.

Now contrast that with the end of Angel. There was no final victory. The Senior Partners were still extremely powerful and had just sent what appeared to be their entire earthbound army against what was left of Angel's team. A team that consisted of a wounded human, an Old One who had only recently caused the death of one of his friends and another vampire with a soul that Angel could barely stand to be around the majority of the time. Not exactly that last scene in Chosen now was it?

The very fact that his "Scoobies" (Doyle, Cordy and Wes) weren't there with him at the end said everything to me about what Angel's life was truly about. Fighting and loss. You can argue all you want about whether Cordy and Wes deserved to be there but you can't argue that Angel, as a series, was never meant to be Buffy 2 and that final scene when compared to the final scene of Buffy was the most graphic representation of that possible.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

The Shows were very different, thats a given, it was beaten into us with every single episode, BUT the finale of both wasn't as different as you are making out. The finales of Buffy and Angel were about hope.

Angels decision(some might call it selfish) to take out the Senior Partners emmisaries, thus causing his own death(probably), and taking out not 1 but 3 champions(not including Illyria, we have Gunn and Wesley on that), was not about the loss of anything, it was about the fight back, the we will not surrender, and the subsequient hope that comes from that.
With that hope though, comes this sacrifice that i mentioned, which i fully understand, BUT that does not negate from mine(and obviously others) opinions that standing next to Angel, fighting his cause, Wesley and Cordelia(and yes, even Doyle-were it possible) should have been there, standing side by side with their hero, their champion.......showing that the fight, though may live on, may take its casualties, never takes the human spirit to live on. The fact that the only person in that alley that is Human is mortally wounded, and that Angel, Spike and Illyria are the carcasses of humans, is unfair to the message that Humanity will prevail, simply because in that Alley, it isnt Humans fighting.
We could have a big discussion about the nature of 'Soul' if thats where humanity lies, but that again is not the issue, the issue is that Cordelia was the heart of Humanity, she embodied that, she had the right to be there to show this, to show that we will prevail.