Should Cordelia have been in the finale?

[The Arcane]

I never said that the decisions Angel made were about loss, i said that the message Joss was giving to us was about loss.

Also, you are getting the concepts of hope and happiness mixed up. Of course the final episode of Angel left us with a feeling of hope. Otherwise the final scene would have been the dead remains of Illyria and Gunn and two ensouled piles of dust. Hope is always there as long as your heroes live.

The symbolism i'm talking about, the true difference between Chosen and Not Fade Away, is not about hope, it's about loss and the different ways that a champions life can develop. With Buffy you had a final scene of ultimate triumph, where most of the people she knew and nearly all of the people she truly loved, were stood at her side. In Angel you had our hero facing unimaginable odds with nearly everything and everyone he really cared about already either dead or on the brink of destruction. Did hope exist in both examples? Of course it did. But was the message at the end of Angel supposed to be that if you fight evil then you can walk away with all your friends and move to Europe?

No, it was that the fight, no matter how much it costs you, has to be fought, even if sometimes it costs you everything you love, as had happened to Angel.

 

[Angel's vision]

I absoluty agree with you watcher that was superb!
I could not of put it better myself.
Although i do still think that Cordy should of been there....

 

[The Arcane]

I absoluty agree with you watcher that was superb!
I could not of put it better myself.
Although i do still think that Cordy should of been there....

Thanks AV. Regarding your final comment, if it makes any difference, a small part of me wishes that Cordy could have been there at the end too but then again a part of me wishes that nothing bad had ever happened to her and that she and Angel had lived happily ever after. Only problem is that Joss had a different message to send and a different story to tell.

 

[Ethereal Warrior]

Yeah, I would have liked her in the finale. I think having her there, appearing in the last moments before they went off to fight all those demons would have been a great way to see her again. She'd inspire them and give them hope before the fight that could, ultimately, be their last. It would be a nice way to, for once, bring in TPTB and show Angel and the gang that higher purposes are at work and that Angel did the right thing by trying to take down the most powerful of the dark forces.

 

[galathea]

Okay thought I might as well throw in my 2 cents ...

I am in between The Watcher and DDLM in this point. When we look at S5 how it DID happen, there is no way that a somehow magically resurrected Cordelia fit in the final arc of the CotB. That would have indeed cheapend the message of You're Welcome.

My anger is about the fact that Cordelia was left out in S5 at all. And we can all talk about how realistic it is that in the end not everybody makes it, but as DDLM already said, if anybody belonged in that season and that finale it was Cordy. She had the right to be redeemed in the viewers eyes after being a puppet of Jasmine a whole season long and I don't buy Whedons *Her story was finished*-company line for a second.

Truth is, Whedon hadn't even planned to give her the You're Welcome closure. He planned on having SMG in that episode. It was David Fury who insisted on a proper closure for that character. And The Watcher, as for Joss doing things as he *envisions* them, he had no problems screwing with character integrity and development for serving a fanbase in Chosen. He was attacked by the huge Bangel community when he paired Cordy up with Angel and hastily went into retreat.

I don't mind Cordy dying in the cause of fighting for the mission. It's what all these characters are about, but it's the how that greatly irks me, because I don't think its the way the character demanded it, but results from other RL issues. So yes, I would want Cordy in the finale, but only after having her in the whole season.

 

[The Arcane]

And The Watcher, as for Joss doing things as he *envisions* them, he had no problems screwing with character integrity and development for serving a fanbase in Chosen. He was attacked by the huge Bangel community when he paired Cordy up with Angel and hastily went into retreat.

That had nothing to do with the Bangel fans at all. if Joss really cared about what they were saying then he would never have gone ahead with Buffy and Spike. As far as Joss was concerned Buffy and Angel were over and Angel and Cordy were starting to develop a relationship.

What changed those plans was Charisma falling pregnant and that having to be written into the show's storylines. There was simply no way that the original storyline planned could go ahead as he had envisioned and so that plan was altered. Ultimately though, that was a change of unavoidable logistics and not one brought about by pressure from the fans. If Joss possibly could have stuck to his original idea then he would have.

 

[galathea]

That had nothing to do with the Bangel fans at all. if Joss really cared about what they were saying then he would never have gone ahead with Buffy and Spike. As far as Joss was concerned Buffy and Angel were over and Angel and Cordy were starting to develop a relationship.

Yeah, that's true. He started C/A because for him B/A was over. But soon B/A fans all over the world started attacking him. Joss said in an interview they basically chased him with torches through the streets. I am not talking about S4 here, Cordelia should have been the Big Bad all along even if she hadn't become pregnant. That simply lead to the ConCord/Jasmine storyline. But Whedon stated himself in the audiocommentary that Chosen was for the B/A fanbase. And he neglected everything that happened on AtS for that scene.

 

[The Arcane]

Yeah, that's true. He started C/A because for him B/A was over. But soon B/A fans all over the world started attacking him. Joss said in an interview they basically chased him with torches through the streets. I am not talking about S4 here, Cordelia should have been the Big Bad all along even if she hadn't become pregnant. That simply lead to the ConCord/Jasmine storyline. But Whedon stated himself in the audiocommentary that Chosen was for the B/A fanbase. And he neglected everything that happened on AtS for that scene.

Agreed about that scene in Chosen. For that kiss to happen all the feelings between Angel and Cordy, not to mention Buffy and Spike, had to be put on one side, at least temporarily. That was totally done for the Bangel crowd but i think that Joss would have done that scene regardless as a full circle kind of statement for the last episodes of the show.

Again though, Joss received just as much hassle from the Bangelers when he got Buffy together with Riley and later Spike. It was certainly not made any more difficult for him when he chose to have Angel discover his growing feelings for Cordy. No way was he going to have split Angel and Cordy up if the pregancy issue hadn't come along and certainly not because of fans demanding it. Cordy originally was planned to simply be the host of Jasmine, rather than the mother, and eventually be freed from the possession and return to her old self at seasons end. Obviously that had to change and then the issues that led to Charisma leaving the show prevented any chance of picking up where Angel and Cordy had left off.

There were a lot of factors that went into Angel and Cordy not ending up together but fan demands was never one of them. Joss doesn't work that way.

 

[galathea]

Agreed about that scene in Chosen. For that kiss to happen all the feelings between Angel and Cordy, not to mention Buffy and Spike, had to be put on one side, at least temporarily. That was totally done for the Bangel crowd but i think that Joss would have done that scene regardless as a full circle kind of statement for the last episodes of the show.

Angel coming in for Chosen was at least also partially to acknowlege the huge contribution that this character made to BtVS. I have no problems with that. But the way it was done annoys me to death 😀

Again though, Joss received just as much hassle from the Bangelers when he got Buffy together with Riley and later Spike. It was certainly not made any more difficult for him when he chose to have Angel discover his growing feelings for Cordy.

That's true. The Bangel community didn't accept change for Buffy OR Angel 🙂

No way was he going to have split Angel and Cordy up if the pregancy issue hadn't come along and certainly not because of fans demanding it. Cordy originally was planned to simply be the host of Jasmine, rather than the mother, and eventually be freed from the possession and return to her old self at seasons end. Obviously that had to change and then the issues that led to Charisma leaving the show prevented any chance of picking up where Angel and Cordy had left off.

I don't think so. I am convinced he would have split up the both of them, even without CCs pregnancy. As far as I know, Jasmine wasn't even part of the S4 arc and only added because of the pregnancy. I heard, that Cordelia actually should have gone really evil, instead of only being the host for the evil thing. Which of course would have a similar effect on the C/A relationship. Happy couples are just not Whedons thing LOL.

Actually I don't mind the fact that they finally never came together, it's not what I expect of a Whedon show anyways. I also didn't mean to say, that I think that in the end C/A didn't happen because of B/A protests, I simply meant, that he had no problem screwing character development for a fanbase, hence the scene in Chosen.

But I do think that Whedons ego is really big and that he indeed isn't as free of other peoples opinions when developing a show as he pretends to be.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Just to go off topic for a sec about that scene in chosen, I think that scene makes sense, (although I am a bangeler), Buffy and angel were Truly in Love, think about the thing spike said in Season 3 Love isn't brains it's Blood, screaming for you to do it's will, Or something like that, so as hard as they try Buffy and angel are meant to be together, this scene proves it, they only go with other people because they can't be together. and I think it was part of the development, not just something Joss stuck in!

Truth is, Whedon hadn't even planned to give her the You're Welcome closure. He planned on having SMG in that episode. It was David Fury who insisted on a proper closure for that character.

that's actually annoyed me, cuz I did not know this till after this ep, and I felt bad that Joss was not the one who thought of bring Cordy back, because that ep was brilliant. It's like for him that storyline was really closed!

 

[galathea]

Just to go off topic for a sec about that scene in chosen, I think that scene makes sense, (although I am a bangeler), Buffy and angel were Truly in Love, think about the thing spike said in Season 3 Love isn't brains it's Blood, screaming for you to do it's will, Or something like that, so as hard as they try Buffy and angel are meant to be together, this scene proves it, they only go with other people because they can't be together. and I think it was part of the development, not just something Joss stuck in!

Well, I disagree here! Spikes ability to see the truth and being honest with the people around him regarding this truth is admirable, but even he is talking out of his momentary state of mind. And while his speech in Lover's Walk was true at that time and fueled by his desire for Drusilla, it wasn't true later on. Something he has to learn for himself too:

Just like he thought he would always be in love and meant to be together forever with Drusilla he learnt, that people change, that they grow make new experiences and and other people become important. You'll never stop to care about people you loved, but when you move on you need people in your life that move with you, that relate to your actual situation in life. Spike fell in love with Buffy, Angel with Cordelia, Buffy with Riley.

The scene in Chosen proves the exact opposite from what you propose: It deeply and utterly defeats the whole *true love* idea that goes with Bangel. Since when is *true love* supposed to be easy? Since when is a couple *meant to be together* but only when things are not sooo complicated and everybody made his various experiences and so on ... Buffys cookie dough speech is an affirmation that B/A isn't meant to be or they would take their problems and try to work with it instead of sitting it out. And don't bring forth the infamous reasons why Angel left Buffy or his curse, these are nothing but mere excuses. Buffy and Angel weren't not together because circumstances kept them apart but because they themselves did so.

And this scene didn't make any sense at all, neither from Buffys nor from Angels PoV. I really was annoyed about the *Chosen* scene, not only because of Cordelia but even more because I found it utterly out of character that literally just some hours after Angel gave up the most important person in his life (Connor) and made the most difficult decision of his life (to take over W&H) he would complaint about Buffy/Spike and even think about a re-union with Buffy. That scene just negates everything that happened on Angel and was totally unbelieveable and unnecessary. So how could it be *part of the development*?

Sorry, but I needed to vent this ... 😀

 

[The Arcane]

I don't think so. I am convinced he would have split up the both of them, even without CCs pregnancy. As far as I know, Jasmine wasn't even part of the S4 arc and only added because of the pregnancy. I heard, that Cordelia actually should have gone really evil, instead of only being the host for the evil thing. Which of course would have a similar effect on the C/A relationship. Happy couples are just not Whedons thing LOL.

Not exactly, although you are nearly right. It was supposed to have been that everyone simply believed that Cordy had turned evil after returning from wherever she went to at the end of season three but by the end of the storyline it was to be revealed that she was being controlled by a corrupted PtB. The Jasmine character and storyline was added to compensate for Charisma not being available for the end of the season but the arc always involved Cordy being taken over by an evil entity. There was just no original plans for the relationship with Connor, the pregnancy or Jasmine herself. All that came with the forced rewrite.

If everything had gone ahead as planned and Cordy had been seperated from the entity and survived to season five, which no doubt was the original intention, i see no reason why Angel and Cordy would not have tried to pursue their relationship. I doubt it would have been a straightforward matter even then, given everything Cordy would have done over the previous year, but they likely would have tried.

Actually I don't mind the fact that they finally never came together, it's not what I expect of a Whedon show anyways. I also didn't mean to say, that I think that in the end C/A didn't happen because of B/A protests, I simply meant, that he had no problem screwing character development for a fanbase, hence the scene in Chosen.

Agreed in that i didn't mind the Angel/Cordy thing not happening. It would have been an interesting storyline to go with but things didn't go as planned and the story we got was just as enjoyable.

As far as character development goes, concerning the Buffy/Angel kiss in Chosen, i'd have to agree with BEG and say that i don't think Joss screwed with anything or that either Buffy or Angel acted out of character. It was a kiss between two people that still cared for one another very deeply and the truth was that neither one was actually in a relationship at the time. They both had somebody else that they had feelings for but both situations were complicated to say the least.

The kiss was a heat of the moment kind of thing that can happen between two ex's. I'm not saying they were right to kiss, or that it was fair on the feelings of either Spike or Cordy, but it wasn't out of character at all. it just showed how strong the feelings they had for each other still were. Which was something most people knew anyway.

But I do think that Whedons ego is really big and that he indeed isn't as free of other peoples opinions when developing a show as he pretends to be.

Funnily enough it's Joss' ego that tells me that he doesn't listen to others opinions unless they happen top agree with his own anyway. Especially not when it comes to his 'verses. Those are his worlds to control and it's his story to tell, not the fans.

How do i know this? Because i have an ego to rival Joss' and i can promise you that i wouldn't alter a damn thing in one of my shows, regardless of what the viewing audience wanted or didn't want. Like Joss always says, you give them what they need, not want they want.

 

[galathea]

Not exactly, although you are nearly right. It was supposed to have been that everyone simply believed that Cordy had turned evil after returning from wherever she went to at the end of season three but by the end of the storyline it was to be revealed that she was being controlled by a corrupted PtB. The Jasmine character and storyline was added to compensate for Charisma not being available for the end of the season but the arc always involved Cordy being taken over by an evil entity. There was just no original plans for the relationship with Connor, the pregnancy or Jasmine herself. All that came with the forced rewrite.

Ahh, that's interesting. Where did you get that infos from? I only read about that other version.

If everything had gone ahead as planned and Cordy had been seperated from the entity and survived to season five, which no doubt was the original intention, i see no reason why Angel and Cordy would not have tried to pursue their relationship. I doubt it would have been a straightforward matter even then, given everything Cordy would have done over the previous year, but they likely would have tried.

Well, Charisma was available for a 5th season and actually DID assume that she was in that season and was totally caught by surprise that she was fired. Also, by the time Jasmines birth did come forth, Charismas preganancy was over and nevertheless she was sent into a coma instead of waking up. The story itself suggests Cordy waking up and killing Jasmine, so why didn't they do that if it was intended to have her in the 5th season?

But I agree that if Cordy would have been in the 5th season it would have been a redemption story and though she and Angel would try to pick up where they left they would have had to work through serious issues. Actually I would have loved to see that season instead of the one we got .. but well, if wishes were horses ... 😀

As far as character development goes, concerning the Buffy/Angel kiss in Chosen, i'd have to agree with BEG and say that i don't think Joss screwed with anything or that either Buffy or Angel acted out of character. It was a kiss between two people that still cared for one another very deeply and the truth was that neither one was actually in a relationship at the time. They both had somebody else that they had feelings for but both situations were complicated to say the least.

The kiss was a heat of the moment kind of thing that can happen between two ex's. I'm not saying they were right to kiss, or that it was fair on the feelings of either Spike or Cordy, but it wasn't out of character at all. it just showed how strong the feelings they had for each other still were. Which was something most people knew anyway.

I don't mind that kiss so much, as you already said, they haven't seen each other in a while and I am convinced that they will always care for each other. Heat of the moment, fine .. it is annoying, but pfft 🙂

No I am more angry about the fact that Angel acts all casual and dorky. As I said in my post before, I found it utterly out of character that literally just some hours after Angel gave up the most important person in his life (Connor) and made the most difficult decision of his life (to take over W&H) he would complaint about getting the brush off for Spike. In regard to Cordy it bothers me more that he alludes to think of a future with Buffy and that he will wait forever for her, while the status on Cordy isn't even cleared. We see him drive from watching Connor in Home to his meeting with Buffy in Chosen. The Angels we see are not one and the same.

 

[The Arcane]

Ahh, that's interesting. Where did you get that infos from? I only read about that other version.

That is patched together from a number of different interviews an articles over the years. A lot of it comes out of magazines but i'll have to see if i can find some online transcripts for you. I have to admit that the original storyline, as described above, would have been better, in my opinion, than the one that we got because i have always belived that the Jasmine arc of season four was where things really started to lack quality. A shame as well because i really like Gina Torres, it was just that the story was soooo dull!

Well, Charisma was available for a 5th season and actually DID assume that she was in that season and was totally caught by surprise that she was fired. Also, by the time Jasmines birth did come forth, Charismas preganancy was over and nevertheless she was sent into a coma instead of waking up. The story itself suggests Cordy waking up and killing Jasmine, so why didn't they do that if it was intended to have her in the 5th season?

But I agree that if Cordy would have been in the 5th season it would have been a redemption story and though she and Angel would try to pick up where they left they would have had to work through serious issues. Actually I would have loved to see that season instead of the one we got .. but well, if wishes were horses ... 😀

Well, as most of the fans know, behind the scenes issues concerning Joss and Charisma played a part in why Cordy didn't wake up straight away. I don't know anywhere enough about the details to say who was really at fault (although i'd imagine that both parties were not entirely faultless) so i won't dwell on that part. Needless to say that by the time that season five was being planned out Joss had already made up his mind that Cordy wasn't going to play a major role in things. For whatever reasons he made the call and we got the season five cast that we finally saw.

Personally, as a big Cordy and Charisma fan, i did regret her not being at Wolfram and Hart with everyone else but i still loved the season anyway.

I don't mind that kiss so much, as you already said, they haven't seen each other in a while and I am convinced that they will always care for each other. Heat of the moment, fine .. it is annoying, but pfft 🙂

No I am more angry about the fact that Angel acts all casual and dorky. As I said in my post before, I found it utterly out of character that literally just some hours after Angel gave up the most important person in his life (Connor) and made the most difficult decision of his life (to take over W&H) he would complaint about getting the brush off for Spike. In regard to Cordy it bothers me more that he alludes to think of a future with Buffy and that he will wait forever for her, while the status on Cordy isn't even cleared. We see him drive from watching Connor in Home to his meeting with Buffy in Chosen. The Angels we see are not one and the same.

Actually i'm not entirely certain things happened as close together as you imagine. All we see is Angel driving away from Connor. It could have been days after that he went to see Buffy, once he had given Wesley time to look over the information. There is nothing to say it was all in the same day, although i will grant you that he wouldn't have waited too long to give Buffy important info.

His actions and comments were a little off, i'd have to agree on that. It was made to look like he still had all intentions of ending up with Buffy. On the other hand, in the situation he was in, having just found out about Spike and her, it could have been a reflex action. Just trying to establish where he stood in the big scheme of Buffy's life. Theirs was a strange relationship at best and i doubt either one will ever truly love anyone else enough to put the other entirely behind them.

 

[Schillaci]

David Fury said Joss kept Cordy and Angel apart because so many fans complained.(ok, he didnt directly say that, but I can read between the lines)

Angel was completely acting out of character in Chosen. It doesn't matter if he had just given his son up that day, or three/four days before. The way he was acting was complete tosh, and seemed quite callous to me.

Cordy should have been in Not Fade Away, not as a physical presence though. That would have been silly. A flashback scene or something. Angel looking back over the past five years. Some reminder of her influence in his life. Had it not been for Cordy Angel wouldn't be in that alley(in more ways than one), fighting because its the right thing to do.

 

[The Arcane]

David Fury said Joss kept Cordy and Angel apart because so many fans complained.(ok, he didnt directly say that, but I can read between the lines)

Angel was completely acting out of character in Chosen. It doesn't matter if he had just given his son up that day, or three/four days before. The way he was acting was complete tosh, and seemed quite callous to me.

Cordy should have been in Not Fade Away, not as a physical presence though. That would have been silly. A flashback scene or something. Angel looking back over the past five years. Some reminder of her influence in his life. Had it not been for Cordy Angel wouldn't be in that alley(in more ways than one), fighting because its the right thing to do.

The problem with reading between the lines, even from something one of the ME writers has said, is that even they don't have all the facts. there was another incident just recently where Fury made a claim that if Joss had not pushed for a new season of Angel too early then the WB would have eventually gone along with season six. That was proven incorrect and David himself has admitted as much.

You can't always trust even the actual comments made by somebody so reading between the lines of those comments is only going to make matters more confusing. Better to stick with what you know for fact.

Agreed about the Cordy thing though. One idea that might have suited everyone is if they had got Charisma back to film a few new scenes as flashbacks to earlier years. That way everyone would have been happy.

 

[Schillaci]

Ok. See, reading between the lines= I blame Bangel fans for everything...
Just kidding, I blame Joss for everthing. That hoe ruined my marriage...

 

[galathea]

A lot of it comes out of magazines but i'll have to see if i can find some online transcripts for you.

That would be great! Thank you 🙂

Well, as most of the fans know, behind the scenes issues concerning Joss and Charisma played a part in why Cordy didn't wake up straight away. I don't know anywhere enough about the details to say who was really at fault (although i'd imagine that both parties were not entirely faultless) so i won't dwell on that part. Needless to say that by the time that season five was being planned out Joss had already made up his mind that Cordy wasn't going to play a major role in things. For whatever reasons he made the call and we got the season five cast that we finally saw.

That was what I was trying to say. You implied in your previous post that it was planned on having Cordy in the 5th season, but I don't think so, because RL issues prevented that. I don't want to dwell on the rich rumours about that issues either, but I personally think that a more professional attitude could have been expected. And I tend to blame Whedon in that respect, because Charisma made clear that she had the will and full intention to be in the 5th season and was totally caught by surprise. Also how her firing was handled (she only got a phone call) irks me.

There we come to Whedons ego again lol. I am sure you read that recent interview with David Fury, where he explains, that Whedon and SMG blame each other for being ingratitude about the impact they had on each others careers. Which really doesn't make them both look good. And this whole Whedon/Carpenter story does the same. The fact that RL issues make Whedon change a story just shows that what he *envisions* may not be as important to him as he claims. But that's of course all interpretation of interviews and such and I am well aware, that my view on the events are biased on the fact that I love Cordelia and Charisma Carpenter that much 🙂

Actually i'm not entirely certain things happened as close together as you imagine. All we see is Angel driving away from Connor. It could have been days after that he went to see Buffy, once he had given Wesley time to look over the information. There is nothing to say it was all in the same day, although i will grant you that he wouldn't have waited too long to give Buffy important info.

Well I did conclude this from the scene where we see Angel leave W&H in order to visit Connor and we see him take the files and the amulet with him. I simply don't see him driving back to LA and make Wes look over the files again. After all he said to Buffy that the source of the files is unreliable and that he don't know much about it either, which would be different if he had Wes made look into it I presume.

 

[The Arcane]

That would be great! Thank you 🙂

Not a problem, i'll see what i can track down for you! 😉

That was what I was trying to say. You implied in your previous post that it was planned on having Cordy in the 5th season, but I don't think so, because RL issues prevented that. I don't want to dwell on the rich rumours about that issues either, but I personally think that a more professional attitude could have been expected. And I tend to blame Whedon in that respect, because Charisma made clear that she had the will and full intention to be in the 5th season and was totally caught by surprise. Also how her firing was handled (she only got a phone call) irks me.

There we come to Whedons ego again lol. I am sure you read that recent interview with David Fury, where he explains, that Whedon and SMG blame each other for being ingratitude about the impact they had on each others careers. Which really doesn't make them both look good. And this whole Whedon/Carpenter story does the same. The fact that RL issues make Whedon change a story just shows that what he *envisions* may not be as important to him as he claims. But that's of course all interpretation of interviews and such and I am well aware, that my view on the events are biased on the fact that I love Cordelia and Charisma Carpenter that much 🙂

On topics like this i tend to shy away from having too much of an opinion. We get a lot of our information concerning "behind the scenes" matters from either second, third or even fourth hand sources, which often proves to be unreliable and at least a little tainted. Whatever happened between Joss and Charisma will likely never be clear to anyone outside of the two named parties. Whatever it was has now been resolved so it's probably best left in the past.

What i meant about season five was that if none of the problems had ever happened then it was most likely that Cordy would still have been a part of Team Angel in the fifth season. As things really did happen though, Joss had already been forced to change his season four plans because of Charisma's pregnancy, regardless of what he actually wanted to do and so the alterations were already there. He had to change his season five plans to a certain extent and so his decision to not include Cordy was simply a part of that, no doubt couple with his strained relationship with Charisma. Had the changes he was forced to make to season four never happened then i doubt he would have changed anything for season five either.

Regardless of any of that though, this is not the same as saying that he would alter his story plans to suit the fanbase. This situation was about the realities of television and real life clashing and not about pressure from outside sources, such as the fans.

Well I did conclude this from the scene where we see Angel leave W&H in order to visit Connor and we see him take the files and the amulet with him. I simply don't see him driving back to LA and make Wes look over the files again. After all he said to Buffy that the source of the files is unreliable and that he don't know much about it either, which would be different if he had Wes made look into it I presume.

Well, the impression i got was that there had been at least a little study into the amulet. He mentions a translation (however unclear) and i can't see him trusting the word of Wolfram & Hart and handing a powerful artifact over to Buffy without at least having Wesley look at the material first.

Regardless, as Psychotic Jackass said, the exact timeframe makes very little difference.

 

[galathea]

On topics like this i tend to shy away from having too much of an opinion. We get a lot of our information concerning "behind the scenes" matters from either second, third or even fourth hand sources, which often proves to be unreliable and at least a little tainted. Whatever happened between Joss and Charisma will likely never be clear to anyone outside of the two named parties. Whatever it was has now been resolved so it's probably best left in the past.

You are probably right on that. I try to be as wise as you but sometimes the way Cordys character was handled makes me soo angry that I loose sight of wisdom. 🙂

What i meant about season five was that if none of the problems had ever happened then it was most likely that Cordy would still have been a part of Team Angel in the fifth season. As things really did happen though, Joss had already been forced to change his season four plans because of Charisma's pregnancy, regardless of what he actually wanted to do and so the alterations were already there. He had to change his season five plans to a certain extent and so his decision to not include Cordy was simply a part of that, no doubt couple with his strained relationship with Charisma. Had the changes he was forced to make to season four never happened then i doubt he would have changed anything for season five either.

Okay, I misunderstood you then.

Regardless, as Psychotic Jackass said, the exact timeframe makes very little difference.

I agree on that 🙂