Should I read the comics too?

[ladydorotea]

The situations for Buffy S8 and AtF are entirely different, though. I agree that AtF would've gone the same way (was it well-received, the comic?)

Yes, it actually was. At least the parts of it that were written with Joss' involvement - issues 1-17. These issues also had sales numbers twice current Buffy S9 - started at 50K ended about 40K, which is very good for short comic series coming out of nowhere.

but BtVS would have turned out differently. Hell, if they'd known S7 wasn't the end, they wouldn't have ended it with Chosen.

I am absolutely content with the way it ended in Chosen, post-comic-wise. SMG got her semi-happy, hopeful ending and went out with a big smile. The way Buffy returned and - no matter how it would have continued in the tv series - I am sure later-days 'dark' Whedon would have taken the route he has taken in turn with Echo, River, Jules from Cabin and comic-Buffy - a complete failure, misery and loss of everything/everybody dear, as well as loss of integrity and self-betrayal, possibly death by torture.

 

[dexeded]

I am absolutely content with the way it ended in Chosen, post-comic-wise. SMG got her semi-happy, hopeful ending and went out with a big smile. The way Buffy returned and - no matter how it would have continued in the tv series - I am sure later-days 'dark' Whedon would have taken the route he has taken in turn with Echo, River, Jules from Cabin and comic-Buffy - a complete failure, misery and loss of everything/everybody dear, as well as loss of integrity and self-betrayal, possibly death by torture.

I liked how it ended too, just that it would be harder to continue S8 with an entirely new premise of a Slayer academy/organisation. Although the TV show has changed through the years, the basic premise of The One (or The Two) and Sunnydale Hellmouth remained constant. Slayer organisation would have been a different show altogether. So I think TV S8 would've been much different. I don't know about 'later-days' Whedon, though. I haven't seen those shows yet, though I plan to. (I thought Firefly was super good?)

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I am absolutely content with the way it ended in Chosen, post-comic-wise. SMG got her semi-happy, hopeful ending and went out with a big smile. The way Buffy returned and - no matter how it would have continued in the tv series - I am sure later-days 'dark' Whedon would have taken the route he has taken in turn with Echo, River, Jules from Cabin and comic-Buffy - a complete failure, misery and loss of everything/everybody dear, as well as loss of integrity and self-betrayal, possibly death by torture.

Wait, how was River's ending not good? Her life got better and better. And it was a horror movie, it's not suprising that Jules died.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11500]drizzlydaze[/MENTION]

I liked how it ended too, just that it would be harder to continue S8 with an entirely new premise of a Slayer academy/organisation. Although the TV show has changed through the years, the basic premise of The One (or The Two) and Sunnydale Hellmouth remained constant. Slayer organisation would have been a different show altogether. So I think TV S8 would've been much different.

One thing I don't understand is, why is there even a slayer organisation? What was the point of activating the potentials, if not for Buffy to live like a person in Faith's words? You'd think she would like to settle down in some remote, quiet place and slowly deal with her shit, I mean she's barely standing at the end of season 7, a total wreck of a slayer. And don't tell me that season 9 is like that or that it wouldn't make a good story, she could occasionally help during some apocalypse or other or alternatively take care of the second hell mouth.

No, she's a bank robbing warlord with a kid army at war with seemingly everybody. And why would other slayers even join some organization, they're freaking slayers, perfectly capable of kicking ass on their own, without watchers or leaders or anybody, their dreams tell them everything they need to know.

It just doesn't make sense.
[MENTION=9316]ladydorotea[/MENTION]

Caroline Farrell is a far better example than Echo. Echo? There's no such thing.
[MENTION=8557]Skytteflickan88[/MENTION]

Wait, how was River's ending not good? Her life got better and better.

Well, it's not like it could get any worse.

 

[dexeded]

One thing I don't understand is, why is there even a slayer organisation? What was the point of activating the potentials, if not for Buffy to live like a person in Faith's words? You'd think she would like to settle down in some remote, quiet place and slowly deal with her shit, I mean she's barely standing at the end of season 7, a total wreck of a slayer. And don't tell me that season 9 is like that or that it wouldn't make a good story, she could occasionally help during some apocalypse or other or alternatively take care of the second hell mouth.

No, she's a bank robbing warlord with a kid army at war with seemingly everybody. And why would other slayers even join some organization, they're freaking slayers, perfectly capable of kicking ass on their own, without watchers or leaders or anybody, their dreams tell them everything they need to know.

At the very least, it would be useful to keep track of all the Slayers and what demons or problems they encountered for future reference. They also need to find the Slayers to tell them what they are. And Slayers do need Watchers, some kind of guidance (not just Slayer dreams, because those are just cryptic), because they are, after all, still teenage girls. The Watcher would provide a tie to the world. Mobilising and communicating between Slayers would also allow them to identify potential threats early on by exchanging information, and to take out those threats efficiently. It only makes sense to cooperate.

I also never understood the whole 'Buffy wants to be normal' bit that they keep revisiting. We already established in Helpless and made it a theme in S5 that being a Slayer is an integral part of Buffy. Buffy always needs a purpose, even if she thinks she doesn't want one.

'Course, I totally agree with the robbing bank and 'at war with everybody' point, because that, like most of the comic, was just total crap.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11500]drizzlydaze[/MENTION]

At the very least, it would be useful to keep track of all the Slayers and what demons or problems they encountered for future reference.

Yeah, but it's not her job, now is it? It's Rupert's responsibility, he is an incompetent, useless joke of a wanker, but still.

They also need to find the Slayers to tell them what they are. And Slayers do need Watchers, some kind of guidance (not just Slayer dreams, because those are just cryptic)

There are two kinds of Slayer dreams. The prophetic ones are cryptic, obtuse and for some reason often involve pseudo-creepy, annoying little girls. The standard slayer dreams are pretty clear and straightforward though. They're like a shared memory of the entire slayer line, with the most important battles and such, watching them the slayers learn about vampires and how to slay them. This mechanism is there to make the chosen ones as self-reliant as possible.

Not to mention there's a whole lot of slayers from various licensed works who had never met a watcher and slayed just fine.

The Watcher would provide a tie to the world.

I don't think that it's ever been a priority of any watcher. Look at Giles. Buffy wants to become a cheerleader? Wrong. Buffy wants to go to a party? Wrong. Buffy wants to go shopping? We're doomed.

I swear, if there's one character I despise the most it has to be Giles. Man, what a wanker.

Mobilising and communicating between Slayers would also allow them to identify potential threats early on by exchanging information, and to take out those threats efficiently. It only makes sense to cooperate.

Yeah, but what you're talking about is a simple exchange of information, it could be done over the internet or something, I could even understand some training and education, but that's not what Buffy does. Buffy builds an organized army, with uniforms, barracks and a chain of command.

Buffy always needs a purpose, even if she thinks she doesn't want one.

Yes, but who says it has to be slaying? She could be a mentor for younger girls, a consultant, a teacher and a temporary leader/big gun in case of an apocalyptic emergency...or she could start a rock band, or get into drugs, or extreme sports if she craves adrenaline or whatever. It's the dealing with her shit part. Buffy doesn't have to lead an army, she does so because she's a gargantuan ****ing egomaniac.

I also never understood the whole 'Buffy wants to be normal' bit that they keep revisiting.

Me neither. It makes no sense. With Buffy it's always either I'm The Slayer and it's always going to be me, me, me or I'm done with slaying, see ya and there's a lot of space in between.

like most of the comic, was just total crap.

We both agree on that so really, it truly has to be total crap.
[MENTION=8557]Skytteflickan88[/MENTION]

She could get kidnapped and enslaved, lose Simon and everyone else, become a killer machine and be unable to turn it off

But...that's exactly what happened between the show's last episode and the film's events and in the film itself. She was kidnapped and enslaved, lost Simon and everybody else, later she also became a killing machine that was unable to control herself.

 

[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=11194]EVIL UU[/MENTION], I never understood the "Buffy wants YOU" army thing either. I mean, it makes perfect sense for them to organize; she was the one responsible for unleashing Slayer powers on thousands of girls who may or may not be even close to ready for them (see: Dana, Faith), and she has by far the most experience with the Watcher's Council wiped out, so I get the need to organize and train them.

But the army thing either made no sense or was just a terrible plan. I mean, The Scoobies have proven over seven seasons that they're generally smart people right? Tactically they (usually) have their crap together. So, you're telling me that it didn't occur to any of them that world governments might have a problem with thousands of armed and organized super-teenagers roaming around at their own discretion? Come on. I like the idea of Buffy forming small teams and combating bigger and badder threats, but her whole "kay" line at war with humanity just wasn't Buffy to me. Buffy has always slain demons to protect people. She's given her life for that. Now she's just okay with essentially going to war with the U.S.? No way.

Now, to be fair, I'm only through the "No Future for you" storyline, so I'm hoping that it goes somewhere else.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

[MENTION=11500]drizzlydaze[/MENTION]


Yeah, but it's not her job, now is it? It's Rupert's responsibility, he is an incompetent, useless joke of a wanker, but still.



There are two kinds of Slayer dreams. The prophetic ones are cryptic, obtuse and for some reason often involve pseudo-creepy, annoying little girls. The standard slayer dreams are pretty clear and straightforward though. They're like a shared memory of the entire slayer line, with the most important battles and such, watching them the slayers learn about vampires and how to slay them. This mechanism is there to make the chosen ones as self-reliant as possible.

Not to mention there's a whole lot of slayers from various licensed works who had never met a watcher and slayed just fine.



I don't think that it's ever been a priority of any watcher. Look at Giles. Buffy wants to become a cheerleader? Wrong. Buffy wants to go to a party? Wrong. Buffy wants to go shopping? We're doomed.

I swear, if there's one character I despise the most it has to be Giles. Man, what a wanker.



Yeah, but what you're talking about is a simple exchange of information, it could be done over the internet or something, I could even understand some training and education, but that's not what Buffy does. Buffy builds an organized army, with uniforms, barracks and a chain of command.



Yes, but who says it has to be slaying? She could be a mentor for younger girls, a consultant, a teacher and a temporary leader/big gun in case of an apocalyptic emergency...or she could start a rock band, or get into drugs, or extreme sports if she craves adrenaline or whatever. It's the dealing with her shit part. Buffy doesn't have to lead an army, she does so because she's a gargantuan ****ing egomaniac.



Me neither. It makes no sense. With Buffy it's always either I'm The Slayer and it's always going to be me, me, me or I'm done with slaying, see ya and there's a lot of space in between.



We both agree on that so really, it truly has to be total crap.
[MENTION=8557]Skytteflickan88[/MENTION]


But...that's exactly what happened between the show's last episode and the film's events and in the film itself. She was kidnapped and enslaved, lost Simon and everybody else, later she also became a killing machine that was unable to control herself.

No, that's what happened before Simon saved her. Then she got free from enslavement, got Simon back and new friends. But she might still "activate" if triggered.

So she went through stuff before and during the story, but came out of it stronger. I thought you meant she came out of it in a bad broken way, when I saw a story of empowerment that ended very well for her.

 

[Riley's Way]

I haven't read the comics so I can't answer, but I will never ever read those, to me Buffy ended with Chosen & that's it, I'm like those who never even acknowledge the existence of the comic books. Just because Joss doesn't know when to stop doesn't mean I don't ..

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11975]Always Bangel[/MENTION]

I never understood the "Buffy wants YOU" army thing either. I mean, it makes perfect sense for them to organize; she was the one responsible for unleashing Slayer powers on thousands of girls who may or may not be even close to ready for them (see: Dana, Faith), and she has by far the most experience with the Watcher's Council wiped out, so I get the need to organize and train them.

I think that paradoxically the best way to deal with potential activation is to do nothing and watch the vampire population being rapidly driven extinct. Yes, some of the slayers will inevitably die, but they're slayers right, it's in the job description. Most of them, guided by their dreams, will do fine though. Act only when things get out of control and chill out.

It seems to me that Buffy simply wanted power.

Buffy has always slain demons to protect people.

Well, there was this one time when she's slain people to protect the key. Close enough.

 

[dexeded]

There are two kinds of Slayer dreams. The prophetic ones are cryptic, obtuse and for some reason often involve pseudo-creepy, annoying little girls. The standard slayer dreams are pretty clear and straightforward though. They're like a shared memory of the entire slayer line, with the most important battles and such, watching them the slayers learn about vampires and how to slay them. This mechanism is there to make the chosen ones as self-reliant as possible.

What are these clear Slayer dreams you speak of? The ones that drove Dana crazy?

Slayers need Watchers to help interpret the cryptic dreams, like what Giles did in Hush.

Not to mention there's a whole lot of slayers from various licensed works who had never met a watcher and slayed just fine.

Various licensed works are not canon.

I don't think that it's ever been a priority of any watcher. Look at Giles. Buffy wants to become a cheerleader? Wrong. Buffy wants to go to a party? Wrong. Buffy wants to go shopping? We're doomed.

That was the old Watchers' Council. Now that they are forming a new order, they would be different, seeing as Buffy wouldn't support the old stuffy ways.

I swear, if there's one character I despise the most it has to be Giles. Man, what a wanker.

You hate Giles!? In all seasons?

Yeah, but what you're talking about is a simple exchange of information, it could be done over the internet or something, I could even understand some training and education, but that's not what Buffy does. Buffy builds an organized army, with uniforms, barracks and a chain of command.

Yes, I agree with this. I just meant that Slayers being totally separate would not be a good idea. I'd say training and education are essential, and that they have to have regular face-to-face meetings, at least, to ensure that no one's getting unstable. Some kind of system of collated information would be good, see who's a Slayer and who doesn't want to do Slayer duties.

Yes, but who says it has to be slaying? She could be a mentor for younger girls, a consultant, a teacher and a temporary leader/big gun in case of an apocalyptic emergency...or she could start a rock band, or get into drugs, or extreme sports if she craves adrenaline or whatever. It's the dealing with her shit part. Buffy doesn't have to lead an army, she does so because she's a gargantuan ****ing egomaniac.

I partly agree with you. But what about the crave for the hunt that was explored in S5? Heavily hinted at with Dracula, even. I'm not going to answer for the comics-army because they are just nonsensical, so...

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11500]drizzlydaze[/MENTION]

Slayers need Watchers to help interpret the cryptic dreams, like what Giles did in Hush.

Buffy's "Hush" dream is a prophetic dream. And you're making it sound like slayers are silly little girls who can't do anything without their dear, precious sugar daddies, I disagree with such notion. They can interpret those dreams on their own or simply ignore them, at the end of the day it's still all about slaying. Prophetic dreams are there to give them a warning but that's it.

The ones that drove Dana crazy?

Surely you jest. Torture, drugs and imprisonment drove Dana crazy, you can't use her as an example of someone damaged by slayer dreams, she was damaged and mentally ill before her activation. No watcher could have helped her with that.

Various licensed works are not canon.

Obviously. Still, Sineya, Fray, Hong Kong slayer and Xin Rong had no watchers either and that's canon.

That was the old Watchers' Council. Now that they are forming a new order, they would be different, seeing as Buffy wouldn't support the old stuffy ways.

I'm not so sure about that. It was Buffy who created a slayer army, took the girls away from their friends, families and environment and focused them on slaying. It sounds very much like the old ways to me.

You hate Giles!? In all seasons?

Hate is such a strong word.

It's more like hate and love, you know, hate him for what he does, love him for who he is, 'cause he's Giles. And yeah, I admit, I disliked Giles before but it was season 8 that made me outright hate that wanker and with a burning passion. Keeping Buffy in the dark? Assassinating a slayer because of a prophecy?! Who does this self-righteous rat think he is?

But what about the crave for the hunt that was explored in S5?

Well, Buffy's not an animal. She's in control when she slays, she doesn't turn into a zombie-like killing machine who mumbles slay, must SLAY! every few minutes.

She can control her urges.

Do a slaying marathon every weekend or so or find a substitute, like maybe sparring session with another slayer or a witch, or paintball or hell, even video games. Kinky sex might work as well but considering her history, I think it would be reasonable for Buffy to not have sex, like ever again, at least with partners that are not 100% human. For her own sake and for the sake of the world.

 

[dexeded]

Buffy's "Hush" dream is a prophetic dream. And you're making it sound like slayers are silly little girls who can't do anything without their dear, precious sugar daddies, I disagree with such notion. They can interpret those dreams on their own or simply ignore them, at the end of the day it's still all about slaying. Prophetic dreams are there to give them a warning but that's it.

I wasn't implying that Slayers were incapable. But their main function is, as you say, to Slay. Their training and patrolling, plus trying to have actual lives if they so choose, leaves little or at least much less time to research and/or read up on demonology. That's why they need Watchers. It would be more useful if they could interpret those dreams. It would also be useful if they could quickly look up the creatures they encounter. Research is essential and just more effective with a trained Watcher, or at the very least with more people helping.

Surely you jest. Torture, drugs and imprisonment drove Dana crazy, you can't use her as an example of someone damaged by slayer dreams, she was damaged and mentally ill before her activation. No watcher could have helped her with that.

Someone already unstable would be very much exacerbated by bloody dreams. The fact that all Slayer powers, including Slayer dreams, are granted to all Potentials in the world without discrimination is dangerous in itself, should they go without supervision. It would be easy for even the sanest of them to think they were going crazy without being approached by a Watcher to explain their very insubstantial dreams. Cases like Faith would be far more prevalent with unsupervised Slayers, dreams or no.

Obviously. Still, Sineya, Fray, Hong Kong slayer and Xin Rong had no watchers either and that's canon.

Hong Kong Slayer? Is she in the comics or something? And when is it canon that Xin Rong had no Watcher? Genuine questions. I only skimmed the comics and read discussions, so pretty unclear on what was established.

Sineya had the Shadow Men to explain. Her objectives were basically to protect the tribe/their land, not a whole world-saveage gig, so threats seen in Slayer dreams would be easily seen as 'big bad monster' or whatever. Fray had Urkonn. She wasn't saving the world till he advised her. She didn't even have Slayer dreams, so interpeting them is moot.

I'm not so sure about that. It was Buffy who created a slayer army, took the girls away from their friends, families and environment and focused them on slaying. It sounds very much like the old ways to me.

But they were allowed to have lives, right? Friends and fun and whatever they wanted in times of non-crisis. Were the girls allowed to back out if they didn't want to be Slayers?

Well, Buffy's not an animal. She's in control when she slays, she doesn't turn into a zombie-like killing machine who mumbles slay, must SLAY! every few minutes.

She can control her urges.

Do a slaying marathon every weekend or so or find a substitute, like maybe sparring session with another slayer or a witch, or paintball or hell, even video games. Kinky sex might work as well but considering her history, I think it would be reasonable for Buffy to not have sex, like ever again, at least with partners that are not 100% human. For her own sake and for the sake of the world.

Well, it wouldn't be in-character for Buffy to find such a balance so quickly. She oscillates between I-am-the-Slayer and I-want-to-be-normal. I don't even think she'd be happy with the routine you suggest; it would be like Giles in S4, becoming redundant. For all her talk about normal, even with some side-Slaying, she really is The Slayer even after the events in Chosen. She still needs to be significant.

Of course, if you're talking about her having her own Sunnydale-style life in Cleveland, sans new Slayer school, I'm all for it.

 

[EVIL UU]

I wasn't implying that Slayers were incapable. But their main function is, as you say, to Slay. Their training and patrolling, plus trying to have actual lives if they so choose, leaves little or at least much less time to research and/or read up on demonology. That's why they need Watchers.

I'm not against the idea of helping the slayer. I'm against the idea of watchers, a centralized organization, with massive funds and paid employees. A structure like that is bound to become corrupt, rotten and largely useless over time, just like the former council. The idea is inherently flawed because the well-being of the slayer and the organization that's meant to serve her are not directly connected.

It would also be useful if they could quickly look up the creatures they encounter.

Grab all the council's data and organize it into a comprehensive yet simple wiki-like database, with pictures, how to kill instructions and such. Pair it with image recognition software, for easy baddie recognition. Code that shit into an app and load it onto a smartphone, then give every slayer such a smartphone. Maintain a small, dedicated group of researchers, when shit hits the fan every slayer can give them a call.

Done. The wanker's council is updated, welcome to the 21st century

Were the girls allowed to back out if they didn't want to be Slayers?

I suppose so, but slayers are anything but quitters. Satsu started crying because she thought that Buffy would send her away. Satsu, OK? One of the toughest slayers around, the girl with a katana and coolest hairdos since Trance Gemini, in tears, Satsu, the one who ****ed Buffy Summers, Satsu.

The slayer army is sort of like a cult, it's not that they can't leave, they don't want to.

But they were allowed to have lives, right? Friends and fun and whatever they wanted in times of non-crisis.

Certainly, but how much life can you really have while serving in a completely illegal paramilitary organization? For instance, Buffy's slayers in Scotland don't seem to have any significant others, and while there's a sister-like bond between them, the fun is insiders only.

Let's put things in a perspective, just to show with what kind of crap we're exactly dealing here.

I've researched some, looking for the next closest thing to Buffy's army. Wonder Woman and her amazons was the first idea, except you don't join amazons to become one, you're born an amazon. And then it hit me.

The closest thing to Buffy's army is Hitlerjugend, or to be more precise the female equivalents, Jungmädelbund, Bund Deutscher Mädel and BDM-Werk Glaube und Schönheit but mostly BDM, Buffy's season 8 army was modeled after those organizations.

*You need to be a super-human, an àœbermensch to join, also young girls only
*A charismatic leader and a cult of personality surrounding said leader

Now, I'm not saying that Buffy is Hitler, after all her organisation doesn't use creepy propaganda posters with her face all over them to recruit young people nor she doesn't have any decoys.

Oh wait.

*bankrolled with Nazi money.

Well played guys, well played.

Hong Kong Slayer? Is she in the comics or something?

Yes, she was mentioned in one of the non-season 8 canon comics. Since you've asked for canon only.

And when is it canon that Xin Rong had no Watcher?

She was trained by her family, most likely they were in the know, no sign of watchers though.

Her objectives were basically to protect the tribe/their land, not a whole world-saveage gig

Her tribe was the whole world. That was the entire humanity during her time, their objectives are the same.

Well, it wouldn't be in-character for Buffy to find such a balance so quickly.

Quickly? She's been finding balance since the day she was called and moreover, I think that she's already found that balance, during the period between season 4 and season 5 and especially in the beginning of season 7. She slays, she has a decent job, she's not depressed, she's pretty much at peace. OK, she's not in a relationship but maybe that's how it's supposed to be? I mean, it's not easy to love the slayer.

She oscillates between I-am-the-Slayer and I-want-to-be-normal. I don't even think she'd be happy with the routine you suggest; it would be like Giles in S4, becoming redundant. For all her talk about normal, even with some side-Slaying, she really is The Slayer even after the events in Chosen. She still needs to be significant.

Even though she made herself redundant. And of course, I agree.

It's like Buffy wants to have the cake and eat the cake. She wants to be the chosen one with a fanatical army at her command and two completely identical bad boy vampire cliches and maybe even one witch fighting to death to be with her while stroking her ego not to mention other "friends" and at the same time she wants to be a normal girl, whatever the hell that is.

Holden got it right, she's diabolical.

I don't even think she'd be happy with the routine you suggest

Maybe, but what's her alternative?