Should there had been more atonement from Spike?

[Blaze]

And there is a difference between hurting someone and feeling regret over it, versus feeling nothing. The feeling nothing is what makes a vampire a monster.

Absolutely! But that is not the case for souled Spike, or at least in most cases (the guy still packs a punch). But even then, it's not that souled Spike feels nothing, he just chooses not sulk in the corner for a century or two until a pretty blond comes around (oh, you tell me the pretty blond was already there? Well, at least we didn't get to witness the brooding 😛 )

 

[thetopher]

I voted no.

Mainly because Spike was never, ever about redemption (until that brief period in Angel S5), he was about being in love with Buffy. He did what he did, doing good, getting his soul, becoming the Big Bad again in S7 because either that's what he thought Buffy wanted, or that's what she told him to do. It was never because he 'felt bad' and wanted to atone for the things he had done in the past.

And really should he? Spike with a soul didn't do any of those things...but Spike clearly feels bad about what 'he' did to Buffy (the whole S6 relationship and the attempted rape) and he also takes credit for the 'reforming' he did when he had the chip (as he tells Faith when they meet).

So how come he credits himself with all the good he did (and feels bad about his 'true love') but doesn't give a toss about Robin Wood or Nikki Wood. In fact up until 'Damage' he's very proud of his killing two slayers (presumably good people) and also likes his trophy coat ('TGIQ'.)

So I'll hold Spike to the same standards that he holds himself to- if you take credit for the good then you should atone for the bad you have done, otherwise you're just a deeply unpleasant jackass.

It would've been nice for him to have some sort of remorse/atonement from him, or even a significant change in character after having his HUMANITY returned to him (look at the changes almost any other character goes through due to moral choices/remorse- Angel, Faith, Wesley, even Anya. They show more tons more depth than this guy).
But the writers wanted to have 'Spike' back in all his glory for the latter parts of S7 so we got that instead.
Yay.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

if you take credit for the good then you should atone for the bad you have done

In a perfect world maybe.. but how many people honestly atone for the bad they have done? The only person you have to atone to is yourself.

doesn't give a toss about Robin Wood or Nikki Wood

But why should he? Honestly. Explain why he should.

 

[thetopher]

In a perfect world maybe.. but how many people honestly atone for the bad they have done? The only person you have to atone to is yourself.

Not if you're Angel (he realizes that he can't fully atone and there is no Shanshu reward but he still feels bad for the things he did) or Faith, or Wesley or almost anybody else in the Buffyverse.
The Buffyverse isn't a perfect world either but we should hold ALL the characters to a similar standard, right?

But why should he? Honestly. Explain why he should.

I already explained: If Spike feels bad about what 'he' did to Buffy and also claims credit for all the good 'he' did without a soul (reforming as he puts it) then he should feel guilty when confronted with one of the victims of his 'former' self- but he doesn't- he feels the opposite.
Spike claims that basically Nikki Wood had it coming because she was the slayer and also not a very good Mom, that Robin should get over it and 'oh, that's MY coat now.'
Later, when confronted with the living embodiment of his past victims (Dana, as she speaks the last thoughts/words of the previous slayers he killed) Spike is pretty nonplussed until that bit at the end, and even then there's a large note of 'I'm a victim too' to his musings with Angel. 
Smile Time: Anya has more depth than Spike ? explain yourself

Briefly she is.
Unsoulled Spike is as deep and fascinating a character as they come but Spike with a soul? Go watch 'Selfless' and then watch 'Lies My Parents Tell Me' and see which is the more interesting reaction to confronting your dark side?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

If Spike feels bad about what 'he' did to Buffy and also claims credit for all the good 'he' did without a soul (reforming as he puts it) then he should feel guilty when confronted with one of the victims of his 'former' self- but he doesn't- he feels the opposite.

But why should he? I dont know why he should. Other than the fact you say he should. But why?

 

[thetopher]

But why should he? I dont know why he should. Other than the fact you say he should. But why?

Because otherwise, by his own words/admission, he's a massive hypocrite. You can't do one and then ignore the other- that's not how morality works. You don't get to pick and choose.

 

[Blaze]

I don't really get the Nikki stuff either. Spike was a vampire, Nikki was a slayer. It's not worst than soldiers killing each other out of duty. It's a survival thing, to me it's not about being good or bad. To me, it's not necessary for Spike to feel bad because what he did was out of nature, you can't change that.

What he did to Buffy was personal, which is perhaps why he shows more remorse towards those actions. What he did to the people he killed, to the slayers, it was all just him being a normal vamp.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

You can't do one and then ignore the other- that's not how morality works. You don't get to pick and choose.

That exactly how morality works. Discerning between right and wrong/good and bad behavior.

 

[thetopher]

That exactly how morality works. Discerning between right and wrong/good and bad behavior.

No, you don't get to say 'I'm responsible for THAT evil thing that I did whilst soulless, but not THAT evil thing I did because I'm don't happen to be in love with that person'. Not when the same person did two very bad things, its nonsensical.
Nor do you get to say 'Well I'll take credit for all the good I did whilst soulless but won't give a crap about the bad because 'that wasn't me''.

Like I said: Hypocritical.

 

[white avenger]

So how come he credits himself with all the good he did (and feels bad about his 'true love') but doesn't give a toss about Robin Wood or Nikki Wood.

In all fairness, Robin Wood had just tried to kill Spike, even though he knew that the "monster who killed (his) mother" wasn't the one person with him. That monster actually had to be summoned by artificial means, and that, by destroying him, he was also destroying an innocent man. That isn't much of a foundation for trust and good will.

 

[Firstina]

So again, she DID have a soul as a vampire as I stated. And she didnt feel the immediate need to repent for her actions. Thus, Angel/lus is the anomaly. You 'corrected' me by agreeing with me.

Sorry, can't agree. Darla was human with a soul and a vampire with side effects of a soul. Not the same thing as a vampire with a soul. And she in both that situations felt at least some guilt - breaking mirrors in order not to see herself out of disgust for instance.

I never said it was. I just said that in the case of Spikes, the actions he took soulless are not actions he could ever take with a soul.

We don't know that - it's just speculation about the things William was or was not capable of.

 

[Blaze]

We don't know that - it's just speculation about the things William was or was not capable of.

But we do know. We saw Spike with a soul for 2 TV season, and a few comic seasons, and not once did he kill an innocent person (discounting the trigger, because Spike was not in control of it), or drank blood from a live person to kill them, or actively tried to hurt an innocent person without instigation. So we have a solid few years of seeing Spike with a soul, therefore I'd like to think that we know what he is capable of.

 

[Firstina]

But we do know. We saw Spike with a soul for 2 TV season, and a few comic seasons, and not once did he kill an innocent person (discounting the trigger, because Spike was not in control of it), or drank blood from a live person to kill them, or actively tried to hurt an innocent person without instigation. So we have a solid few years of seeing Spike with a soul, therefore I'd like to think that we know what he is capable of.

Not quite fair data. Without knowing about a soul or chip you can say that "random" Spike from 4 or 5 season is a pretty decent person - for a vampire, at least. But then next year there was Spike from season 6... And it ended badly. Though I want to believe that he is ok now too. He is just like the first souled one not very trustworthy guy. Still have demons in them, can't help that.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

No, you don't get to say 'I'm responsible for THAT evil thing that I did

Wait.. suddenly you went from saying guilt to responsibility. They are two different arguments and you just changed halfway through. Spike should not, and does not, have to feel guilt (unless he opts to), but of course he should feel responsible. To say he doesnt have to feel responsible is asinine. He was the one doing it, of course he should feel responsible.

To say you can pick and choose which act you feel guilty for is morality, not hypocrisy.

 

[thetopher]

In all fairness, Robin Wood had just tried to kill Spike, even though he knew that the "monster who killed (his) mother" wasn't the one person with him. That monster actually had to be summoned by artificial means, and that, by destroying him, he was also destroying an innocent man. That isn't much of a foundation for trust and good will.

How does any of that apply to Niikki Woods, the slayer he murdered? And yet Spike feels no remorse for her (he says this very thing) just pride.

And yet he also feels bad for what 'he' did to Buffy- but it wasn't him. There's a disconnect- either have both or have none because demon Spike is responsible for both. 

Wait.. suddenly you went from saying guilt to responsibility. They are two different arguments and you just changed halfway through.

Sorry, I should've been clearer- he feels GUILTY for what he did to Buffy, but not what he did to Wood's Mom. Unsouled demon Spike did both these things yet he feels guilt/responsibility for one by apologizing. For the other he does the opposite.

Spike should not, and does not, have to feel guilt (unless he opts to), but of course he should feel responsible.

But that's my argument- he picks and chooses depending on who he's talking to.

To say he doesnt have to feel responsible is asinine. He was the one doing it, of course he should feel responsible.

Not imo. Unsoulled Spike and Angelus are separate characters from Spike and Angel. They had no control of losing their souls/becoming what they were but they are responsible for what they do once they have the moral choice.

To say you can pick and choose which act you feel guilty for is morality, not hypocrisy.

No, its hypocrisy. To say one thing to one person and then a different thing about those same general circumstances to another is hypocritical.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Unsouled demon Spike did both these things yet he feels guilt/responsibility for one by apologizing. For the other he does the opposite.

But again, I dont see anything wrong with that. One person matters to him and one does not.

I mean, I am not going to apologize to the people I cut in front of the line of, or steal their parking space, because simply they don't matter to me and I don't care about them or their feelings. That is what morality is about. Assigning right and wrong to your actions and beliefs. But then if I steal a parking space of someone and I see it's someone I know, then I would apologize. Doesn't mean it's hypocritical. One person matters to me and one doesn't.

Because Spike is (now) a moral person he deems one action worthy of an apology and another action (which may or may not be the same thing) not worthy of an apology based on his morality and what he defines as right and wrong. What he defines as right and wrong, just and unjust is clearly different than you.. but to say it's hypocrisy because that reason is trying to assign the character your own moral codes and ethics which is clearly does not have. 
edit: that's why it goes back to what started it.. trying to explain why he 'should give a toss' about Robin Wood. Which I still don't know why he should. Unless I a defining give a toss wrong- I am translating that to care. I see no reason for Spike to care about Robin Wood.

 

[thetopher]

But again, I dont see anything wrong with that. One person matters to him and one does not.

I mean, I am not going to apologize to the people I cut in front of the line of, or steal their parking space, because simply they don't matter to me and I don't care about them or their feelings. That is what morality is about. Assigning right and wrong to your actions and beliefs. But then if I steal a parking space of someone and I see it's someone I know, then I would apologize. Doesn't mean it's hypocritical. One person matters to me and one doesn't.

Well I guess that's fine when you're talking about little things such as nabbing a parking space or whatever, but if its a case of rape and murder then I see a big difference.
I kill 3 people and then go to jail. Years later in the parole meeting I say I feel bad about killing this one guy (because he was my friend) but couldn't give a crap about those other two ('cause dude, I didn't even know them that well).

Surprisingly I don't get my parole because the board does not consider me a decent, moral person.

Because Spike is (now) a moral person he deems one action worthy of an apology and another action (which may or may not be the same thing) not worthy of an apology based on his morality and what he defines as right and wrong. What he defines as right and wrong, just and unjust is clearly different than you.. but to say it's hypocrisy because that reason is trying to assign the character your own moral codes and ethics which is clearly does not have.

Yes, and yet moral hypocrisy does exist in the real world and also in the Buffyverse. Society does have some moral codes (where laws come from) that are a consensus: that a) is wrong but b) is worse and yet c) isn't as bad as those two.

When we talk about things like taking a life we can start talking about universal ethics.

And not only soulled Spike is guilty of moral hypocrisy. So are Xander and Buffy.
It's a fairly odious character flaw.

 

[Blaze]

Well I guess that's fine when you're talking about little things such as nabbing a parking space or whatever, but if its a case of rape and murder then I see a big difference.
I kill 3 people and then go to jail. Years later in the parole meeting I say I feel bad about killing this one guy (because he was my friend) but couldn't give a crap about those other two ('cause dude, I didn't even know them that well).

Surprisingly I don't get my parole because the board does not consider me a decent, moral person.

But it's different here because Spike (soul) didn't commit those crimes. The reason he feels bad about Buffy is because he loves her, therefore he feels bad that something bad happened to her. Even more so that his unsouled counterpart is the one to hurt her. He doesn't feel bad that Robin lost his mom because Robin literally comes after him and tries to kill him. Circumstantially , there's a big difference there.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But it's different here because Spike (soul) didn't commit those crimes. The reason he feels bad about Buffy is because he loves her, therefore he feels bad that something bad happened to her. Even more so that his unsouled counterpart is the one to hurt her. He doesn't feel bad that Robin lost his mom because Robin literally comes after him and tries to kill him. Circumstantially , there's a big difference there.

Exactly. And further you can feel bad and responsible for heinous actions, but not feel guilt over it. He was doing his 'job' as Nikki was. There should be not guilt from that.

Now if Spike and Robin became friends and they shared some sort of bond, then yeah, Spike might feel guilt over it. Just as he felt guilt over what he did to/with Buffy.

 

[thetopher]

But it's different here because Spike (soul) didn't commit those crimes. The reason he feels bad about Buffy is because he loves her, therefore he feels bad that something bad happened to her.

But he doesn't say 'I'm sorry that happened to you' he says 'I can' say I'm sorry' because HE feels responsible, not because it was something bad that happened to the woman he loves.

He doesn't feel bad that Robin lost his mom because Robin literally comes after him and tries to kill him. Circumstantially , there's a big difference there.

But he doesn't just NOT apologize to Wood (that I could understand I suppose), he goes out of his way to say 'I don't care' and pisses on the man's memory of his Mom/the relationship he had with his Mom.

Plus he continues to feel pride (he wears the coat, he tells Angel and co that he's killed a couple of slayers in his time) in his actions. He also takes great 'pride' in telling Angel about all the times he 'put it to' Buffy when they square off- a stark contrast to how he treats Buffy in the previous year.