Should there have been more of a reaction after "Helpless"?

[Robb Stark]

Against Giles I mean. He saves the day at the end but really, that whole deal was a mess of his own making. I know he never really supported it, and he was "just following orders" until he came to his senses, but really, he was the one who went along with it, the one who horribly abused Buffy's trust and drugged her, lied to her and basically took advantage of their relationship in one of the most heinous ways I can think of.

Buffy gets angry initially, but seems to forget the whole thing after Travers talks about how much Giles loves her. And none of the other Scoobies seem to have any kind of backlash towards him at all. If anything, he's looked on more fondly by them when Wesley arrives and blunders onto the scene.

So...should there have been, I don't know, some sort of reprimand for Giles? If not from Buffy then by Angel, Xander or Willow? I've always thought that would have made a great final scene to that episode. Giles at home and he gets a knock on the door. It's one of those three (Angel fits the best I think), and they tell him that if anything like that happens again, they'll end him. I was a little surprised that didn't happen, especially with Angel and Xander, considering the lengths they've gone to for Buffy.

 

[Kean]

A lot of that episode didn't add up. Why did a superpowerless Buffy go into that house alone? Why weren't Giles and Angel, especially, with her? It put both Buffy's and her mother's life at extreme risk. I get the episode was trying to convey some kind of female empowerment message but seriously, the show is called Buffy the Vampire Slayer. We get it. She's a boss, a BAMF and HBIC. We know and we love it but I can't imagine she would have risked her mother's life to prove a point.

As for Giles, he definitely should have been reproached but there seems to be this Get Out of Jail Free Card for Giles, Xander and Willow. No matter they do they never ever get crap for it. All is forgiven and forgotten when it's those three, while pretty much everyone else raked across hot stones.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Agreed. It seems to be a Milgram experiment, where people who should know better are told to do something wrong and they do it because of their own fears. I would not have been dismayed if Buffy had killed Giles and the rest of the Watcher's Council and I was one of many who cheered when the Watcher's Council finally got blown to bits in Season 7 - maybe Quentin Travers should have been the Big Bad for one season.

Giles should have known better - his complicity in the death of a friend in his college years should have impelled him to follow his own moral compass. Instead, he chose obedience, that great force multiplier for psychopathic individuals and organizations of the world.

The amount of forgiveness on this show is unrealistic, even if the writers thought it was admirable. With me, once you blow the trust fuse, that's it. There are no second chances, mitigating circumstances or working your way back to a position of trust. If I am forced to deal with you after a breach of trust, I treat anything you say as an input to a forensic investigation - if you say situation X happened, I try to determine, what is the situation Y that really happened? I don't think I am alone in this, but unlike the test failures in the Milgram experiment, I don't care whether anyone agrees or not.

 

[Icarium]

From a meta perspective, no it shouldn't have, because I wanted to forget about the whole thing since it made no sense whatsoever.

A lot of that episode didn't add up. Why did a superpowerless Buffy go into that house alone? Why weren't Giles and Angel, especially, with her?

Why does a vampire need pills? Where is Faith? Why do we need the episode to prove Buffy used her brain to defeat opponents, not just her superpowers when we had already seen that many times before? And so on...

As for Giles, he definitely should have been reproached but there seems to be this Get Out of Jail Free Card for Giles, Xander and Willow. No matter they do they never ever get crap for it. All is forgiven and forgotten when it's those three, while pretty much everyone else raked across hot stones.

I think you meant Giles, Xander and Willow, Buffy, Spike, Anya, Angel, Andrew and every other character the writers wanted to keep in the show. 🙂 Buffy has been stabbed in the back like 34 times by now and usually forgives the people who do it quite easily. And she has been forgiven quite easily many times too.

I would not have been dismayed if Buffy had killed Giles and the rest of the Watcher's Council

So Buffy refuses to kill the human villains who have actually murdered people but you wouldn't have been surprised if she had killed Giles, the guy who had previously saved her life multiple times?

It's one of those three (Angel fits the best I think), and they tell him that if anything like that happens again, they'll end him.

Angel? The guy who has hurt Giles and Buffy so horribly? It would have come off as incredibly hypocritical from him. Maybe through no fault of his own but he is much more of ticking time-bomb than Giles could ever be.

There is also the missed opportunities to use the Cruciamentum as one of the reasons for Faith switching sides. Does she ever learn what happened?

 

[patriot1123]

Giles redeemed himself, which is why there was no reason for backlash. He terminated his own participation in the "test" early on, told Buffy evrything, and believed that he had terminated the test. He had no way to know that the experiment had "gone horribly wrong," and when he found out that it did, he rushed over and risked his life to save Buffy and her mother. It's the choice he made when it counted. He repudiated the council, growled at Quentin and shoved him, and interfered with the test and saved Buffy. And got fired for it. What other rebuke would be necessary? Or even appropriate?

 

[Robb Stark]

Angel? The guy who has hurt Giles and Buffy so horribly? It would have come off as incredibly hypocritical from him. Maybe through no fault of his own but he is much more of ticking time-bomb than Giles could ever be.

It's different. Angel had no way of knowing that he was going to lose his soul. Giles knew exactly what that test was and what it's purposes were, and while he does backtrack and do the right thing in the end, he was still knocking Buffy out and drugging her. There's not nearly the ambiguity there with Giles that there clearly is with Angel.

And yeah, it makes sense if Angel says something to Giles. He didn't choose to kill Jenny Calender, even if he feels horrible about it. It wouldn't be hypocritical at all. Giles chose to betray Buffy's trust. Angel didn't.

Giles redeemed himself, which is why there was no reason for backlash. He terminated his own participation in the "test" early on, told Buffy evrything, and believed that he had terminated the test. He had no way to know that the experiment had "gone horribly wrong," and when he found out that it did, he rushed over and risked his life to save Buffy and her mother. It's the choice he made when it counted. He repudiated the council, growled at Quentin and shoved him, and interfered with the test and saved Buffy. And got fired for it. What other rebuke would be necessary? Or even appropriate?

For sure, he comes through big time in the end, but no matter how much you like Giles, you have to admit going through with it at all, taking Buffy's powers from her and lying to her face about it while she's trying to figure it out, is pretty disgusting. To be fair though you're right, I had forgotten that he believes the test to be invalidated. Good point.

The fact remains though, none of that happens, at all, without his involvement, however reluctant. He does get fired, yeah, and seeing him stand up to Travers was pretty awesome, but does that just excuse it? I'm not so sure. I was more surprised that no one, Xander, Angel, hell, Joyce, said anything to him about it. I think that would be more than appropriate.

 

[Icarium]

There's not nearly the ambiguity there with Giles that there clearly is with Angel.

On the flip side there are not nearly as many people dying as a result of Giles's betrayal than there are as a result of Angel losing his soul. In fact, I don't think anyone died as a result of it, the victims of Kralik are victims of Travers and their own ineptitude. Yes, Angel was possessed in a sense but also he never made any effort to try to remove the loophole in his curse after he learned about it which is just criminally stupid. He assumed that perfect happiness will always equal sex for some reason. Sure, most of this was just an artificial way to send him to his spin-off but still Angel is hardly in a position to lecture anyone on playing with fire. Least of all Giles, the guy who has shown nigh on superhuman lenience towards Angel. He probably shouldn't have done so, considering the events of S8, by the way...

Also, Giles was between a rock and a hard place, he was going to have to betray somebody. We have seen very little of the Council so it's natural we would think he should have picked to betray them, not Buffy but he has worked for them far longer than he has known Buffy. It's more of a plot problem because the cruciamentum makes no sense not just from a moral but from a practical standpoint, either. The Council is too much of a strawman, it's never fleshed out. The way it's portrayed one wonders how the hell the world has survived for so long if most previous Slayers were obedient to the wishes of that bunch of morons...

 

[RipperGilesFan]

Giles at home and he gets a knock on the door. It's one of those three (Angel fits the best I think), and they tell him that if anything like that happens again, they'll end him. I was a little surprised that didn't happen, especially with Angel and Xander, considering the lengths they've gone to for Buffy.

Angel ?? Really? I think he's about the last one who has the right to confront Giles about anything. Not with his past and what he did to Giles. Hence Angel should thank his lucky stars Giles did not fire that bolt when Angel came knocking on his door asking for his help after what he did to him...

Giles was born an raised in a watcher family/world and rebelled against it before, which backfired on him big time. While condemning what he did initially I could see why he did what he did. The fact that in the end he risked all to save Buffy and her Mother, to me showed what he was made off, and I think to Buffy and the scoobs to.

Agreed. It seems to be a Milgram experiment, where people who should know better are told to do something wrong and they do it because of their own fears. I would not have been dismayed if Buffy had killed Giles and the rest of the Watcher's Council and I was one of many who cheered when the Watcher's Council finally got blown to bits in Season 7

It would have been okay with you if the same Buffy who refused to kill villains like Warren ( and a lesser degree Ben) killed Giles, who saved her on ore than one occassion and loved her like a father?...wow.....that's a bit weird IMHO.

 

[TotallySpiked]

I was really shocked to know that Giles played a part in it when I first saw it. But I can understand why he did it - it was after all his job and his duty to the council. Like it was stated above, Giles ended up turning his back on the whole thing (as did Buffy) and helped Buffy and in turn got fired. So it's not like he got out of the whole thing scott-free. If I was in Buffy's position, I would have forgiven him, too. He's proven time and time again to be on her side and I will always believe he has her best interests at heart even if I don't necessarily agree with it.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I was really shocked to know that Giles played a part in it when I first saw it. But I can understand why he did it - it was after all his job and his duty to the council. Like it was stated above, Giles ended up turning his back on the whole thing (as did Buffy) and helped Buffy and in turn got fired. So it's not like he got out of the whole thing scott-free. If I was in Buffy's position, I would have forgiven him, too. He's proven time and time again to be on her side and I will always believe he has her best interests at heart even if I don't necessarily agree with it.

He helped Buffy only after things had gone totally off the rails, two people from the Watcher's Council had been killed and Buffy's mother had been kidnapped and dragged into it. Otherwise, he would have been obedient. "I was just following orders" was an excuse that didn't fly with the judges at Nuremburg when nazis were arrested for war crimes and it doesn't fly with me. The Milgram experiment was performed to determine what it would take to get people to abandon any moral principles and the answer is, not much. "It's just my job" is the same excuse you hear from Mafia hit men.

 

[RipperGilesFan]

Don't know if you read my next post, but I answered that. You can't fault Angel for Angelus. There's a difference there.

@ Alway Bangel I don´t make that much difference between Angel and Angelus. To me Angel is Angelus with a soul and is Angelus Angel without a soul.

Angel even said himself that the demon takes part over from the body/personality it possesses (Upon Willow stating VampWillow looks kind gay)

So yeach not 100 % responsible but not 100 % in the clear either. But that's just my own view.

 

[TotallySpiked]

He helped Buffy only after things had gone totally off the rails, two people from the Watcher's Council had been killed and Buffy's mother had been kidnapped and dragged into it. Otherwise, he would have been obedient. "I was just following orders" was an excuse that didn't fly with the judges at Nuremburg when nazis were arrested for war crimes and it doesn't fly with me. The Milgram experiment was performed to determine what it would take to get people to abandon any moral principles and the answer is, not much. "It's just my job" is the same excuse you hear from Mafia hit men.

His actions were never excused they were just forgiven. Giles had been raised by a Watcher and those ways had been drilled into him so of course he was going to follow them. His character is proven though when he decides that he doesn't want to go through with it. To me, it doesn't matter when he came to his senses, it's the fact that he did. The way I see it; if it was a good enough explanation for Buffy, it should be good enough for us. We hear Buffy say (at a later point in the series) that if she had her time again, she would probably let Dawn die instead of herself to save the world if she had to. Not in the same vain, but still an ultimate betrayal - Buffy would do it though because it was 'her job'.

 

[Robb Stark]

@ Alway Bangel I don´t make that much difference between Angel and Angelus. To me Angel is Angelus with a soul and is Angelus Angel without a soul.

I've never understood this perception. I don't see how people can't differentiate between a serial killer who terrorizes Buffy and someone who saves the world and sacrifices everything for Buffy. I think it must be just simply not liking the character, and obviously, with Angel being a favorite of mine, that's something I just don't understand.

However, my point (rounding back to the thread topic) was that it wasn't Angel who murdered Jenny Calender, it was the demon without a soul. And if Giles is going to deliberately put Buffy's life in danger because he was "just following orders", regardless of how he solves the problem by the end of the episode, then yeah, Angel, who's in love with Buffy, is the perfect person to do it.

 

[RipperGilesFan]

I've never understood this perception. I don't see how people can't differentiate between a serial killer who terrorizes Buffy and someone who saves the world and sacrifices everything for Buffy. I think it must be just simply not liking the character, and obviously, with Angel being a favorite of mine, that's something I just don't understand.

However, my point (rounding back to the thread topic) was that it wasn't Angel who murdered Jenny Calender, it was the demon without a soul. And if Giles is going to deliberately put Buffy's life in danger because he was "just following orders", regardless of how he solves the problem by the end of the episode, then yeah, Angel, who's in love with Buffy, is the perfect person to do it.

Disliking Angel ? Nah not really. I'm rather neutral about him, not my favourite but no strong dislike of the character here either. But because I don't make a strong distinction between Angel and Angelus I don't think he has any right of speaking up in the matter.

Lastly, it was when Giles realized Buffy's life was in danger that he intervened, so the claim he 'deliberately put her in danger' is a rather empty claim to me 🙄

---------- Post added at 06:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:49 PM ----------

@ Always Bangel

He also said he never had a choice for what he did as Angelus (to Faith). What he meant to Willow was the demon is influenced by his souled personality

"What he meant to Willow was the demon is influenced by his souled personality"

Which is exactly my point; Angel is not completely absent in Angelus, like Angelus is not completely absent within Angel.

 

[Robb Stark]

@ Always Bangel

"What he meant to Willow was the demon is influenced by his souled personality"

Which is exactly my point; Angel is not completely absent in Angelus, like Angelus is not completely absent within Angel.

Sure, the demon has Angel's memories, but not a shred of his personality. It's perfectly clear from the way Angel acts and the way Angelus acts that they're radically different from one another. The demon is still inside Angel when he has a soul (which is why he's so pissed with Buffy after he resurfaces in S2), but it's not him.

Sorry, I'm not trying to argue, but I just don't get it. If they're the same being, why would Angel be pretty much the ultimate hero with a soul after he meets Buffy, and a regular schmuck before he lost it initially hundreds of years ago, and a monster without it? They're different.

And Angel being the one to say something to Giles was just one example. Xander would have worked just as well.

 

[RipperGilesFan]

Sure, the demon has Angel's memories, but not a shred of his personality. It's perfectly clear from the way Angel acts and the way Angelus acts that they're radically different from one another. The demon is still inside Angel when he has a soul (which is why he's so pissed with Buffy after he resurfaces in S2), but it's not him.

Sorry, I'm not trying to argue, but I just don't get it. If they're the same being, why would Angel be pretty much the ultimate hero with a soul after he meets Buffy, and a regular schmuck before he lost it initially hundreds of years ago, and a monster without it? They're different.

And Angel being the one to say something to Giles was just one example. Xander would have worked just as well.

Well, I'm sorry, I just don't separate Angel from Angelus the way you do. So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue.

Xander? Hmmm Not really the person to do so either, I think. I remember him misleading Buffy on a major issue as well : "willow asked me to tell you.... kick his [Angel] ass" (becoming part II). If it should have been any of them Willow should have been the one. But she seemed more out of sync by Giles getting fired than what occurred before, so apparently she did not feel the need for a big showdown (anymore).

Maybe it's the dynamics of the group, they all had to forgive each other at some point -- buffy the scoobs, the scoobs buffy, Buffy Giles and Giles Buffy --and they did because they knew that when it really mattered they could count on each other.

 

[kittenpoker]

Why does a vampire need pills? Where is Faith? Why do we need the episode to prove Buffy used her brain to defeat opponents, not just her superpowers when we had already seen that many times before? And so on...

Yes, this has always bothered me - that a vampire needs pills, which becomes buffy's really only way of defeating him... and that yes, she absolutely does NOT need to prove her mental skills. We see constantly that she assesses her environment and quickly uses whatever is at her disposal to her advantage. The Faith question, is a good question also.

Probably there should have been more of a reaction to Giles' actions - as there should be to many many many other character's actions (I'm specifically thinking of gingerbread man - really buffy's mom was ready and willing to burn her at the stake - she remembers this - because she's no longer under sunnydale's spell of forget - and there's no more mention of it)....but I just go with - stuff happens between eps. That helps me sleep at night. 🙂