Signing away the Shanshu Prophecy

[Robb Stark]

How did you feel about the scene? I loved it. I felt like it summed up everything cool about Angel in about as great a moment as possible. He knows exactly what he's giving up, what it means, the gravity of it, and he doesn't flinch. Not for a second, because he knows it's right. Pretty awesome to me.

I've heard theories that he never actually signed his name, but instead signed "Anger", or something to that effect. I'm not so sure though. His signature is a quick scroll blurred by blood. Plus, it kind of diminishes the impact of the scene if that's the case.

I like the Shanshu Prophecy on the whole a lot, but I felt like they could have done better with it in "After the Fall". The explanation of "the paperwork was never actually filed" seemed pretty weak to me. What did you guys think?

 

[Ethan Reigns]

That was my theory that he signed "Anger". I thought that after running a law firm for a season, he finally got something legally right - if it isn't your signature, you are not held to the terms.

If you recall "I Will Remember You", he has already given up on the prospect of becoming human so he could live with Buffy. He realizes that she will be killed if he does that and also that he will no longer be able to fight.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I always thought the common sense answer is you can't sign away a prophecy to begin with...

At the time it was the best way the Circle of the Black Thorn had of verifying Angel's loyalty, and I figure they assumed Angel was dumb/naive enough to fall for it.

The Shanshu Prophecy wasn't a gift certificate, it was a prophecy of event that was to come. If you could sign away a prophecy...

1.) Why didn't Giles have Buffy sign away the one about the Master killing her?

2.) Why didn't Sajhan sign away the prophecy about Connor killing him?

 

[white avenger]

It's my understanding that he wrote "Anger," not "Angel" on the paper, which would make the contract useless. Also, the Shanshu isn't something that Angel owns, it's more or less payment for services to be rendered sometime in the future, so, once more, how can he sign away something that he doesn't have at this time? Remember, the Shanshu isn't the prize in a competition, it's the foretelling of Angel's fate, and as we have seen consistently in the Buffyverse, fate is inevitable, so he can't even sign away his eligibility to win it at some time in the future.

 

[Robb Stark]

He was signing away his eligibility to it, if that makes any sense. And I don't know if fate is inevitable. Buffy and Angel defy the Twilight Prophecy in S8. They have to go through hell and high water to do so, but ultimately it is avoided.

And [MENTION=8682]Buffyverse Fan[/MENTION], sure, dramatic device does come into play. The Shanshu is consistently portrayed as the pot of gold at the end of the proverbial rainbow for Angel. It's shown to be a good thing that he desires very much. It's just a guess, but whatever cosmic forces are at work behind the various prophecies (if indeed, there are any at all...beyond Joss) would be pretty dim if they just permitted people to say bad things are never going to happen and that's how it turned out. Angel removing himself from the running of something he desires is plausible.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

As far as I remember he was to play a major role in the apocalypse, but no one knew which side he'd be on.
So the Circle wanted to know, they had him join their team. And who cares if he signed as Angel, Anger or even Serendipity (his stripper name)(Warehouse 13 reference). It does not matter, the fact of the matter is he signed it and he had witnesses to his signing it.
If it was his blood he used to sign it, then because it was his blood he could have signed as Buffy. The document wasn't to be used in a court of law, it was for The Circle of the Black Thorn. Angel could of made an X, but it was written in his blood and that is all they wanted.
Killing off the rest of the circle would not change him being a member, and still is a member. If he is the only one, then he decides what its direction is unless it was written what the objectives are.

Is fun predicted for season 10?

 

[Robb Stark]

Just as a point of interest, if Angel really did sign "Anger", why wasn't that mentioned at all in "After the Fall"? The Shanshu is delved into with great detail there, and that isn't even broached once, or at least not from what I can recall.

 

[Kean]

If he had signed "Anger" then the Black Thorn never would have bought. I honestly don't think there is anything to this theory. DB has weird handwriting, that's it as far as I am concerned.

Like many of you have said already, I don't think Angel gets to make the call on whether he is still in line for Shanshu or not. That isn't how it works, it certainly isn't how anything has every worked out for Angel.

Shanshu is forgiveness, Angel doesn't get to decided if he is forgiven or not.

 

[Kana]

I think the significance is that Angel was willing to sacrifice his hope of becoming human for the good fight. Whether he can sign away his destiny or not, the point is, he seemed to believe he could and was willing to do so. To me, the scene with Harmony wouldn't make much sense if he didn't believe it.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I think the significance is that Angel was willing to sacrifice his hope of becoming human for the good fight. Whether he can sign away his destiny or not, the point is, he seemed to believe he could and was willing to do so. To me, the scene with Harmony wouldn't make much sense if he didn't believe it.

I completely agree! That being said, now that we're approaching three seasons later, it does sort of matter.

I stand by not believing you can sign away a prophecy. It's not a gift certificate or an IOU. In fact, being turned human isn't even necessarily a good thing in the Buffyverse. Sure it is for Angel because he's cursed to be unhappy, but Spike for example is better off in a lot of ways as a vampire.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

I have watched that scene many times and think that Angel signed it as "Angel",case closed.

 

[CordelliasHeart]

Hadnt finished angel season 5 yet... thanks for the spoiler...

Sighs... have to say... I think... that takes his "Selfless sacrafice" Thing over the top...

I'd like to see him actualy become and stay human as the FINAL end to the series.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

[MENTION=8682]Buffyverse Fan[/MENTION], sure, dramatic device does come into play. The Shanshu is consistently portrayed as the pot of gold at the end of the proverbial rainbow for Angel. It's shown to be a good thing that he desires very much. It's just a guess, but whatever cosmic forces are at work behind the various prophecies (if indeed, there are any at all...beyond Joss) would be pretty dim if they just permitted people to say bad things are never going to happen and that's how it turned out. Angel removing himself from the running of something he desires is plausible.

It's still a prophecy, not a Walmart gift card.

Yes, Angel mostly wants it, but let's look at Spike. Say Spike was the Shanshu vampire, could he sign the prophecy away? In his case, he's not sure if he wants to be human, he seems to quite enjoy his superpowers, and doesn't suffer from the "perfect happiness" curse, so, what, Spike could sign it away if he's in a pro-human mood, but five minutes later when he's up on his powers he could not? The logic just doesn't hold up.

 

[danajsparks]

I watched AtS for the first time a couple of weeks ago. I don't know if there is any significance to this, but my immediate reaction when I saw him sign the document in NFA was, "That's not his normal signature." It didn't occur to me that he had written "Anger" instead of "Angel;" I just observed that his signature looked wrong. I don't have a screencap handy to back this up, but we've been shown his signature before, and I'm pretty sure that it's in a beautiful, cursive script.

I also noted as I was watching the episode that he later tells Connor that he has "very nice handwriting," and I wondered if that was a clue that something was "off" about his signature on the prophecy, since his handwriting was so messy there.

 

[danajsparks]

Here's a comparison of his signature in Origin (it's the memory change contract) and in NFA.

 

[thetopher]

Here's a comparison of his signature in Origin (it's the memory change contract) and in NFA.

Looks like he signed it 'Agor'.

Those 'Black Thorn guys really are a bunch of suckers. 🙂