Sir Robert Kane's Twilight Compendium

[Black Eye Guy]

Okay so bit of a stretch but I'm watching Revelations for BuffyTV and when the new "watcher" Gwendolyn is mocking Giles collection of books she's naming books to see if he has them and we get this:

Gwendolyn: Well, I suppose that you have Sir Robert Kane's Twilight
Compendium?

Giles: Oh! Uh... (looks around) Yes, I... (spots the book) Yes! (pulls
it out) Yes, I do. (holds it up)

Gwendolyn: (unimpressed) Of course you do. (paces past him) I have been
sent by the council for a very important reason.

Obviously there's the word Twilight in there, so I was thinking Season 8, but if you throw in Gwen being unimpressed could this be the book that has the rumors about Twilight Giles mentions?

 

[Blaze]

Very good catch! Now I'm quite curious too, but I also have no answer to the question. It'd be neat if it actually was linked in some way.

 

[Robb Stark]

Interesting point of interest. I don't think there's any way in the world that things were planned that way (although thinking about it a little more, it's possible that Joss or whoever invented the concept of "Twilight" for S8 was thumbing through old episodes and storylines and came across it), but it's kind of the type of thing that works in a neat way if you head-canon it.

If it is a book on Twilight though, it's at least nice to know that out there somewhere, someone understands what the hell Twilight is or was...

 

[EVIL UU]

There's a few season 8 references in the early seasons, like Angel's tattoo for instance.



Winged lion. Was it planned all along? I don't care but considering how creepy Buffy's and Angel's relationship is since day one that might just be the case.

 

[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=11194]EVIL UU[/MENTION],

Angel's tattoo is a griffon, not a lion.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]
No. Look at its head, it's a head of a lion.

Griffon is a legendary creature with the body, tail, and back legs of a lion; the head and wings of an eagle

The tattoo is a winged lion. It's borrowed from tarot (two of cups )

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Thats interesting, I'd always heard it was a Griffon and never really looked at it, but it doesn't have a beak, the head doesn't look like a bird at all.

And after googleing, it seems it is a winged lion. It's from the book of Kells which was written by Irish monks, the color image of the original clearly shows it isn't a birds head:

So, despite various descriptions of it as a bird or gryphon, it is in fact a winged demi-lion perched on the letter A. The design of the lion has even been tracked down, by an enterprising soul (Zenkitty – whose webpage sadly no longer seems to be available) as a slight variant of an illustration in the Book of Kells. Where it is one of the four traditional winged figures representing the Evangelists. It is of course the symbol for St Mark; with the ox representing St Luke; the eagle, St John; and the man, St Mathew.

In British heraldry a gryphon (also spelt griffin or griffon) has the body, hind-legs and tail of a lion, with the head, ears, wings and foreclaws of an eagle. A mythical creature with the body and head of a lion and the wings of an eagle is strictly speaking known as a winged lion, but some people mistakenly call it a gryphon. Further eccentric souls, presumably unaware that they are all just variant spellings for the same creature, try to make spurious distinctions between Gryphons, Griffins and Griffons according to exactly what body parts from each beast each one has. None of which had any basis in heraldry and all of which annoys pedants such as me no end.

Source

Thats crazy that it hasn't been mentioned more, I had never seen anyone say it, but it's a pretty big deal he has a winged lion on his back and thats what Twilight appeared to Angel as!

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=5973]Black Eye Guy[/MENTION]

It gets better. Winged Lion has it's own symbolism, in the Bible ( Book of Revelation, Lion of Saint Mark, Venice etc ) alchemy ( a message of combination - a juxtaposition between beginnings and endings, fact and potential, the seeker and the accomplished ) and in tarot:



The meaning to two of cups is pretty interesting in relation to Buffy and Angel, what's more interesting though is that the card used here is not the lovers. I guess they are not so perfect for each other after all, huh?

It gets better. The winged lion was created by Buffy and Angel. Wings? That's obviously Angel. Lion?

That's crazy that it hasn't been mentioned more, I had never seen anyone say it, but it's a pretty big deal he has a winged lion on his back and thats what Twilight appeared to Angel as!

I think I mentioned it in some thread on this board. Personally, I figured out the whole Angel is Twilight thing reading issue 6, that's where the winged lion is seen for the first time. It's quite obvious.

 

[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=11194]EVIL UU[/MENTION],

I think it's fairly clear that it's supposed to be a gryphon. I could be wrong of course, but it has always seemed like a gryphon. There's no way in hell, no way, that Joss or anyone else anticipated Twilight back in S1 of BTVS. You're right, it was pretty obvious that Angel was Twilight (the "I've seen that move before" line was what did it for me), but I think it's a reach to suggest that his tattoo somehow correlates to it.

This is a site I found a long time ago kind of going into the meaning and symbolism of Angel's tattoo. Granted, it's just someone's interpretation of what it means or could mean, but really, that's all we're doing here anyways.

http://maquisleader.com/buffy/tattoo.htm

There's no chance Joss or anyone else intended to make a connection between Angel and Twilight as early as S1.

The meaning to two of cups is pretty interesting in relation to Buffy and Angel, what's more interesting though is that the card used here is not the lovers. I guess they are not so perfect for each other after all, huh?

It gets better. The winged lion was created by Buffy and Angel. Wings? That's obviously Angel. Lion?

Dude, with respect, you just went out, found a picture, put your own doctrine on it and called it fact. That picture is never seen in BTVS, it's never mentioned or referenced in any situation by any of the characters. It's just something you saw that you feel looks like something that relates to Twilight. It doesn't even remotely affect the canon of the show or the comics. And considering that the entire point of Twilight (as convoluted as it was) was to establish that Buffy and Angel are "The One" for one another (and please, before we get into that, when the primary catalyst for the universe's next stage of evolution is them repeatedly making love with each other, that's a pretty tough part to get around), it seems like you're really reaching.

As for the second picture, that's a scene of Buffy on one of her spirit walks or whatever they were walking with a cat. Just because Buffy has seen a lion at some point in her life, it suddenly means that she and Angel "obviously" created Twilight? Come on. That makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

[MENTION=11194]EVIL UU[/MENTION],

I think it's fairly clear that it's supposed to be a gryphon.

I agree the second picture doesn't apply as it's just a winged lion on a tarrot card so doesn't mean anything to BtVS.

The the picture I posted was from the book of Kells which the design for Angels tattoo was based off, you can see they are the same image, and it's not a griffon it is a lion with wings. Angels tattoo doesn't have a birds head.

I also agree it's doubtful that they thought of Twilight in season 1, but there nothing to stop them creating the character in season 8 after rewatching the earlier scenes.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]

There's no chance Joss or anyone else intended to make a connection between Angel and Twilight as early as S1.

Why not? Dawn was foreshadowed in season 3, stuff from season 7 in season 4. Many franchises start with a bible, why not this one?

That picture is never seen in BTVS

This particular card not, but tarot is featured and referenced in multiple episodes of the show. Hell, the show has an official tarot deck. So when a creature straight from a tarot card shows up in the comic I start digging. It's like with all the mythological references in BtVS, the goddesses, the demons and such. It's interesting and most of the time it makes sense.

I think it's fairly clear that it's supposed to be a gryphon.

It's not a Griffon. From the link you posted:

The inspiration for the tattoo seems to be from the Book of Kells. Where it is one of the four traditional winged figures representing the Evangelists. It is the symbol for Saint Mark

The symbol of Saint Mark is a Winged Lion. It's called the lion of Saint Mark, it's also the symbol of Venice. It's been like that for the last 2000 years or so. So, if the Book of Kells is indeed an inspiration then Angel's tattoo represents a Winged Lion.

that's a scene of Buffy on one of her spirit walks or whatever

Everything we see in Buffy's visions or dreams, with the notable exception of The Cheese Man, matters. Seriously, everything. It's referenced sooner or later.

she and Angel "obviously" created Twilight?

The creature refers to them as mother and father.

 

[Kean]

It's definitely a winged lion. And it's definitely modeled on the Lion of St. Mark from the Book of Kells. I'm not sure why it is so often thought to be a gryphon. I know I've probably called it a gryphon before. It's bit like how a lot of people say Angel went to Nepal after Buffy died but in reality he went to Sri Lanka.

INT. KITCHEN - CONTINUOUS

She gets the first aid kit. Angel follows her in, slipping out of his shirt. She takes a moment to register the fact of Angel naked from the waist up.

BUFFY
Nice tattoo.
He has a WINGED LION tattoo behind his left shoulder. She moves to him, bandages him under:

Source: Shooting Script

 

[Blaze]

My mind has been blown reading this thread.

I don't think it's a coincidence they chose Twilight in s8 based on some stuff from s1. They probably thought about it while doing the rewatch (and not while constructing s1), but still, very clever from the writers!