Slayer Calling?

If however you choose to believe as we of the "believe what Season 7 tells you" group do, you would believe that after Bargaining 1 the death of Buffy would trigger a new slayer.

I just want to be clear about that. Buffy's death would not trigger a slayer in the Gift, but it would after Bargaining 1. You believe this if you choose to believe what S-7 tells you. There is no conflict here with what Joss says when he says the slayer line passes through Faith alone at the time of the Gift.
 
I agree that it would have been nice if they somewhere in season 7 told us a little more exactly what happened with the slayer line and how it works. Most of the time I love tha fact that they don't tell us everything and that nothing is really obvious. But since this is something so many people argue about I do wish they would have told us more about it.. (And even if they did tell us something about it now, I'm not sure I would count it, since it didn't actually happen on the show. I know that if Joss said it it would be the "truth", but still.. it's still not the same.)
 
No it wouldn't really be the same but if it was Joss who clarified the details then that would be good enough for me. He is the true PTB of the Buffyverse afterall! 😉
 
E
eponinethen
It would be good enough for me too, I would believe anything he said but.. well..
I know that darned cryptic Joss, eh? He's like if Moses came down from the Mount with the stone tablet, and you read the 10 commandments, but at the bottom would be carved, "I think...maybe".

So here's one then.

Compare these 2 questions: 1. What made it snow in Amends?
2. How did Miss Kitty Fantastico die?​

OK now which one of those 2 questions is closest (as far as the possiblility of offering a credible answer) to the question, - "What is the disruption in the Slayer Line Beljoxa's eye speaks of?"

I would say it's closest to # 2, because the text of Season 7 appears to offer an actual answer with both the Miss Kitty question and the Beljoxa's eye one. There is however, no real explanation from the text of the episode offered as an answer for the "snow in Amends" question .

So if you ask me who killed Miss Kitty Fantastico, and I say Dawn, you're not going to be offended, because the text of the episode appears to say "Yes. Dawn accidentally shot Miss Kitty with a cross bow, or at least she left a loaded one laying around, and is therefore still responsible".

When people ask me how the cat died. I tell them Dawn is responsible. The text backs me up. When people ask me how the slayer line works I tell them it runs through Faith from The Becoming 1 until Season 6, then it goes back to Buffy for sure, and possibly Faith as well. The text of the episodes tells me that's what happened.

If Joss doesn't want people coming to those conclusions he should tell them the text doesn't matter. Until he does though, I'm going to say the slayer line runs through Buffy in Season 7, because that's what the text of the episodes says happens.
 
Very good points but what it boils down to for me is this. How exactly did Buffy and the Scoobies know one way or another?

Like i said before, it was never really established within the show at any point before The Gift that Buffy's death the second time wouldn't call another slayer. Sure we knew that was the case because Joss made it clear but nobody within the series actually knew that, right? I mean there had never been a case like this before so Giles would have no clue as to what it really meant to the slayerline until Buffy actually died again. In fact nobody would.

So prior to The Gift they all would have only been guessing about what would happen when Buffy died again. It was only when she actually did and no new slayer was called (to the best of anyones knowledge) that everyone within the series could have been certain that Buffy had played her part already by activating Kendra. Basically that is the only evidence that they had to work with and therefore they would have had to come to that conclusion.

Now the next bit of evidence they got to contradict that as being the truth was when Giles and Anya spoke to the Beljoxa's Eye who told them that the slayerline had been disrupted and that The First was able to act because Buffy lived again. All fair enough. However ...

This occured in Showtime and yet the conversation the Scoobies had when Giles first arrived in Sunnydale with the potentials in Bring On the Night already suggested that the gang believed Buffy was still an active slayer whereas at this point they had no real reason to think this was the case.

My point is (longwinded though it may be! 😉) that if there was confusion before the evidence presented by Beljoxa's Eye was known who is to say that the Scoobies didn't continue to be confused beyond that revelation. The Eye certainly wasn't absolutely clear as to what it meant so who knows what the comments from Potential and other episodes were really based on. Factual research done offscreen by Giles or mere guesswork on the part of Dawn and the others?
 
So here's what I think you're telling me:

It's possible to create behind the scenes explanations for what happens on screen that contradict the obvious conclusions.

Of course it is. That's what fan-fic is all about.

Now does the "only through Faith" theory stand up any better if you apply fanfic reasoning to it. As you yourself say, all we have for proof of the "only through Faith" theory is a theoretical supposition from a cheerleader. She could have been wrong. She could have been high. She could have been anything you want her to be, if you want to create possibillities as to what might have happened behind the text to suggest we shouldn't take what she said seriously.

When the First tells Buffy "none of that wanna slay brigade will know real power unless you die", it's serious. Don't tell me about the possibility that maybe the first is just playing a brain game on Buffy, because I'm going to say well if I can't believe The First, or Dawn, or Buffy, then why should I believe Cordelia.

Again, this is the problem I have with you "only through Faith people". You tell me I can't believe what they tell me on screen, but you can't tell me why. All you can say is, "Well maybe something else was happening behind the scenes". OK if that's the case then what can you believe? Why does the only through Faith arguement all of a sudden become more credible?

Explicitly, and implicitly the writers are saying or implying the line runs through Buffy over and over again. Season 7 is about the disruption in the slayer line. If you don't have an explanation for it, nothing about S-7 makes sense. Believe what the writers tell you when they say the disruption is connected to the line now passing through Buffy, and all of a sudden everything about the season does make sense.
 
* Beljoxa's eye tells us distinctly there is a "disruption in the slayer line".

* Giles tells us the "disruption in the slayer line" was caused by Buffy coming back from the dead. Anya tells us it was a result of the spell her and Tara cast.

* If the disruption in the line does not have something to do with Buffy, then why does the First want to kill Faith, and keep Buffy alive.
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I have a theory about the answer to thsi question, buffy coming back mystically caused the disruption in the slayer line, so if buffy dies the disruption goes and that means that the first cant carry out its plan and the reason it wants to kill faith is because she is an experienced slayer so if she died and a new slayer was called she may not be as good as faith or maybe it was tying up loose ends or maybe it wanted her to die because if she came back it might have been worried she would kill buffy. The only thing i cant answer here is why buffy being brought back mystically caused the disruption in the line when th first time, although she wasnt brought back mystically, it didnt cause a disruption
 
First up i should mention that i'm not particularly an "only through Faith" person at all. I'm more a "there are reasons to go either way and i'm happy to speculate all the possibilities" kinda guy.

But as far as my last post goes i think you went off at a tangent as to what i was suggesting. I'm like you in that i tend to stick to what is being said in the script as to what i believe and usually that works just fine for me.

My problem here though is that what the Scoobies are stating as fact in the script through season seven has no factual evidence to back it up. Say that i was Xander, for example. What exactly had i learned prior to season seven to prove to me either way that Buffy would call another slayer after her next death? I would know that Buffy had called Kendra with her first death and i would know that no new slayer had been called after her second death. Therefore Xander-Me would have to assume that Buffy had played her part in the line already and that none of her future deaths (however many that might be, hehe) would activate another slayer.

That being the case then, why were they all suddenly assuming that Buffy was active again in Bring On the Night? At that point they had not spoken to Beljoxa's Eye and so they should all still be under the impression reached previously, Buffy had played her part.

Again what i was trying to say was that this is a discrepency in the storyline and because that is the case there is no reason to assume that the Scoobies were any less confused later on.

The First is a different matter as you would imagine that the ultimate evil would have a good idea about what was going on with Buffy, even if the Scoobies did not. The fact that The FIrst states Buffy is again active is the most compelling evidence that she actually was. My point before though was that all the other evidence was questionable due to the gangs lack of understanding as to what was going on.
 
Nothing means anything unless you know exactly what the disruption is. It's all just trying to jam the puzzle pieces in place.

Once you know the disruption is the line transferring into Buffy, now you've got something. You know why The First doesn't need Faith and why it does need Buffy.

You can create informed theories as to why the vampire with a soul is important to it's plan, and why The First would be interested in something like the Scythe which can connect through the slayer with the slayer line.

Edit:
Oh sorry Gothic, I was responding to Xin Rong then looked up and saw your post. Actually I think I can offer you an answer on this question:

My problem here though is that what the Scoobies are stating as fact in the script through season seven has no factual evidence to back it up. Say that i was Xander, for example. What exactly had i learned prior to season seven to prove to me either way that Buffy would call another slayer after her next death? I would know that Buffy had called Kendra with her first death and i would know that no new slayer had been called after her second death. Therefore Xander-Me would have to assume that Buffy had played her part in the line already and that none of her future deaths (however many that might be, hehe) would activate another slayer.

That being the case then, why were they all suddenly assuming that Buffy was active again in Bring On the Night? At that point they had not spoken to Beljoxa's Eye and so they should all still be under the impression reached previously, Buffy had played her part.
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Giles introduces Buffy as the slayer. Why wouldn't he? To Giles Buffy has always been the slayer. Giles has always refered to her as such, as have the scoobs. That doesn't mean they don't understand Cordelia's explanation of how the slayer line works, or that they've forgotten the only one Chosen one thing. They've always called Buffy The Slayer, and Faith a slayer. It's a title of respect.
 
nerd4hire said:
Once you know the disruption is the line transferring into Buffy, now you've got something. You know why The First doesn't need Faith and why it does need Buffy.
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But that is another issue i have with what we get from the script. Beljoxa's Eye never actually states that the line has reverted back through Buffy, not specifically anyway.

It states only that there has been a disruption in the slayerline and that Buffy's rebirth was what led to it. That isn't the same as saying that Buffy is now the active slayer again.

As i said in my last post the only really solid evidence to suggest that Buffy was active again is what The First itself said. Beljoxa's Eye was not clear about anything other than that Buffy was related to the problem and the Scoobies could definately only be guessing. The one being that can truly provide a concrete argument for the "line goes through Buffy again" theory is The First because only it was both in a position to know for a fact and also actually said the words that this was the case.

nerd4hire said:
Giles introduces Buffy as the slayer. Why wouldn't he? To Giles Buffy has always been the slayer. Giles has always refered to her as such, as have the scoobs. That doesn't mean they don't understand Cordelia's explanation of how the slayer line works, or that they've forgotten the only one Chosen one thing. They've always called Buffy The Slayer, and Faith a slayer. It's a title of respect.
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Actually that wasn't really what i was referring to, sorry N4H, should have made it clearer. I meant the fact that whilst they were discussing what The First's plan was they specifically suggested that it would wait until it had killed all the potentials (and Faith as well for that matter) before it finally killed Buffy. This means that they were suddenly all assuming again that she was the active slayer despite having no evidence at that point in the story to prove that fact.

See what i'm getting at?
 
Gothic said:
But that is another issue i have with what we get from the script. Beljoxa's Eye never actually states that the line has reverted back through Buffy, not specifically anyway.
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It's a chain of logic: Beljoxa's eye says the First is here because there is a disruption in the slayer line and it can now exploit it. Giles tells us Buffy coming back from the dead created the disruption, whatever it is. So what is it? Dawn, Buffy, Anya, Willow, Xander and The First all seem to believe the slayer line now runs through Buffy. It didn't before S-7, but now it does. Could this be the disruption Beljoxa's eye was speaking of. Hell ya.

It all makes sense now. The line can now be activated through Buffy and the scythe in any corrupt fashion the controller of both items would like. The old rules no longer apply.

Oh and Oops Gothic. Please check my edit in the post above.

Edit: Wait a minute now. I see you did and you state:

whilst they were discussing what The First's plan was they specifically suggested that it would wait until it had killed all the potentials (and Faith as well for that matter) before it finally killed Buffy.
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When did it say that? What I heard was - The First was trying to kill them. Buffy was the Slayer. She could protect them.

Where was it suggested at that time that the potentials thought the slayer line ran through Buffy, or even that they knew what a slayer line was?
 
nerd4hire said:
It's a chain of logic: Beljoxa's eye says the First is here because there is a disruption in the slayer line and it can now exploit it. Giles tells us Buffy coming back from the dead created the disruption, whatever it is. So what is it? Dawn, Buffy, Anya, Willow, Xander and The First all seem to believe the slayer line now runs through Buffy.
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That pretty much sums up the point of my side of the argument i think. What The First believes can be taken a lot more seriously than what the gang are all assuming from the cryptic information they got from Beljoxa's Eye.

Bottom line though is that i agree with you that, if we can trust what The First said to be true, then that combined with the information from Beljoxa's Eye would definately suggest the line passes through Buffy again. However i honestly don't believe that anything the Scoobies said can be taken as evidence though because they were never in a position to know anything for a fact.

nerd4hire said:
When did it say that? What I heard was - The First was trying to kill them. Buffy was the Slayer. She could protect them.

Where was it suggested at that time that the potentials thought the slayer line ran through Buffy, or even that they knew what a slayer line was?
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Not the potentials, the Scoobies. This is what i meant ...

"BUFFY: The First. That's what it wants.

GILES: Yes, to erase all the slayers in training and their watchers along with their methods.

BUFFY: And then Faith, and then me. And with all the potentials gone and no way of making another, it's the end. No more slayer. Ever."

This suggests to me that they were again already assuming that Buffy was the one who would activate the next slayer, why else would they assume that The First would leave her for last?
 
Actually I think I'm maybe even more cynical and harder to convince than yourself.

It wasn't any one thing that finally convinced me they were saying the slayer line now runs through Buffy. It was all the evidence just continuously piling up from Showtime to Chosen. That and the fact the season made more sense once I accepted the fact the slayer line had gone all screwy.

Edit:

We've gotta slow down, so we don't have to keep checking for each other's edits. 😀

But here's one:

BUFFY: And then Faith, and then me. And with all the potentials gone and no way of making another, it's the end. No more slayer. Ever."

This suggests to me that they were again already assuming that Buffy was the one who would activate the next slayer, why else would they assume that The First would leave her for last?
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And yet I just don't get that. I don't see any insinuation of the slayer line going through Buffy at that point in there. To me Buffy is just saying the First wants to kill all the potentials, all the slayers, and any way of making new ones. Buffy is a slayer. Why wouldn't she include herself in the list?
 
nerd4hire said:
We've gotta slow down, so we don't have to keep checking for each other's edits. 😀

And yet I just don't get that. I don't see any insinuation of the slayer line in there. To me Buffy is just saying the First wants to kill all the potentials, all the slayers, and any way of making new ones. Buffy is a slayer. Why wouldn't she include herself in the list?
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Hehe, why do you think i waited to post again once i saw you were modifying? 😀

As for the quote, it is the fact Buffy uses "then" twice in order to suggest a very specific order. First the potentials will be killed to prevent any future activations, then Faith and finally Buffy. She seems to think that The First will wait until all the other girls are dead before it kills her.

Now because we later learn that this is in fact true it has been glossed over but really at this point of the story Buffy and the others should have no reason to believe that this was what The First would do. As far as any of them know it could kill Buffy at any time and there would be no danger of another girl being called.

It's a minor thing really but it does go a long way in proving my point that the Scoobies were all speculating about Buffy's status rather than working on anything factual.
 
Well I will agree with you when you say it's a minor thing, and I really don't think it says what you want it to.

To me it says, the first wants to kill the potentials - they can become slayers.

It wants to kill Faith - She can activate a new slayer.

It wants to kill Buffy - She would be the last slayer and the last possible hope of finding anyway to re-activate the line.

And you know what? Now that I think about it. I don't remember anyone complaining about that line when it came out. I remember people complaining about Buffy telling the potentials the line passed through her, but I don't remember anyone complaining about this earlier one. Why is that? Is it possible no-one drew the conclusion you suggest. I'll have to look around to double-check that.

My interpretation though: There's nothing in that sentence that makes any kind of firm statement suggesting Buffy thinks the line passes through her at that point.

Later however, there is no doubt what Buffy, Dawn, and The First are saying, the line passes through Buffy.
 
Well truthfully i didn't notice this line myself until the third or fourth time i watched the episode. It is a relatively forgettable comment considering all the exposition it occurs in. That doesn't mean that my interpretation of what she says is incorrect though.

Ultimately at that point Buffy is easily the biggest threat to The First's plan and so you would imagine that Buffy would expect it to come after her first rather than leave her to protect the potentials and find a way to defeat it. If she doesn't believe that she can activate another slayer anymore then why does she assume that it won't take her out before any of the other girls? I honestly do think that, from what she says in that one line, she already believes herself to be active again. If she had said something like "And also Faith and myself" rather than "and then Faith, and then me" i would agree with you but she is specifically putting herself last in that sentence, there must be a reason for that as far as she is concerned.

The fact is that i believe this was just a slip by the writers. They knew where they were going with the plot for the season and accidentily had Buffy say something that didn't make a whole lot of sense at that point. It's not as if mistakes hadn't been made before in dialogue (Anya being able to drive or not being an obvious example when you compare Graduation Day Part 1 and Triangle) so you have to accept that not everything is going to make perfect sense and that there are mistakes along the way. Who knew what and when about the slayerline disruption during season seven just seemed to me to have more than it's fair share of discrepencies.
 
I don't know, I just can't get exited about that one.

Here's something though. You've seen the evidence for the idea the slayer line passes through Buffy in Season 7. Show me the other side.

Show me why one might believe the proponderance of evidence suggests Faith is still the slayer. Tell me why Season 7 makes more sense if Faith is still the slayer.
 
See that is exactly what i'm not trying to do. Like i've already said i'm no more in favour of the "Faith only" theory then i am of the "Buffy again" theory. I'll listen to both sides of the argument and make my mind up based on what i have heard up till then. But whatever theory is eventually proven to be accurate i'll be happy with.

The truth is that most of what is said throughout season seven does validate the "Buffy again" theory. My problem is that the flow of information is not consistent. The whole slayerline disruption needed to be addressed in much greater detail and what everybody knew needed to be clarified because i really don't think a lot of it makes sense. People were stating facts here and there without any reference to how they knew and what had led to that conclusion. In previous seasons you were able to follow the logic of what was being discovered and it made sense whilst in season seven things were being said by people who had no way of knowing them to be true. You were just supposed to accept that somehow they knew without anyone telling you why.

Basically it isn't that i won't believe Buffy had become the active slayer again, i'm more than happy to accept that, and it does make season seven a lot clearer. The problem for me is that there were far too many plotholes and gaps in the information we were given. It's one thing not to dumb down a show and explain every little plot point in great detail but it's another thing altogether to have the central plot of the entire season be confused and barely elaborated on. The facts about the disruption of the slayerline and what that led to needed to be set in stone. It was far too important an issue to be left so open ended.
 
I haven't read much of this thread, most because my mind is made up and all, but here's the big thing that really points towards the truth (although I'm sure it has been mentioned previously):

Why did the First-in-Caleb's form say to Buffy : "None of those girls will ever know true power unless you're dead"?

I mean if the First was smart enough to sense and seize on the disruption in the slayer-line, it would obviously know who the slayer is.

And that is just one of the many times the First referred to Buffy in that way.
 
Slayer said:
Why did the First-in-Caleb's form say to Buffy : "None of those girls will ever know true power unless you're dead"?

I mean if the First was smart enough to sense and seize on the disruption in the slayer-line, it would obviously know who the slayer is.

And that is just one of the many times the First referred to Buffy in that way.
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Yeah, we actually already mentioned this as being the one bit of evidence that absolutely supports the "Buffy being the active slayer again" theory. Ironically The First was the one source of information that really clarified the issue in any way.
 
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