Slut-shaming

[OFAWB]

A friend/neighbor of mine just posted one of those e-cards on Facebook. It read:

"Dear girls,
Dressing immodestly is like rolling around in manure. Yes, you'll get attention, but mostly from pigs.
Sincerely,
Real men"

This kind of stuff really, REALLY bothers me, so I commented on her post:

"Dear "real" men,
Please stop policing women's bodies.
Sincerely,
A real woman (not a "girl")

She hasn't responded yet (probably because it's almost 4 AM and I'm an insomniac), but I'm kinda worried about what she's going to say the next time she sees me. She's a lovely person who is always kind to me; as a matter of fact, when I had the flu two weeks ago, she brought me some homemade soup! So I'm very conflicted on this, but I felt like I had to speak my mind.

Has anyone else seen this e-card floating around the interwebz? I find it to be so distasteful and misogynistic that I'm actually angry with my neighbor right now.

1. Who decides what is and isn't modest? In my neighborhood, married women are expected to cover their hair. In other communities, face veils are common. In yet other places, it's common to wear halter tops and mini skirts to religious services. With such arbitrary definitions of "modesty" and "immodesty", who's to say how another person should dress?
2. An adult male who lusts after "girls" is not deserving of the title "real man". I would call him a pervert and possibly a pedophile. Alternatively, this could simply be an example of calling women "girls", which is very inappropriate.
3. Contrary to what many men (including my own father) believe, women do not exist, dress, speak, or do for the sake of male enjoyment.
4. Why is a man a pig if he notices someone attractive? Also, pigs aren't any dirtier than other farm animals (though they are smarter), and they also don't roll in manure; they roll in mud. Big difference!
5. Women like to look at attractive people, too. There's way too much emphasis on the false notion that "women aren't visually stimulated".

Anyway, I just felt like ranting about this and I wanted to see if anyone else has seen this e-card online. I'm really pissed off about it now!

 

[Bluebird]

I've never seen that one, but slut-shaming is so ubiquitous it's hard to ignore. It's just pure misogyny as woman are way more sexualised than men are. It is utterly unfair and wrong. I think if I'd been born in the wrong country I would have been stoned to death for rebellion long ago.

I wouldn't worry about what your friend thinks, you felt strongly about something and spoke your mind! I've been blocked by people on Facebook before for arguing against people's ignorant and hurtful opinions.

 

[Robb Stark]

I see your dilemma. Just try to remember that there's nothing wrong with disagreeing with your friend from time to time. Everyone's opinions differ every now and again.

I find the concept of slut-shaming to be pretty ridiculous. The way I look at it is, who the hell am I to tell someone else what to do with their life? If a girl, or a guy, wants to hook up with as many people as possible, why is that an offense to me? Why is that my problem? It's not, and it's none of my business. There are limits when the law gets involved of course, but the vast majority of the time, it's not my or anyone else's place to tell other people how to live. Slut-shaming come from a place of pure misogyny.

The ones that drives me crazy is the utterly ridiculous notion that dressing provocatively is somehow responsible for rape. That gets bantered around all the time, despite the fact (not opinion. Statistical fact) that the vast majority of rapists can't even remember what their victim looked like after the fact. Rape is purely about power, not sexual enjoyment. And even if it wasn't, so what? People should just not dress provocatively out of fear of some psycho? No. That's crazy talk. A crime is a crime.

2. An adult male who lusts after "girls" is not deserving of the title "real man". I would call him a pervert and possibly a pedophile. Alternatively, this could simply be an example of calling women "girls", which is very inappropriate.

This is the one area of your post I don't like, and find more than a little provocative. For starters, the terms "girl" and "boy" get thrown around in a non-offensive context, much more often than not. When I say "I hope there are lots of girls at this party", it has nothing to do with misogyny, just as when the girl in my English class says she likes talking to boys at parties. That's just a form of speaking, and I don't know of anyone who means it disrespectfully.

I'm 23, and the only girlfriend I've had was a teenager. There was nothing untoward or sinister about it. I cared, and still do care, deeply for her. But I said to my friends "I've been seeing this girl", not "I've been seeing this woman". Why? Because that's just how people around my age talk. And the fact that she's a teenager does not make me a pervert or a pedophile.

 

[Bluebird]

I'm 23, and the only girlfriend I've had was a teenager. There was nothing untoward or sinister about it. I cared, and still do care, deeply for her. But I said to my friends "I've been seeing this girl", not "I've been seeing this woman". Why? Because that's just how people around my age talk. And the fact that she's a teenager does not make me a pervert or a pedophile.

Yeah, saying 'girls' when you mean adult women is just a colloquialism in the English-speaking world, I don't think there's anything particular sinister about it. I also went out with a teenager while I was 6 years older - although no one blinked an eye since I'm a woman/girl/female thing. Society sees it very differently when it's an older male and a younger female.

 

[OFAWB]

To be clear, I'm not bothered by women being referred to as "girls" per se. I'm bothered by it when the people doing so refer to women as "girls", but men as "men", in the same context. That's what I see in this e-card ("Dear girls" vs. "Real men").

If someone said to me, "You're a very interesting/smart/obnoxious/pretty/rude/whatever girl," I would not be offended at all by the term usage. But if someone said, "This girl I know is dating a smart man," it would bother me. I feel like women get infantilized while men are viewed as adults. It's the inconsistency that jumps out at me.

I myself have referred to adult men and women as "boys" and "girls" if they were youthful people. I don't think anyone who dates a teenager is a pedophile or a pervert, and I'm sorry for not expressing my viewpoint clearly enough. What I'm saying is that if a man is going to refer to himself as a MAN, but he refers to women as GIRLS, it really rubs me the wrong way. Maybe I'm too sensitive, but where I come from, women are often referred to as "ladies" or "girls" while men half their age are called "men". And it drives me crazy!

Again, though: I don't think anyone here is a pervert. I just get icked out when I see the man/girl dichotomy. My apologies again.

 

[Bluebird]

Again, though: I don't think anyone here is a pervert. I just get icked out when I see the man/girl dichotomy. My apologies again.

It's cool, I didn't think that's what you were implying. 🙂 I understand where you're coming from, though. There's a lot of discrepancy in how gender terms are used. One that stands out to me a lot are phrases like 'you're such a girl' used in an obviously negative way. It's the same as when people say 'that's gay' when they mean bad/crap etc. That use of language really rubs me up the wrong way.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

But if someone said, "This girl I know is dating a smart man," it would bother me. I feel like women get infantilized while men are viewed as adults. It's the inconsistency that jumps out at me.

That, for me, is just overly sensitive. There's nothing wrong with that sentence really, even how you've added the word 'smart' before man, you've skewed the sentence to make it seem like the girl is being refereed to as unintelligent, young and ditzy vs a smart older man, the sentence "this girl I know is dating a man" doesn't imply the same thing.

I dont think someone would say that sentence, maybe this is a regional thing, but that sentence it way more likely to be "this girl I know is dating a smart guy".

I also think the word 'girls' is more general then boys, boys does refer to younger boys, but I've heard women in their 30's saying they are "going out with the girls", or they're having a "girls weekend/holiday" and it's a perfectly fine sentence, while the male version of that is more likely to be something like "going out with the guys", "guys holiday". But if guys in their 30's said they were going on a "Boys night" (Or for the really douchy Bois night), they would be thought of as stupid and immature - way more then girl in their 30's saying they were going on a girls night.

Slut Shaming is gross, I get the message of the e-card, a lot of young girls dress a certain way to get attention, yet their look at 27 will be completely different to how they were at 18, so there's an idea that they've matured past their look as they've realized it isn't a good look.

If I saw a girl out in a club, orange as an oompa loompa, slathered in make-up wearing a skirt that the day before was a scarf and a top that is literally just a bra, I'd totally roll my eyes. But I'd do the exact same thing if I saw a guy whos orange, or if he takes off his top in a club, it's the exact same behavior and they're both as bad as each other.

The wording of the card doesn't bother me, but the card shouldn't be around at all, slut shaming basically started like this but has gotten so much worse over recent years those facebook sites like "embarrassing night club photos" - It should be noted they show a lot of stupid guys dressed stupid/doing stupid drunk things also - started a very nasty trend of sharing photos of real people doing things.

There has been two big ones over here recently of a girl photographed doing stuff at a music festival that went viral on twitter and another of a girl involved in a threesome with two sports people, in the second one no pictures circulated but pictures of messages sent on facebook by the girl to her friends detailing what happened went around.

When something like that happens the girl usually gets way more attention then the guy, which is wrong (they're both as gross as each other), but the people saying it were pretty much 50/50 and in my opinion the girls saying stuff were way harsher then the guys (from what I read on twitter for both the examples above).


There's also a lot of blame on men in your initial post, yet the person that posted the picture is a girl, and you dont know if a girl or guy made the original.

I've seen more slut shaming from girls then I have guys.

 

[The Bronze]

Lots of those internet cards / catchprases annoy me. Not to the point of actually commenting on them when people share them but I do roll my eyes a lot. This particular one is doubly offensive actually. As you've pointed out the slut shaming and judging how people dress is the first point. The second point for me is the phrase "real men". Never fails to irritate me. "Real men should (insert personal opinion that no one cares about here)". There's no such thing as a "real man". Half the population don't have to think and act identically to have their gender verified.

 

[OFAWB]

Thanks for being understanding, people. I probably AM sensitive about this issue because of my experiences. You've given me a lot to think about. Thank you for letting me talk about this here.

 

[white avenger]

I'm from the South, obviously, and when I was growing up, it was quite common to hear both men and women referred to as "girls" and "boys," especially by someone older than the person being referred to. It was almost always done affectionately, with no intention to demean or insult anyone. Anyone who found it offensive was always free to politely suggest that they had a given name, which they preferred to be called, and their wishes would be honored.

As for clothing and manner of dress, propriety should be determined by the rules and laws of the society in which you live and your activity at the time. A thong bikini might be fine at the beach, but you obviously wouldn't wear it to church or a formal dinner. Those considerations aside, what an individual finds inappropriate or offensive in the way that another person dresses is quite easily solved. Just mind your own business and find something or someONE more appropriate (in your opinion) to look at.

 

[kittenpoker]

I've never seen that one, but slut-shaming is so ubiquitous it's hard to ignore. It's just pure misogyny as woman are way more sexualised than men are. It is utterly unfair and wrong. I think if I'd been born in the wrong country I would have been stoned to death for rebellion long ago.

I wouldn't worry about what your friend thinks, you felt strongly about something and spoke your mind! I've been blocked by people on Facebook before for arguing against people's ignorant and hurtful opinions.

I completely agree and echo everything you said here, bluebird! Also love your use of the word "ubiquitous".



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[brinkster130]

I've seen tons of those silly e-cards that are incredibly hostile and insulting....I personally don't follow or remain FB friends with people who post that type of crap. There is enough stupid in the world without seeing it splashed all over social media sites.

 

[OFAWB]

I'm considering doing that, actually. She's always telling me that I post too much on Facebook. Apparently, when I asked my friends what they thought about me bleaching vs. henna-ing my hair, she thought it was "inappropriate". But the e-card she posted was "funny but true", in her own words. I don't know. Still waiting for her to say something to me about it...

 

[brinkster130]

I'm considering doing that, actually. She's always telling me that I post too much on Facebook. Apparently, when I asked my friends what they thought about me bleaching vs. henna-ing my hair, she thought it was "inappropriate". But the e-card she posted was "funny but true", in her own words. I don't know. Still waiting for her to say something to me about it...

Well, it is Facebook so you should be able hide her so that you don't have to see her posts. That may help since it sounds like its someone you see a good bit in real life. 🙂

 

[Tome]

A friend/neighbor of mine just posted one of those e-cards on Facebook. It read:

"Dear girls,
Dressing immodestly is like rolling around in manure. Yes, you'll get attention, but mostly from pigs.
Sincerely,
Real men"

This kind of stuff really, REALLY bothers me, so I commented on her post:

"Dear "real" men,
Please stop policing women's bodies.
Sincerely,
A real woman (not a "girl")

She hasn't responded yet (probably because it's almost 4 AM and I'm an insomniac), but I'm kinda worried about what she's going to say the next time she sees me. She's a lovely person who is always kind to me; as a matter of fact, when I had the flu two weeks ago, she brought me some homemade soup! So I'm very conflicted on this, but I felt like I had to speak my mind.

Has anyone else seen this e-card floating around the interwebz? I find it to be so distasteful and misogynistic that I'm actually angry with my neighbor right now.

1. Who decides what is and isn't modest? In my neighborhood, married women are expected to cover their hair. In other communities, face veils are common. In yet other places, it's common to wear halter tops and mini skirts to religious services. With such arbitrary definitions of "modesty" and "immodesty", who's to say how another person should dress?
2. An adult male who lusts after "girls" is not deserving of the title "real man". I would call him a pervert and possibly a pedophile. Alternatively, this could simply be an example of calling women "girls", which is very inappropriate.
3. Contrary to what many men (including my own father) believe, women do not exist, dress, speak, or do for the sake of male enjoyment.
4. Why is a man a pig if he notices someone attractive? Also, pigs aren't any dirtier than other farm animals (though they are smarter), and they also don't roll in manure; they roll in mud. Big difference!
5. Women like to look at attractive people, too. There's way too much emphasis on the false notion that "women aren't visually stimulated".

Anyway, I just felt like ranting about this and I wanted to see if anyone else has seen this e-card online. I'm really pissed off about it now!

Hahaha! Nice response. And you shouldn't feel conflicted! Speaking up against stupidity is always very much needed. 😛

And nah, I haven't seen that specific e-card but I've seen worse ones. We're a long way from completely changing mentalities, but by saying something, like you did there; you WILL make a couple guys/girls realize the idiocy of that message, and JUST THAT is better than nothing.

 

[NY State of Mind]

Whats funny is that girls do most of the "slut shaming". I hate it myself cause theyre trying to ruin what I look at 😉 ....like c'mon I'm not going in the book stores and shaming the women buying 50 shades of grey. See what I did there? I hope so cause I lost my way halfway through

 

[kittenpoker]

Yeah but it stems from our patriarchal society. Of course women buy into it. That's what makes it all the worse. It's so embedded in our society.


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[Black Eye Guy]

Whats funny is that girls do most of the "slut shaming".

Completely agree, most of the shaming I've seen comes from women. Buzzfeed had an interesting article the last couple of days about the letters Sinéad O'Connor was sending to Miley Cyrus, and how they were basically slut-shaming - would you guys agree with that?
Just to be clear I dont mean men are innocent of it, just mean in my personal experience, women are worse for it. And I think this issue gets called misogynistic, when it isn't a Men vs Women thing - though I could be wrong in thinking that word is wrong, is something misogynistic if the subject is aimed at more women then men, even if it's done by women? (For example, both Bieber and Cyrus dress (stupid) with not a lot of clothes, but Cyrus gets more backlash for her VMA performance, even if it's more from women is it still misogynistic, as the person of interest tends to be more females then males?)

I hate it myself cause theyre trying to ruin what I look at 😉 ....like c'mon I'm not going in the book stores and shaming the women buying 50 shades of grey. See what I did there? I hope so cause I lost my way halfway through

And thats another thing, the quote is as offensive to guys, it says that if you like looking at a girl dressed like that, your not a real man. If your a young guy you are going to find scantly clad women nice to look at on impulse, the quote shames boys too (though it is aimed at girls, I'm not denying that).

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Yeah, slut-shaming is awful.

Have you heard of SlutWalk? It's a annual march that seeks to raise awareness to rape culture and slut-shaming.

Check out their site here: http://www.slutwalktoronto.com/

 

[OFAWB]

I've heard of it, but I've never attended.

Maybe women slut-shame so that they can feel holier-than-thou, like they're the "good girls" who deserve "real men".