Episode Discussion So about that whole…”Wesley X Cordy” thing…

[Taake]

I honestly thought it was all a joke about how old Charisma looked at this point (old as in most definitely NOT a teenager but a woman in her 30s or near it), because she doesn’t look even close to 18 (though she looks great), and it was them starting to ease her onto Angel where she would definitely be ”aged” up , to fit in with the tone of the show. It is hard, once Cordy is in LA, to remember that she and the Scoobs are the same age.

People now are much more up in arms about ages differences. Not saying that is wrong. I just think that back then it was just a joke and people didn’t think more of it than ”haha funny awkward man made an inappropriate”

 

[Plasma]

People now are much more up in arms about ages differences. Not saying that is wrong. I just think that back then it was just a joke and people didn’t think more of it than ”haha funny awkward man made an inappropriate”

I guess in all fairness it really didn’t bother me a ton when I watched. Just noticed it and moved on, but it’s one of those things where I was just thinking about it recently was like “huh…yeah that was a little odd”.

 

[thetopher]

To be fair even at the time Faith uses the term 'first word jail, second word bait', the show did call it out as inappropriate lusting on Wesley's part. But, then again, considering the source....


I might be less okay with it if Cordelia seemed in any way uncomfortable or oblivious to Wesley's interest, but she's heavily flirting right back.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Yeah, Cordie also got herself invited to a college party when she was 16, and brought Cry-Buffy along. She was also the last of the group to lose her virginity. I'm inclined to believe that Cordie is the manipulator, not the manipulated. Well, in highschool, Angel is a different story.

 

[NotASlayer]

I might be less okay with it if Cordelia seemed in any way uncomfortable or oblivious to Wesley's interest, but she's heavily flirting right back.

She may have even started it!

 

[Taake]

I guess in all fairness it really didn’t bother me a ton when I watched. Just noticed it and moved on, but it’s one of those things where I was just thinking about it recently was like “huh…yeah that was a little odd”.

I remember reacting too it back when I watched, but mostly because it felt like they had started dressing Cordelia so maturely. She did look more like a teacher than a student at that point, so I thought it was fun they poked fun at that themselves.

However, when they actually danced in the prom episode I remember thinking that was a bit odd. Well, Wesley being at prom at all is honestly odd, lol

 

[BuffyElevated]

Wesley's cover was never stated on screen. I mean, Faith's cover was also never stated on screen, either. And we all just kind of take it for granted that Oz can just repeat a year of high school for no particular reason. The masquerade wasn’t a particular concern during Season 3, if everyone doesn’t know what’s going on, then they know something is going on. But, I would probably guess that Wes has some vaguely defined administrative job, and Faith attends night school. If it was season 2.

Oz had to repeat a year of high school because he didn't show up for his finals. In the US, teachers usually place more weight on things like final exams so they count for a higher percentage of your overall grade. So if Oz didn't go, he didn't pass his senior year and that's why he had to repeat the grade.

But anyway, I did always think it was so weird that you had people like Wesley, Faith, Gwendolyn Post, and others just roaming around the high school. However when I was growing up, people were allowed to visit my high school all the time until school shootings became such a prevalent issue, so I just kinda wrote it off as the school viewing them as visitors and not really caring that much.

I always viewed Wesley's and Cordelia's ages as similar to Angel's and Buffy's. I thought Wesley was probably a man in his mid to late 20's, so his attraction to Cordelia wasn't THAT gross, considering she did look so much older than the other girls on the show. I was glad that the writers didn't have him act on his attraction until after she was 18, though. And even though they had ZERO chemistry when they tried to kiss, I always hoped when he showed up on "Angel", they'd eventually try to rekindle their romance. After all, it was shown that Wesley's romantic skills had definitely improved by the time he moved to L.A.

 

[NotASlayer]

Admittedly, the visitors did spend most of their time in the library, where it seems almost no-one else ever went. At least, no-one ever poked around enough to ask awkward questions. Like "Why do you have a tranquilliser gun under the counter and a cupboard full of sharp pointy objects?" Never mind "Why is there a werewolf in here?"

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Look, I know Oz had a series of classes he needed to retake, that would be the stated reason for why he was on Senior Year 2. But, he would really have to drop the ball to fail his second semester of senior year of high school. Especially since he's as smart as Willow, if you go by What's My Line. I mean, the subtext is, Oz really likes hanging out with Willow and playing with his band, so he arranged to fail, but still, those are some accepting parents.

My point is, it's a reason, but it's not a very good one. It's clearly, Oz was wanted for season 3, we contrived an excuse.

 

[NoShip]

Joss loves inappropriate age and/or power dynamic pairings. How is this news to anyone?
Buffy and Angel
Xander and Anya
Cordelia and Wesley
Connor and Cordelia/Jasmine
Buffy/Cordy and the fraternity cult guys
Buffy and teacher's assistant Riley
Harmony and Spike
Xander and the mantis teacher (nobody had a problem with this until it became clear she intended to decapitate him)
Buffy and her boss Robin

Buffy and Spike.

 

[CardboardGhost]

I don't like it but more than anything I don't like how the show pretends it's calling out this behavior while constantly showing high schoolers in romantic situations with older partners as normal and justified. Characters only seem to comment on teenage girls hanging out with older men when something goes wrong (in season two when Joyce finds out Buffy and Angel had sex and tells Buffy that he's too old for her, Cordy and Buffy at the frat party in "Reptile Boy") or when it's supposed to be a joke (Faith and Xander both say "jailbait" in response to the Wesley/Cordy situation at different times). It doesn't usually happen in a way that's being clearly called out.

The writers keep drawing attention to Wesley and Cordy's age gap but ultimately decide it's fine and doesn't matter and it's supposed to be funny that he thinks it's such a big deal. It's a joke more than anything. People only ever comment on Angel being older than Buffy when something bad happens, as if it suddenly matters then but didn't matter before. I don't remember anyone in-universe ever commenting on the substitute teacher/mantis because of her seducing and assaulting students, just the actual murder. I don't see the point in bringing it up in Wesley's situation if it doesn't matter when other people do the same or worse without the same kind of emphasis.

As for my actual opinions on the two of them together, I would say Wesley is a creep, but since she's over 18, and because it's basically limited to some flirting, a slowdance, and a brief makeout session, he's way less of a creep than he would be if it went further than that or if it happened earlier. I don't think he's a predator, but I do think he's a loser. And he's a loser that the show holds to a higher standard than other characters, so I don't feel like I have a reason to even care.

 

[Kendar]

Xander and the mantis teacher (nobody had a problem with this until it became clear she intended to decapitate him)

This one isn't quite as bad as some of the others. Remember, it takes place over a fairly short time.

Day/Night 1: Bio teacher is killed.
Day/night 2: Sub (French) shows up. Boys are obviously infatuated. Buffy sees vampire flee French.
Day/night 3: Buffy sees French turn head 180 degrees. Goes to convince Giles French is a monster. After this, French invites Xander to her home.

That's the first point at when she actually engages in what would be considered inappropriate behavior. And Buffy is already talking to Giles about her being a monster. I'm not sure there's time to question why she's inviting boys to her home since by the time that happens she's already assumed to be a monster.


So I don't think it's "Nobody had a problem with this" so much as "by the time it's an issue they are already assuming she's bad news".

 

[SavvyScoobie]

This still doesn't make Angel a 'literal pedophile' since pedophilia is a sexual attraction to prepubescent children. Buffy has gone through puberty and is clearly a young woman.
This argument is just lazy and inaccurate. Anyone can say what Angel did was creepy, can say it was gross, can say it was sketchy as hell, or can say it was incredibly romantic because those are all opinions based on feeling.

Literal pedophilia is not something that appears in this show, or indeed the vast majority of shows.

Disagree, this is exactly why I haven't watched Angel yet. I don't wanna watch a story through the eyes of a pedo.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Seriously? Okay, well, Angel is about early adulthood, most of Angel's love interests are young professional women or college students at the youngest. It's really just Batman.

 

[silvermoon]

I think angel according to what I read because I could not remember was turned when he was 26. So yeah he was macking on a high school student.

 

[NotASlayer]

I think angel according to what I read because I could not remember was turned when he was 26. So yeah he was macking on a high school student.

17 originally, but David got older, and it was hard to pass him off as being turned at 17 any longer. Which happens.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

That makes sense. Season 1 Catholic Schoolgirl Darla is definitely supposed to be younger than the age of the woman the master turned in the early days of the Virginia colony.

 

[NotASlayer]

@hoponlilmama It's the big problem with having "ageless" vampires in live action, compared to animation or novel; at some point it is going to be very obvious they aren't ageless. Especially given that commonly the vampires are supposed to be teenagers, so that they can go to schools and be creepy.

 

[SavvyScoobie]

This still doesn't make Angel a 'literal pedophile' since pedophilia is a sexual attraction to prepubescent children. Buffy has gone through puberty and is clearly a young woman.

Not related to Bangel, but this argument can get a little problematic. Like if we apply this to Epistein, Diddy, and other pdfs...well okay now you're 'exempt', because they technically already underwent puberty! I'd rather you use an argument related to the 'supernatural' parts of their relationship.

 

[thetopher]

Not related to Bangel, but this argument can get a little problematic. Like if we apply this to Epistein, Diddy, and other pdfs...well okay now you're 'exempt', because they technically already underwent puberty! I'd rather you use an argument related to the 'supernatural' parts of their relationship.

I think of Diddy as a sexual predator, I don't know if he abused children, just numerous young men and women where there was a serious power imbalance, blackmail, lots of physical abuse, etc.
Epstein...well, the horrors regarding him are too numerous to name but it includes child trafficking and grooming on a global scale, not just the child stuff.

But if these real world examples were about one guy dating one girl in unique circumstances then it wouldn't be international news, it would be...a pathetic internet drama; like some YouTuber started dating somebody else in the community when they were 17 and now they're cancelled or whatever.
I find that the latest online generation throws the 'pdf' term around all too frequently, trying to blur the lines between genuine traumatic/abusive horrors and relationships that perhaps have problematic/creepy aspects or power imbalances or maybe grooming behavior. There needs to be distinctions drawn even while we can condemn both.

There is a nuanced conversation to be engaged with when it comes to many fictional relationships, not just Buffyverse ones, but many a Bangel hater just won't engage in that way. And hey, that's fine, I'm not that kind of shipper and I don't get super invested in fictional relationships one way or another...but I do like intellectual honesty and consistency and since nobody really comes up with a compelling argument as to why Angel- the literal pedo- happily engages in many romances with adult women the majority of the time then I dismiss the character assassination attacks as rather thin and inconsistent.