So, Andrew kills Jonathan...

[Skytteflickan88]

Poor Andrew, the only one who actually gets given a hard time for being a murderer. I think she just doesn't like him

Willow was sent to England to get over her murder-ness-magic-thing. While Spike was soulless Buffy beat him up repeatedly or tried to stake him (depended on his chippyness), while Spike was dangerous but repentful in Season 7 he got tied up until cleared "innocent" and Anya was almost killed by Buffy. So it's unfair to say that Buffy was only giving Andrew a hard time (although after her almost dying several times, because of the trio, I don't think she likes any of them...)

He wanted to do what he told him to, just like he did when Warren was still alive. I'm not saying what he did was right. But I still don't hate him for that and I think Buffy should've seen how hard this was for him and how he regretted it.

I think she did, but in Season 7, she had to be the leader and show who was the boss. No time to play nice. She didn't trust Andrew and she shouldn't have. I don't think she walked around hating him tough.

Are you talking about Andrew through all of that?

Anyway, Spike tried to rape Buffy herself, and still got treated better that Andrew. He was in his right mind (well, if you can consider spike to even have a "right mind" okay, my impressive spike hatred isn't the point here....is it?)

Wait a sec...how did he repent? remind me.

Andrew had a soul during the rape attempt and later on continued being "evil". Spike got a soul after his.

^ Spike felt the need to repent as soon as he fell in love with Buffy. Not for the attempted rape, obviously, as that hadn't happened yet. But for all the other horrible things he's done.
Sure, it was because he was in love with her and wanted to impress her, but IMO, yes it still counts. His motivation was selfish, but he helped others, bottom line. His actions were generous and driven by love, which I find to be kind of beautiful, actually.

It's not repenting for your passed crimes (and lets remember the evil eggs in As You Were that were after he tried to be nice) if you act nice to get into someone pants. He was nice to please Buffy (and when Buffy was dead, her memory) not because of anything else. He was still evil, just in love.

If he could have his cake and eat it too (having Buffy like him while he was killing for fun) he would. But I'm happy he wanted to do good to impress Buffy. Atleast the good deeds were done, for whatever reason.

Now, here's the thing. I'm really surprised everyone is focusing on her treatment of Andrew in contrast to her treatment of Spike when a better comparison could be made. No one has mentioned Anya. Like Andrew, Anya has killed without the excuse of "not having a soul" or being controlled by The First. While we never get an exact figure, we do know she has probably killed many, MANY more people than Andrew and cursed many more beyond that. And she's doing it again at the start of season seven. Now, of course in season 7, she gets the convenient option of taking her murders back. Andrew doesn't get that option, but it's pretty clear he would have taken it back if he could have. So does that really make Anya any better than him? Realistically, she's probably done many, many more bad deeds than Andrew and she is welcomed into the Slayer's inner circle very easily and no one really even suggests holding her accountable for what she's done until she starts doing it again at the beginning of season 7.

I love you. Okay, your opinion on how easily Anya gets accepted. She tried to get Willow killed in Season 3 and then Xander went on a date with her. Weird. I think it's because she looks so harmless. The smart just thing to do would have been to kill her in Season 3, since she was trying to get her powers back so she could keep on hurting people. Demon or human, in both cases she wanted to cause pain. I think the Scoobies forgot about that and then it didn't matter because she turned out to be a really sweet person who actually wanted to help people and not only because of her love for Xander. Or maybe it was just Xander at first and then in after he dumped her she had the chance to realize that people could deserve help.

Still, weird that she got accepted so easily after trying to get Willow killed. I guess she must be good in bed 😉

I don't know about what should be done about Anya, seemed cheap she got off completely, she killed more people than Angelus/Spike put together, with a soul. The only thing hat changed back and forth was her physical form (demon/human)

Well we don't know that. Maybe Anya did lose her soul, conscious, whatever, when she became a demon? Even if just a little bit?


And finally:

I don't think Buffy calling Andrew a murderer was wrong. He's a foolish murderer who probably regrets what he's done and will from now on be good, not because he wants to hang with the slayer-gang, but because he's nice now (although if he joins up with Twilight because he likes Twilight's costume better than Buffy's gear, I won't be surprised). However, since I don't recall all the Buffy/Andrew moments, if can't say if Buffy was giving him a too hard time or not. From what I remember, she thought he was up to no good and deserved no respect, and treated him with distaste, but no more than a former threat and annoyance deserves.

I have no idea how to really compare Spike's situation to Andrew's, because they're different people and different means of persuasion was used. But I do think Andrew deserved more of a hard time. Spike was heartbroken and crazy and his horrible memory his mom was used while Andrew was just screwed up, but in a sane way, you know? I'm sure that I'm not beeing fair, since I carried a seething hatred for Andrew for months after the Katrina's thing. The hatred is still not gone, even tough he did look shocked when she accused them of rape and I think that he might be good now. Hopefully.

 

[fly on the wall]

I understand shades of grey, but I don't see how it applies in terms of Anya. Demons aren't depicted as being "just evil" on Buffy/Angel, but it doesn't follow that this absolves Anya of her crimes. Angel and Angelus are really two completely different guys, which is why Angel isn't held as accountable for his actions as Anya (I take that back, he's held more accountable but shouldn't necessarily be). The flaw in your logic about demon Anya vs. human Anya is that essentially there is no difference between them other than the powers. We see this as Anya is still bloodthirsty and wants back to the alternate dimension she created when she first becomes human in season three. We again see this when she becomes a demon again in season seven as she still possesses the qualities she gained while she was a human. In other words, Anya voluntarily committed these acts. She may not deserve to die for it, but she certainly should be held to the same rules as Andrew. After all, Angel seeks atonement and he's (in my opinion, at least) less guilty of Angelus's crimes than Anya is for her own.

The whole concept of a vengeance demon is a confusing one, so I'll give you my take on it.
I believe that vengeance demons have souls, have the personality of the human they were before, and have the same characteristics of that person....the difference between a person as a vengeance demon and a person as a person is, obviously, vengeance. Vengeance is coursing through them, along with the anger and passion and undeniable desire to make someone else "get theirs." What happens to Willow S6 when she goes all evil is a very good representation of what vengeance demons are, I believe. Willow was still a human, she still had a soul. But her sense of right and wrong, her conscience, was muted by the intense vengeance she felt. She could murder, easily, with no guilt while she was full of vengeance. She could beat up her best friends, she could put their lives at risk. All because of vengeance, and manifestations of vengeance.

I take a similar approach when it comes to Anya. In S3, when she loses her powers, what are they supposed to do? She's not their friend yet, so they're not going to send her to some commune in England where she can go through vengeance demon rehab (much as they did for Willow). She was a human, no longer a threat, so they can't slay her. All they could pretty much do, and all I'd expect them to do, was be angry at her. Once she was their friend, the demony choices she'd made were forgiven...just like Spike's evil-doings were forgiven, and Willow's, and Faith's, etc etc...I DON'T see Anya's career as being a choice beyond that first choice 1,000 years earlier. Once she chose to become a vengeance demon, the vengeance she'd felt towards Olaf was reflected upon every man she hurt. The vengeance controlled her.

In S7, she made that choice again. I don't feel she could truly do her duties as a vengeance demon (with the fervor she had before) because what she felt towards Xander wasn't vengeance. It was pain, and humiliation, and hurt. As she said herself, she didn't want revenge. She wanted solace, and she couldn't find it in being a demon again. But anyways, she'd made her choice, and she was killing people, and so Buffy was going to kill her. Which is obviously holding Anya responsible for her choice, moreso than they held Andrew, actually. If they really wanted to hold Jonathan's murder against Andrew, surely they would have turned him into the police.

Oh, and I agree with you 100% about Angel. I'm just saying, they *could have* held him in contempt for what Angelus had done. Or, they could have rejected him solely because he was a vampire, soul or no soul. But they didn't.

Anyways, I didn't mean to make this post so long! Hopefully I made my point clear.

 

[Revolver]

Well, I don't quite interpret it the same way. To me, Anya becoming a demon is more like Cordelia becoming a demon. It was a choice she made to change, so it was still her and she's still responsible for her actions afterward. But I think we both have a different take on it, and there's not much use in going back and forth about it any longer so I'll agree to disagree. It's true though that they didn't really ever make it clear as to what exactly it means for a human to become a demon. In fact, I think their views on what it meant to be a demon kind of changed a lot depending on what episode you were watching.

 

[J. Ruby]

Okay, I spent about an hour thinking about this and reading through some episode transcripts (no time to sit down and watch seven or eight episodes), and I've come to the conclusion that Buffy and the Scoobies didn't really give Andrew that hard of a time in regards to killing Jonathan, with the exception of keeping him tied up (and they certainly kept Spike tied up plenty, even after being ensouled). The most grief Buffy gave Andrew about murdering Jonathan was during "Storytellers," when she was trying to make him cry in order to deactivate the seal. It was only at this point that Andrew admitted he knew Warren wasn't really Warren and killed Jonathan of his own volition, effectively admitting that he is a cold-blooded killer (with a soul, no less). And yet even after such an admission, he was allowed to continue to be an active part of the team. I don't feel that this treatment is any less fair (maybe even more so) than treatment given to Spike, Anya, Willow, Angel, or Faith after their traverses to the dark side.

 

[fly on the wall]

The most grief Buffy gave Andrew about murdering Jonathan was during "Storytellers," when she was trying to make him cry in order to deactivate the seal.

And, of course, she wasn't doing that to give him grief or make him feel bad...she just needed him to cry in order to deactivate the seal, as you said. 🙂

 

[Revolver]

I have a theory that Andrew is eventually going to get vamped, find a time machine and join Harmony's gang as a minion.