So Angel Can't Be a Human Ever Again?
- Thread starter mikey3319
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Hit The Books
Models For The Programme
Interesting question. Just as interesting is the idea that you can sign away a prophecy, as presented in said episode. It brings in a whole paradox and undermines the meaning of the word: a foretelling of the future. If whoever made it really could see the future then they would surely have encountered this occurrence which would thus render the prophecy a load of rubbish in the first place.
Then of course there is the question as to which vampire with a soul it refers to which would get around the paradox - if it never referred to Angel in the first place then it doesn't matter; it is still a foretelling of the future (just not Angel's).
In other words, for there to be a prophecy brought into the equation in the first place: either signing it away is futile and does not affect it, or it was never intended for Angel in the first place.
Alternatively, I may just be over thinking the whole thing 🙂.
In any event if Angel really wanted I'm sure he could find another Morah demon and mix blood (something which always made the Shanshu Prophecy seem quite insignificant to me) - thus making him human once again. But knowing Angel's character he probably wouldn't take that option as he wouldn't feel like he'd earnt it. He does place great importance in the idea of becoming human after all.
Then of course there is the question as to which vampire with a soul it refers to which would get around the paradox - if it never referred to Angel in the first place then it doesn't matter; it is still a foretelling of the future (just not Angel's).
In other words, for there to be a prophecy brought into the equation in the first place: either signing it away is futile and does not affect it, or it was never intended for Angel in the first place.
Alternatively, I may just be over thinking the whole thing 🙂.
In any event if Angel really wanted I'm sure he could find another Morah demon and mix blood (something which always made the Shanshu Prophecy seem quite insignificant to me) - thus making him human once again. But knowing Angel's character he probably wouldn't take that option as he wouldn't feel like he'd earnt it. He does place great importance in the idea of becoming human after all.
N
NecroAngel
Good post.
Angel's vision
Silence! I Keel you!
white avenger
white avenger
The whole Angel/Shanshu/Redemption/Mortality thing never made any sense to me anyway.Angel, as was pointed out, had mortality and gave it back. His reason was that he could no longer be an effective warrior for the Light (oh, and by the way, he can't "protect" Buffy anymore, and he might even get her killed by HER trying to protect HIM) which is a crock, because we have seen plenty of completely normal humans who were quite effective demon fighters, beginning with Giles and Xander, then Riley, even after his chip/drug enhancement was removed. The other members of Angel's own team were human, and they did quite well in the vamp dusting department, even Fred. Wes compensated for his lack of physical strength by using a variety of weapons, up to and including firearms. Gunn even had his own crew of demon fighters (who, toward the end were also armed with modern weapons). Angel could have been almost as effective a demon fighter as a human as he was as a vampire. The real reason for his refusingrtality might be something else entirely.
In Los Angeles, as a vampire demon fighter, Angel had no equal. He was the champion, the Black Knight, helping the helpless. Without his vampire powers, he would be, at best, just one of several fighters. If he remained the best, it would not be by nearly the margin that he was as a vampire. Quite likely, there was an ego issue involved that he was either not conscious of or was unwilling to own up to. Despite the reasons that he gave, that might have also been a factor in his leaving Sunnydale in the first place. With Buffy there, he wasn't the alpha fighter. As Angelus, he relished the domination of his victims, avoiding real confrontations unless they were forced upon him. He was, in the most basic terms, a bully. He was afraid of and ran from Holtz, who was, granted, a skilled fighter, but still only a mortal. Angel, by his very reasons for refusing mortality in the first place, was basically no less a bully than Angelus was. They are, after all, when all is said and done, the same person.
Then the Shanshu Prophecy is introduced into the storyline, and we are supposed to believe that this is going to be Angel's Holy Grail, the reward he will receive for his years of good deeds ("It's really the redemption," he would say, "The mortality is just icing on the cake."). We are supposed to believe that suddenly Angel is not only willing to take, but is actively seeking, his mortality, including his loss of power AND his mortality. Yeah, right.
I honestly believe that Spike, on the other hand, only wants the Shanshu because Angel wants it. He doesn't strike me as the type who would give up his immortality willingly, nor do I believe he would, if he received it, consider it a reward. As much as he loves Buffy, I can't see him actually wanting to become human just to be with her. (On the other hand, that just might have been a deciding factor in why he didn't go to Europe to find her when he became corporeal. Maybe he stayed in LA on the hopes of becoming the man she deserved, even to the point of seeking out his mortality the same way he sought out his soul. I'd never thought about that until just now. That might be something to explore in another thread). On the other hand, Spike hates Angel, and has been dominated by him for decades, and taking the Shanshu away from him would suit him just fine.
In Los Angeles, as a vampire demon fighter, Angel had no equal. He was the champion, the Black Knight, helping the helpless. Without his vampire powers, he would be, at best, just one of several fighters. If he remained the best, it would not be by nearly the margin that he was as a vampire. Quite likely, there was an ego issue involved that he was either not conscious of or was unwilling to own up to. Despite the reasons that he gave, that might have also been a factor in his leaving Sunnydale in the first place. With Buffy there, he wasn't the alpha fighter. As Angelus, he relished the domination of his victims, avoiding real confrontations unless they were forced upon him. He was, in the most basic terms, a bully. He was afraid of and ran from Holtz, who was, granted, a skilled fighter, but still only a mortal. Angel, by his very reasons for refusing mortality in the first place, was basically no less a bully than Angelus was. They are, after all, when all is said and done, the same person.
Then the Shanshu Prophecy is introduced into the storyline, and we are supposed to believe that this is going to be Angel's Holy Grail, the reward he will receive for his years of good deeds ("It's really the redemption," he would say, "The mortality is just icing on the cake."). We are supposed to believe that suddenly Angel is not only willing to take, but is actively seeking, his mortality, including his loss of power AND his mortality. Yeah, right.
I honestly believe that Spike, on the other hand, only wants the Shanshu because Angel wants it. He doesn't strike me as the type who would give up his immortality willingly, nor do I believe he would, if he received it, consider it a reward. As much as he loves Buffy, I can't see him actually wanting to become human just to be with her. (On the other hand, that just might have been a deciding factor in why he didn't go to Europe to find her when he became corporeal. Maybe he stayed in LA on the hopes of becoming the man she deserved, even to the point of seeking out his mortality the same way he sought out his soul. I'd never thought about that until just now. That might be something to explore in another thread). On the other hand, Spike hates Angel, and has been dominated by him for decades, and taking the Shanshu away from him would suit him just fine.
NecroAngel
Vampire
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I think sometimes, simply the creation of an episode hasn't been given enough thought. 'I will remember you' was a good episode in my opinion, but the whole Morah demon's blood making the Shansu prophesy insignificant thing was terrible, and simply bad writing. You could say Angel just wanted to earn his mortality instead of getting it easily like that, or something, but that's a cop-out and the only reason he didn't is because... how boring would it be if Angel became a 'regular' human so early on? It'd ruin the show. I really dislike the Morah demon idea. Why not keep some Morah blood lying around to give to people like Darla? Or just vampires that were annoying them?
What was he supposed to do to earn mortality, anyway? After he had earned it, there'd still be evil/demons in the world I'm guessing... so him being turned into a human then would be no different from in 'I will remember you,' as there'd still be a bunch of people to save, but since he'd be a human he'd be less capable.
His other excuse, thinking Buffy would die and he couldn't protect her and such wasn't very good either - I think Angel would usually disregard TPTB, be happy with Buffy, and try and save her when the time comes. They all have to die eventually, might as well enjoy the time they have. And yeah, as said previously, plenty of humans have been decent fighters.
What was he supposed to do to earn mortality, anyway? After he had earned it, there'd still be evil/demons in the world I'm guessing... so him being turned into a human then would be no different from in 'I will remember you,' as there'd still be a bunch of people to save, but since he'd be a human he'd be less capable.
His other excuse, thinking Buffy would die and he couldn't protect her and such wasn't very good either - I think Angel would usually disregard TPTB, be happy with Buffy, and try and save her when the time comes. They all have to die eventually, might as well enjoy the time they have. And yeah, as said previously, plenty of humans have been decent fighters.
white avenger
white avenger
Yeah, the whole Morah demon thing would've been better off never being done. It would have lent a lot more credence to what happened later. I always hoped for a follow up story where Buffy had her memory restored and kicked Angel's ass for doing it. They did that later with Connor in Angel Season 5, but I guess that was just a coincidence.
Clem Rocks
Scooby
Maybe by signing away the Shanshu, he fulfiiled it. Would a vampire give up the one thing in the world they wanted the most? Probably not, but a human would...
Black Eye Guy
Taking over the World!
The whole Morah demon things makes perfect sense, Angel being made human was to be a reward for this fighting the good fight, and makeing up for his past crimes.
Angel wouldn't want to take the easy way out, it was to be his reward.
Angel wouldn't want to take the easy way out, it was to be his reward.
ILLYRIAN
Druish Pervonian Wizard
I can't remember the details, if you get the demons blood in your system: are you reborn, are you reborn as is, are you reborn but bigger and stronger. When the Morah demon came back he was meant to be bigger and stronger, so why was Angel the same size and human ie. weaker. The demon came back a demon so why didn't the vampire ?
Clem Rocks
Scooby
If you think about it, Angel never signed his name on the Shanshu, he signed "Angel", his name is Liam
Blondie Bear
Zydrate Addict
That's the name his father gave him, true. But he's gone by Angel or Angelus for much longer than he went by Liam, and I'd think that long use would attach a name to you as firmly as being given it at birth would.
Spirit_Of_Fred
The Psycho
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yeah, but if the writers are ever looking for a way to get him out of it, as they often try to do things like that, thats actually a pretty smart way to do it.
Hit The Books
Models For The Programme
But, as Blondie said, the prophecy refers to the vampire with a soul. Vampires often talk about becoming one as if it is a new birth - which it is, in a sense: the birth of the demon within, complete with the symbolic act of forcing their way out of their graves (often). As well as this in the Buffyverse it's generally accepted that vampires start counting their age anew from this point.
The vampire was christened Angelus. The vampire with a soul was Angel. That's the name he went by and others used etc. so for all intents and purposes, signing it would - I imagine - constitute an agreement.
The vampire was christened Angelus. The vampire with a soul was Angel. That's the name he went by and others used etc. so for all intents and purposes, signing it would - I imagine - constitute an agreement.
nerd4hire
Certified Uncloneable
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Yeah, I get that. The vampire with a soul signed an agreement for the vampire with a soul.
How about this for a loophole then. Angel signed the agreement saying he relinguished any right to the prophecy, and in return he would be made a member of the Circle of Blackthorn, but there is no Circle of Blackthorn. Would this nullify the agreement?
How about this for a loophole then. Angel signed the agreement saying he relinguished any right to the prophecy, and in return he would be made a member of the Circle of Blackthorn, but there is no Circle of Blackthorn. Would this nullify the agreement?
Clem Rocks
Scooby
Seeing as Angel is still a member, surely now he is the last living(If you can call him living) member, he himself is the circle?
Clem Rocks
Scooby
Where were the Circle of the Black Thorn meetings held? If they were in the Wolfram and Hart, LA Branch building, the contract would either be destroyed or buried in the rubble by now.
And if Angel really wanted to screw the contract up, he could just make Spike a member, then the only two that could Shanshu, can't.
Although i always thought that after Angel signing the Shanshu away, a good plot idea would be to have Gunn sired and then Shanshu straight away, leaving both Angel and Spike screwed over
And if Angel really wanted to screw the contract up, he could just make Spike a member, then the only two that could Shanshu, can't.
Although i always thought that after Angel signing the Shanshu away, a good plot idea would be to have Gunn sired and then Shanshu straight away, leaving both Angel and Spike screwed over