So I Think I'm Done... (Spoilers)

[Willow-Tree]

The last issue I read was #35, and I don't know if I want to continue.

I'm happy that Spike is back, because Spike > Angel, but recent things I've read, such as Angel killing Giles, makes me fear for my enjoyment of the fandom.

And yes, I sincerely mean that. When I found out about Giles' death, and his murderer, I literally felt sick. And I have NEVER gotten to that point with Season 8, until that moment. I literally feel like it was a waste of time for me to even become so invested in the Buffyverse if this is what Joss has decided to do with it. Hey, if Season 8 turned out to be some sort of joke... okay. But maybe after 40 issues and some $$, it's not worth that.

Who the hell still likes this "season"? I can't for the life of me wrap my head around the point of the death, and the only plausible reasoning I have is for shock value. Well, writers, you shocked me... I never thought it would be this easy for me to possibly turn my back on the series.

So, that said, should I continue with #36... would reading the death, etc. help me better "understand" it (if that could even be possible at this point), or should I just give up the current season, altogether. I'm lost.

 

[VisionGirl]

For me, I would continue reading it, but I'm obsessive like that, I'd have to read the whole thing LOL! But a lot of people have given it up, so do whatever you want to with it. I do feel the best parts of the season are in the first half (really most of the stuff before Twilight, except for the Harmony arc, ick). I have been calling myself a season 8 fan, but I have disliked Angel's characterization and Giles' death of course so I'm not sure anymore. I probably won't be able to help myself in reading season 9.

 

[sosa lola]

Who the hell still likes this "season"?

Me? 🙂 I'm a huge fan of the season even though Giles' death kills me. I agree that I don't think they should have killed him, there's so much to do with Giles' character, a lot of unexplored issues and background. I'm personally against killing characters because I never think a character is finished.

I think since you've read this far, you should read the last five issues, I won't say youre gonna change your mind about the season, but at least you'll see for yourself how it ended. Don't rely on what you read on the net. You don't have to buy them, just borrow them from a friend or read them at the library, as long as it's you who reads them.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I think that if Joss had made season 8 on television, it would be MUCH much better. The problem I'm having with him and the comics, is that he gets too much freedom. On television the effects cost more, the actors can't always do everything, special props and demon make up and customs, the sets are limited, and so on. So he feels that in the comics he can go crazy and do whatever he feels like doing. He wants them to live in a big castle in Scotland, he wants an army of monsters to attack the castle... he does. Because he can. But it's getting really messy and way too much.

In my opinion, since the show started on television (I'm not including the movie from '92) and had certain stuff that made sense to do, he can't all of a sudden go that crazy and make it a frenzy fest. It's not Buffy anymore, he didn't keep it Buffy-like once he started to write the comics. Okay, he's trying to be creative. But stay in the same frame. People loved the series for a reason. You make such big differences, people wouldn't like it as much.

 

[VisionGirl]

CE, that's not a problem for me. I accept that these are comics, and it's different from TV/movies. I love the various different monsters for example, they could never have done that in a different medium (OK, I don't love the vagina demon LOL). I also don't mind too much that the story is more "global"- really that was set up in Chosen & I don't see a way out of that. Well, except destroy the source of magic in the world LOL.

What I don't like is what Joss & Scott Allie have done to Angel's character. Allie I can almost excuse, except he should've made it his job to watch ATS to better understand his character. For Joss, though, it's inexcusable. No, he didn't write or direct much of ATS, but he knew everything that went on in the series. Maybe he should've got some ATS writers to help out. Maybe they'll draw some IDW writers next year to help out. I don't know, but they've got big work to do to redeem his character in my eyes.

 

[Willow-Tree]

See, I've never liked Angel... even before Spike appeared Angel was always "meh" to me. I liked him more in his own show, yes, but still... I always preferred Cordelia, Wesley, Fred, Doyle, etc.

So the fact that he is what he is and he's done what he's done in S8 gives me SO much more justification for hating him as I do. 😀

 

[zobothehobo]

I still like season 8. I have had much fun reading it and I really don't mind Giles' death. At first I was a bit... taken back, then I got happy when I realized what this meant for Angel, now I'm just like whatever with it. I'm excited for issue 40 and season 9.

I feel bad though that the comics have left a negative impression on so many fans. I mean, they're different from the show and I got that right away. That's why it's so easy for me to not look at them as full on cannon. But I've thought they're an interesting story and I have basically no one to share that with.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I wonder if Joss and co knew what they were doing to Angel - the hatred at him by fans I mean. Did they intend to make the fans hate him, or is it just a side effect they didn't know was coming? OR, and that's a big 'or' they're planning something big for him. Joss likes to play with fans emotions, and he does it well. Maybe he has a secret plan. Because detroying a character like that, an important character.... it just doesn't make any sense, now that I think about it.

 

[zobothehobo]

What I don't like is what Joss & Scott Allie have done to Angel's character. Allie I can almost excuse, except he should've made it his job to watch ATS to better understand his character. For Joss, though, it's inexcusable. No, he didn't write or direct much of ATS, but he knew everything that went on in the series. Maybe he should've got some ATS writers to help out. Maybe they'll draw some IDW writers next year to help out. I don't know, but they've got big work to do to redeem his character in my eyes.

I've seen a couple people who agree with me in the was Angel out of character thread... but I honestly think they didn't ruin Angel's character and it kind of surprised me that Allie hadn't seen Ats because Angel was very much Angel from Ats to me. I mean he fell right into Twilight's hands. Did he not fall right into W&H's plans EVERY TIME they set something up for him?

And I'm biased because I don't like Angel. I don't like any part of Angel. Except maybe Angelus who is a thousand times more interesting and yes, I am including Angel from Ats as a comparison to Angelus with Angelus being more interesting. It makes sense I wouldn't like Angel. As a human, Liam was a jerk. As a vampire, Angelus was a murdering genius, and as a souled vampire, Angel was a whiny hypocritical jerk with evil in his heart who so desperately wanted it to not be there. But it was. And it will always come back to that. Angel fighting the evil in him. I don't know everything about the mythology of vampires in the verse... but from what I can tell, Angelus couldn't be that evil, Angel couldn't have that much evil in him if Liam didn't have something. Liam was a jerk and that allowed his vampire counterparts to have that much evil in them. So I feel absolutely no sympathy for the guy. It's not like watching Spike fight with the evil in him after being chipped. (Note: I'm not comparing them right here, I'm just offering an example of a story of a vampire fighting with the evil inside of him being interesting rather than just annoying). With Spike, the good wins because William wasn't a jerk. He was a good man. The evil is always going to win out in Angel's side. I think he knows that. THAT'S the meaning I gave to NFA. He knew that if he kept on the evil would win. So he took control and said I'm going to make sure it doesn't. It's like the end of Shutter Island. "Would you rather die a good man, or live as a monster?" NFA was essentially Angel making his choice to "pretend to have amnesia again" like Teddy from the movie. But Angel didn't stop it... he didn't die and stop the inevitable evil winning thing.

 

[InsaneMystic]

^ Zoe, I can't karma you again, but I wish I could... because I so agree with pretty much every word in your whole "I don't like *beep*" paragraph.

 

[Icarium]

Angel fighting the evil in him. I don't know everything about the mythology of vampires in the verse... but from what I can tell, Angelus couldn't be that evil, Angel couldn't have that much evil in him if Liam didn't have something. Liam was a jerk and that allowed his vampire counterparts to have that much evil in them.

You are right. You really don't know the show's mythos. All unsouled vampires are evil. The idea that Angel is so much worse than Spike because he is more artistic while Spike is "merely" a serial murderer is wrong on so many levels.

With Spike, the good wins because William wasn't a jerk. He was a good man.

I seem to recall he needed a magic intervention to "win" this fight...just like Angel.

I wonder if Joss and co knew what they were doing to Angel - the hatred at him by fans I mean. Did they intend to make the fans hate him, or is it just a side effect they didn't know was coming?

We are talking of Joss "Redemption" Whedon, right? Has he ever gone far enough with a major character so that he or she is considered irredeemable in canon? Willow tried to destroy the world, Connor and Faith were the major minions of their respective Big Bads and they came back into the fold. Me thinks Joss thought people were going to accept Angel's umpteenth slide into darkness too.

 

[citiegal17]

We are talking of Joss "Redemption" Whedon, right? Has he ever gone far enough with a major character so that he or she is considered irredeemable in canon? Willow tried to destroy the world, Connor and Faith were the major minions of their respective Big Bads and they came back into the fold. Me thinks Joss thought people were going to accept Angel's umpteenth slide into darkness too.

Faith earned her redemption she has evolved into a better person, one example is with Gigi in NFFY, she tried to save Gigi. Connor was forced into being the person Angel thought he should have been,Angle raped his mind, and his friends mind, and this brought on the W&H diaster which basically destroyed AI, Connor didn't redeem himself, he was forced into being someone else, that Connor was basically brain washed Connor 2.0, Connor never paid for his victims when he played Jasmine's bitch, maybe losing himself counts as a consequence, but not true redemption. Willow changed she helped save the slayer line till it was destroyed in season 8, she knows she has to answer for her crimes, she lives with the guilt like Faith and tries to help. Angel was basically playing Wesley's part in season 3, except Wesley didn't murder anyone, Angel has a long body count, maybe Angel will redeem himself but he has to earn it, and has to do something other than brooding and feeling sorry for himself. He should give up his big picture attitude, or else its a waste of time and he will still go on and murder people anyway, his soul isn't good enough to stop him from being a danger to humanity. Jasmine was basically spouting the same arguments he used in season 5&8, the only way he can truly change and redeem himself is to value every human life, and stop murdering people which he should have done when he got his soul.

 

[cordangel]

Zoe, you're right: You really don't understand the mithology of the vampires, but try to remember that:
-Angelus was the worst vampire ever recorded, but the number two was Spike
-Spike in s2 and s3 was much more dangerous and evil than in s4. The writers partially changed him because he had to become an outsider Scooby Gang
-Liam was a layabouts and a womanizer, not a killer . He wasn't in any way malicious
-Both Liam and William,once vampires, made horrible things
-Both Angel and Spike have a demon inside and both of them have to battle against their vampiric nature. The difference is that Angel is full aware of it, while Spike has a sort of negationist attitude ( "Then I didn't have a soul, remember?" -Damage,s5 AtS).


I'm done with s8. The things they have done to Angel are unforgiveable for me.
I am too invested in AtS and in its titular character and I don't want him to be destroyed so easily.

 

[Willow-Tree]

We are talking of Joss "Redemption" Whedon, right? Has he ever gone far enough with a major character so that he or she is considered irredeemable in canon? Willow tried to destroy the world, Connor and Faith were the major minions of their respective Big Bads and they came back into the fold. Me thinks Joss thought people were going to accept Angel's umpteenth slide into darkness too.

Faith earned her redemption she has evolved into a better person, one example is with Gigi in NFFY, she tried to save Gigi. Connor was forced into being the person Angel thought he should have been,Angle raped his mind, and his friends mind, and this brought on the W&H diaster which basically destroyed AI, Connor didn't redeem himself, he was forced into being someone else, that Connor was basically brain washed Connor 2.0, Connor never paid for his victims when he played Jasmine's bitch, maybe losing himself counts as a consequence, but not true redemption. Willow changed she helped save the slayer line till it was destroyed in season 8, she knows she has to answer for her crimes, she lives with the guilt like Faith and tries to help. Angel was basically playing Wesley's part in season 3, except Wesley didn't murder anyone, Angel has a long body count, maybe Angel will redeem himself but he has to earn it, and has to do something other than brooding and feeling sorry for himself. He should give up his big picture attitude, or else its a waste of time and he will still go on and murder people anyway, his soul isn't good enough to stop him from being a danger to humanity. Jasmine was basically spouting the same arguments he used in season 5&8, the only way he can truly change and redeem himself is to value every human life, and stop murdering people which he should have done when he got his soul.

But the difference between all those characters and Angel is that Angel has already forayed into the dark side on several occasions... Willow, Faith, and Connor only dipped into it once and never went back.

 

[LadyLavinia]

But the difference between all those characters and Angel is that Angel has already forayed into the dark side on several occasions... Willow, Faith, and Connor only dipped into it once and never went back.

The problem I have with Angel is that even as a souled vampire, he is always a screw up (except with his dealings with Faith in late Season 1 of his series). Really. He reminds me of a control freak, who always overreacts when matters do not go his way. And when he does overreact, disaster happens.

 

[zobothehobo]

Zoe, you're right: You really don't understand the mithology of the vampires, but try to remember that:
-Angelus was the worst vampire ever recorded, but the number two was Spike
-Spike in s2 and s3 was much more dangerous and evil than in s4. The writers partially changed him because he had to become an outsider Scooby Gang
-Liam was a layabouts and a womanizer, not a killer . He wasn't in any way malicious
-Both Liam and William,once vampires, made horrible things
-Both Angel and Spike have a demon inside and both of them have to battle against their vampiric nature. The difference is that Angel is full aware of it, while Spike has a sort of negationist attitude ( "Then I didn't have a soul, remember?" -Damage,s5 AtS).

1. I didn't say I don't understand it, I said I don't know a lot about it. so please, explain.
2. I know.
3. Call me crazy, and several people have... but even in my first watch of season 2, I thought Spike was a really weak bad guy compared to Angelus. I couldn't (and still can't) believe Spike is/was the second worst vampire in recorded history. I mean seriously... It just felt like there was a HUGE gap inbetween the first and the second. ESPECIALLY since the second worst vampire in history helped SAVE the world in season 2. I just really don't feel Spike was ever written all that evil.
3. I didn't say he was a killer, I said he was a jerk. Womanizers are jerks in my opinion. I never said he killed anyone because I know he didn't. But he was a jerk. And from what we saw of him, he didn't really seem to have other people's interests at heart at all. He was selfish and rude and a womanizer.
4. Again, I know and I never said that when turned they both didn't do horrible things. I know they did. I'm not comparing the two saying Spike is better. I only brought Spike into this to show an example of a vampire fighting with the evil in him being interesting rather than just annoying. It annoyed me to watch Angel fight with his evil and always loose. It made me excited to watch Spike fight with his and win. That was the ONLY point I was trying to make in mentioning Spike in my post. I feel like you missed that.
5. I'm not sure that's the difference. If anything, I think Angel's much more likely to say whatever he did as Angelus wasn't him. I mean the point is made very clear to Angel's character that Angelus and Angel are two different people (although to me they're not). He says it many many times. Spike never refers to himself in his soulless state as being a completely literally different person. He says he's changed. And he has. This is where I SO wish we got to see more Spike development in Angel season 5 because we could really see Spike as a champion and soulled vampire side by side with Angel. But I think something touched on by Buffy in season 7 was that Spike needed to embrace his vampire side now that he had a soul and having a soul doesn't mean he can't embrace the vampire... And I think he pretty much got it in Get It Done. Yes, Spike did say "I didn't have a soul then, remember" but how many times did Angel say it? There's that pesky double standard again.

Just to reiterate though, I do not want to make this a comparison between Spike and Angel or a "who's better" fight. I brought up Spike to show I don't dislike the concept of Angel's story, I dislike Angel's story.

---------- Post added at 06:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:29 AM ----------

Kana agrees: I've written plenty of mini essays on Angel(us) and the mythology of vampires. They're not perfect but it's more complicated than Liam is a jerk so therefore Angelus is a jerk...

I know that. But it does have some play. I know that's not all of it... like I said, I don't know a lot about the mythology of vampires. But it does have some play and I have a hard time feeling sympathy for him because I know that it does have some weight in the matter.

 

[Anya2012]

I think it was purely for shock value. I want to quit also but I'm afraid if I do, I'll miss something important. Damn, Buffy has a hold over me. I was going to quit when Dander happened.

 

[white avenger]

Who the hell still likes this "season"? I can't for the life of me wrap my head around the point of the death, and the only plausible reasoning I have is for shock value. Well, writers, you shocked me... I never thought it would be this easy for me to possibly turn my back on the series.

So, that said, should I continue with #36... would reading the death, etc. help me better "understand" it (if that could even be possible at this point), or should I just give up the current season, altogether. I'm lost.

My advice would be to not give up on the Season now that you've come this far with it. What happens in the final arc is pretty much common knowledge by now, anyhow, so just not reading it won't change that, and, besides, it's almost a certainty that Joss will bail Angel out either in the final issue or during Season 9, so you really don't want to miss that. Bringing Giles back may present more of a problem, since there's no magic left in the Buffyverse, but I'm pretty sure that it's a challenge that Joss will rise to.

I've had some problems with Season 8, primarily the time delay between issues and the limited amount of material per issue, but the actual story itself has been pretty good. I was neither shocked nor surprised that Angel turned out to be the man behind the mask, since from almost the first, I had considered Angelus to be the Big Bad. As for Giles' death, while I really didn't want it to happen, it was pretty much the logical choice if one of the original cast members had to die, considering the rather limited use that his character has gotten this season. But, as I said above, the mere fact that he's dead doesn't mean that he's gone forever. Like Wesley in "The Princess Bride," Giles is almost certainly only "mostly dead," and the right technique will have him as good as new in no time.

So, hang on for just the few issues left in the season. Things will straighten themselves out just fine. And, I promise, you won't want to miss what Joss has planned for Season 9.

 

[cordangel]

ESPECIALLY since the second worst vampire in history helped SAVE the world in season 2.

The second worst vampire helped save the world only for a selfish reason: he didn't want to lose Drusilla. Remember that he found and rebuilt the Juice, not Angelus ( Drusilla to Angelus: "WE ARE going to destroy the world. Want to come?" - Surprise, BtVS s2) and remember what Buffy said to him: " The whole world may be sucked into Hell and you want my help 'cause your girlfriend is a big ho? You're pathetic."



If anything, I think Angel's much more likely to say whatever he did as Angelus wasn't him.

Are you sure? Because the distinction was made by others. Angel never said that. He always took responsability for what his vampiric self had done. He never said "Then I didn't have a soul". Otherwise what would be the point in "Damage" and Spike being agree with him (Angel:"It's something I'm still paying for" Spike:"And you should let it go, mate. It's starting to make you look old." Later,when his hands were cut off: " I'm not saying you're right, because I' m phyisically incapable of saying that: But..."


And, I don't want to make a comparisons between the two vampires. We are agree. My note is only to clarify.

 

[zobothehobo]

ESPECIALLY since the second worst vampire in history helped SAVE the world in season 2.

The second worst vampire helped save the world only for a selfish reason: he didn't want to lose Drusilla. Remember that he found and rebuilt the Juice, not Angelus ( Drusilla to Angelus: "WE ARE going to destroy the world. Want to come?" - Surprise, BtVS s2) and remember what Buffy said to him: " The whole world may be sucked into Hell and you want my help 'cause your girlfriend is a big ho? You're pathetic."

"We like to talk big. (indicates himself) Vampires do. 'I'm going to destroy the world.' (looks at the officer) That's just tough guy talk. (steps over to the car) Strutting around with your friends over a pint of blood. (sits on the hood) The truth is, I like this world. (pulls the cigarette pack from the officer's shirt pocket) You've got... dog racing, Manchester United. (pulls one out and drops the pack on the officer) And you've got people. (exhales) Billions of people walking around like Happy Meals with legs. It's all right here. (lights the cigarette and takes a drag) But then someone comes along with a vision. With a real... (exhales) passion for destruction. (takes another drag and looks at Buffy) Angel could pull it off. Goodbye, Picadilly. Farewell, Leicester Bloody Square. You know what I'm saying?"
Not to mention does it really matter if he did it for selfish reasons or not? I mean fact of the matter is the "second worse vampire in recorded history" STILL helped save the world.

Again, I don't want to do a Spike vs. Angel thing here... but I just HATE it it when people try to cheapen Spike in Becoming Part 2 and take away from the fact Buffy couldn't have done it without him.

If anything, I think Angel's much more likely to say whatever he did as Angelus wasn't him.

Are you sure? Because the distinction was made by others. Angel never said that. He always took responsability for what his vampiric self had done. He never said "Then I didn't have a soul". Otherwise what would be the point in "Damage" and Spike being agree with him (Angel:"It's something I'm still paying for" Spike:"And you should let it go, mate. It's starting to make you look old." Later,when his hands were cut off: " I'm not saying you're right, because I' m phyisically incapable of saying that: But..."

Yes I'm sure. Sometimes yes, Angel took responsibility for his actions.. but I can't overlook the whole thing with The Beast and Angel not remembering him because he's not Angelus (which was just the bad writing and planning of season 4, I'm sure... but still). There's so much effort for the first parts of Ats all the way up to season 5 where Angel makes strong distinctions between himself and Angelus. Doesn't he actually say to someone (I don't remember who) one of the times he comes back (not sure which one) "remember, that wasn't me." Oh and when he's about to get his soul taken away in Ats season 4 he makes this big huge point to tell Connor "I am your dad, not Angelus."

And, I don't want to make a comparisons between the two vampires. We are agree. My note is only to clarify.

oh good. we're agreed there...