So if "Joyce" in Conversations was The First

[Joshua]

So if it wasn't "Joyce" talking to Dawn in Conversations with Dead People, and it was The First screwing with Dawn's head what was the need of the other demon that Dawn killed?

 

[Zeppelin92]

I never understood that either. The First was unable to do any physical harm and yet this demon appears and wrecks the house and it was never explained. The First wasn't able to effect radios and things and yet we hear Joyce's voice coming through the radio. Was the demon put there to help The First get into Dawn's head? Or was there some kind of inner struggle between The First and Joyce's actual spirit? Its hard to tell.

 

[Lyri]

I just assumed that it was a trick to get Dawn to believe that it really was Joyce. If Joyce just showed up and spoke to Dawn, like it was an every day thing, Dawn knows enough to know that there's something not right, especially if Willow comes back the next day and tells her that SHE saw a dead person, too. So, if the First appeared to Dawn in a way that was different, involving her mother's spirit apparently being hurt, then Dawn was more likely to buy that, and she still held onto that message 'Joyce' told her.

 

[Zeppelin92]

If The First had that kind of power though why not attack the potentials itself? It was the only time we saw The First able to manipulate the physical world ever (Breaking Glass, Turning on the TV, Talking through the radio.). I do think the actual figure of Joyce talking to Dawn was The First based on what it was saying, but there's a lot about that scene that doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Anya2012]

That was never very clear. I just assumed it was The First playing mind games on Dawn.

 

[Vamp Jenny]

I never completely understood that scene. I want to believe it was Joyce, but the things "it" said made it look like it was the First...

Recently I thought it might have been about the episode where Dawn thinks she's a Potential, but I'm not sure... I mean, we all know if Dawn had been a potential Buffy wouldn't have been happy about it.
But at the same time, Buffy never to choose (which was the word used by "Joyce") between Dawn and someone else.

Same goes for the rest of the season.

Except................ Maybe "it" meant about the final fight? Just popped into my head, but Buffy asked Xander to get Dawn as far as possible from Sunnydale before the fight, so both of them wouldn't have to be there. Maybe "it" meant that Buffy wouldn't choose Dawn to fight by her side...?

You see how much I DON'T want it to be the First XD

 

[Black Eye Guy]

It was definitely the first, I think it was Espensen that confirmed that already in a commentary or interview.

The "demon" was never explained, and how the appliances turned on, but it could have been a real demon, working for the First to make it all seem more believable?

 

[Zeppelin92]

Yah that's what I was thinking ^. Also curiously, The First only seemed to target big players; (Willow, Spike, Buffy, Faith and Robin.). Dawn on the other hand was just a teenage girl at this point. What purpose would it serve to hurt Dawn or even separate her from Buffy?

 

[slayer6]

So if it wasn't "Joyce" talking to Dawn in Conversations with Dead People, and it was The First screwing with Dawn's head what was the need of the other demon that Dawn killed?

The need for the other demon was to get Dawn to believe it was really Joyce. It made it more convincing in Dawn's mind. The First was around a very long time and it was smart definitely smart enough to play mind tricks.

---------- Post added at 12:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 PM ----------

If The First had that kind of power though why not attack the potentials itself? It was the only time we saw The First able to manipulate the physical world ever (Breaking Glass, Turning on the TV, Talking through the radio.). I do think the actual figure of Joyce talking to Dawn was The First based on what it was saying, but there's a lot about that scene that doesn't make sense to me.

The first had a lot of other creatures working for it so who is to say that the first didn't have that demon working for it and command the demon to go along with the trick?

---------- Post added at 12:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 PM ----------

Yah that's what I was thinking ^. Also curiously, The First only seemed to target big players; (Willow, Spike, Buffy, Faith and Robin.). Dawn on the other hand was just a teenage girl at this point. What purpose would it serve to hurt Dawn or even separate her from Buffy?

To hurt Dawn would hurt Buffy.

 

[Cordynharm]

Yah that's what I was thinking ^. Also curiously, The First only seemed to target big players; (Willow, Spike, Buffy, Faith and Robin.). Dawn on the other hand was just a teenage girl at this point. What purpose would it serve to hurt Dawn or even separate her from Buffy?

It put seeds of doubt in Dawns mind which culminated in her being the one to actually stand face to face with her sister and tell her she needs to leave in EMPTY PLACES. So it's actually the Firsts' most effective visit that night since it divided Buffy from everyone except Spike.

 

[white avenger]

I always thought that the First had some sort of minion create all the disruption and destruction,but that Joyce was sent by a different Power altogether (The First Good? If there was a First Evil, it only stands to reason that there would be an opposite, opposing force).

Course, as someone here takes great pleasure in pointing out, I tend to fill in and/or come up with my own explanations for a lot of gaps in Joss' story lines.

 

[Blaze]

Maybe I'm just going crazy, but I could have sworn I heard/read somewhere that whatever Joyce was, it wasn't the First. I mean, the whole scene just doesn't fit with what the First is, and how it works. I'm also not sure if the First could have been in two places at once, and it's the only time throughout the series that it appears like Joyce did (with the demon and the light etc).

I don't know, I guess I'm just not convince that this was the First. I'm leaning more towards a demon, or a piece of Joyce trying to actually communicate with Dawn. But as seen in s6x03, escaping death (possibly even in the eventualities that you are still dead?) can result in releasing demons/entities from another dimension.

I guess I'm completely wrong if it was confirmed that it was the First, but I just don't really buy it. That scene was weird.

 

[Lyri]

But if it wasn't The First then 'Joyce's' 'message' makes no sense.

"Buffy won't choose you. She'll be against you."

There is not a single instance where Buffy has ever not put Dawn first. The only way the scene makes sense (to me) is if it's some malevolent force trying to split Buffy from the people she loves, and the only force there was in S7 was The First.

 

[Still a Scoobie]

The way I see it (with no canonical back-up, I'm sure) is that the physical disturbances were caused by Joyce's spirit rebelling against the first taking her form.

 

[Blaze]

But if it wasn't The First then 'Joyce's' 'message' makes no sense.

"Buffy won't choose you. She'll be against you."

There is not a single instance where Buffy has ever not put Dawn first. The only way the scene makes sense (to me) is if it's some malevolent force trying to split Buffy from the people she loves, and the only force there was in S7 was The First.

Yes, I'll admit this makes no sense, but I always interpreted that line as Buffy saying that if she had to start over, she'd be ready to sacrifice Dawn. Not the most concrete thing, but it's all I can think of. Again, I'm probably wrong, I just think that The First also doesn't fit the bill very well.

---------- Post added at 07:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:41 PM ----------

The way I see it (with no canonical back-up, I'm sure) is that the physical disturbances were caused by Joyce's spirit rebelling against the first taking her form.

This would be an interesting idea that could have been explored on the show. I like the idea of Joyce trying to rebel against the First and protect her kids. The only problem is that the entity hurt Dawn pretty badly, so I don't think it was Joyce.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I think a case could be made for "Joyce's" message about Buffy not choosing Dawn and being against her, could be interpreted as not choosing Dawn to be part of her army.


But it was definitely The first, Espensen confirms it in the episode commentary. It stands that the First would want to destabilise the only family connection Buffy has.

 

[Lyri]

I think a case could be made for "Joyce's" message about Buffy not choosing Dawn and being against her, could be interpreted as not choosing Dawn to be part of her army.

But if that was the case, then wouldn't Joyce want to protect Dawn as much as possible? I can't see the real Joyce being okay with her very human, powerless (at the time) daughter going into battle. So it wouldn't so much be a warning and no reason to tell Dawn at all.

Plus, although Buffy tried to protect her and initially sent her away with Xander, Dawn was part of Buffy's army and fought in the school.

I also heard someone argue once that this had something to do with Dawn's 'Potential' status, or lack there of. Something about how they 'chose' to believe it was Amanda the spell found when it was really Dawn all along, but because Buffy (the 'real' Slayer) believed it was Amanda, Dawn's powers never manifested. Buffy literally didn't 'choose' Dawn.

I don't buy that, but whatever, lol.

 

[Blaze]

My question, could the First have been in two places at once? Since it's been confirmed by writers that it was the First, did they mess up their own mythology or was that something that was shown in other instances with the First (my memory is failing me, not sure if we have proof or not as whether this was possible).

 

[Lyri]

Was it ever confirmed that The First COULDN'T be in two places at once? I don't remember that being a thing, or something that was specifically pointed out.

There was also the idea that 'Darla's' visitation to Connor in AtS S4, right before he kills the girl on Jasmine's orders, was actually The First, trying to prevent Jasmine's plans for world peace because it contradicted The First's plans of corrupting everyone. It's never been confirmed or denied (though I don't believe it was The First) if it was true, it would mean that The First would be in LA and Sunnydale at the same time. The time frame would make it just a day or two prior to Angel turning up in Sunnydale.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

The First mentions something about being everywhere so I don't think it's beyond a possibility it could be in more then one place.

Is CWDP the episode that's time stamped at the start of the ep? Could it have been an agent if the first that starts off with Dawn, whatever attacked her, and once the first was done with Willow it went to Dawn, while Willow was traveling from UC Sunnydale to the house?

I can't remember now but wasn't The First talking to Spike in its cave and being Eve in the house at the same time?