So maybe Spike isn't the unique one...

[Kenimowy]

I have heard so many times that Spike is an unusual vampire because of his capacity to love (or something like it) or his abundance of emotion in general. But in the episode of Amends, we hear Angel's ghosts tell him that he is different from other beasts because of his purely evil mentality.
Sure....all vampires kill without remorse but Angel has been showcased to have fun while doing it. He goes above and beyond to not only kill but to torment his victims whereas most of them just drain em and go.
So from this it would seem that Spike is not that special in terms of being a unique vampire, but Angel is the unique one due to his total unfiltered evilness. Or is it that they are both special but on opposite sides of the spectrum?
Is this something anyone else has picked up on? Am I just late on catching this?? What is it about Angel that makes him so much more evil than the average vamp?

 

[The Bronze]

All vampires are unique in much the same way that all humans are unique. There's nothing special about either of them though. They just fit into different places on the vampire spectrum. Angel was at the extreme end of enjoying the torturous human kills. Spike could come across as closer to human emotion with his love of Dru and ability to form bonds with the likes of Joyce. Neither of them broke a mould though. They'll be a smartest vampire somewhere, a strongest, most humanity, least humanity etc. but they all fit somewhere on the spectrum.

 

[Blaze]

I agree with @The Bronze, just two sides of the same spectrum. We've seen other vamps on the same end as Spike, and other's are more like Angel.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

In "Surprise 2x13", the Judge thought Spike and Dru were contaminated by their love for each other:

Judge: You two stink of humanity. You share affection and jealousy.

and he thought Dalton was too bookish:

Judge: This one is full of feeling. He reads. Bring him to me...

The Judge steps over to Dalton.

Dalton: No. No! NO!

The Judge puts his hand on Dalton's chest, and he begins to smoke.
Drusilla watches excitedly. The Judge's hand begins to burn into Dalton,
who quickly combusts, disappearing in a flash of flame and smoke.

Vampires appear to retain some of their human hosts' characteristics. The variation in vampire personalities is similar to the variation in the people they were sired from. In "Innocence 2x14", Angel had turned to Angelus and meets the Judge:

Judge: This one... cannot be burnt. He is clean. (removes his hand)

Spike: Clean? You mean, he's...

Judge: There's no humanity in him. (turns and goes)

Angelus: (faces Spike) I couldn't have said it better myself.

It looks like Angelus is as close to primordial evil as a vampire can get. He explains to Spike and Dru later:

Angelus: Spike, (slams his hand on a crate) my boy, (pushes it along
the rollers) you *really* don't get it! (stands up) Do you? (chuckles)
You tried to kill her, but you couldn't. (chuckles) Look at you. You're
a wreck! (approaches him) She's stronger than any Slayer you've ever
faced. (hops off of the platform) Force won't get it done. You gotta
work from the inside. (sits on the platform) To kill this girl... you
have to love her.

 

[DawnNotSummers]

In "Surprise 2x13", the Judge thought Spike and Dru were contaminated by their love for each other:

Judge: You two stink of humanity. You share affection and jealousy.

I was working on a video last night and ended up watching quite a bit of Crush and that quote reminded me of this one:

BUFFY: It's called revulsion. And whatever you think you're feeling, it's not love. You can't love without a soul.
DRUSILLA: Oh, we can, you know. We can love quite well. If not wisely.

I also agree about vampires being as unique as humans are. They are different demons that (I believe) retain characteristics of their hosts--for instance, Spike seemed to feel love very deeply, judging from the glimpses of him with Cecily, and that certainly carried over to his relationships with Dru and Buffy. Same with Dru--she obviously loved her family very much from what we saw in flashbacks, and just because she went mad doesn't mean that went away. But then think about Liam--what did we see of him as a human? A drunkard womanizer who had no sense of responsibility but only wanted to have fun on anothers' dime. I think this carried over into Angelus's love of pain as an art form and his fondness for dragging things out to achieve the maximum pleasure for himself.

For me, the real question has always been this: why did Angel being given back his soul change him so completely from the Liam we were introduced to in flashbacks in Becoming? Was it simply a matter of age breeding wisdom, the guilt he felt for his actions instantly maturing him or a combination of both? I lean towards the latter, but it's definitely an interesting subject to think about.

 

[gite63]

I also agree about vampires being as unique as humans are.

for instance, Spike seemed to feel love very deeply

I think this carried over into Angelus's love of pain as an art form and his fondness for dragging things out to achieve the maximum pleasure for himself.

Yeah, maybe is what happens - William/Spike: full of love, Liam/Angelus: seeker of pleasures.

 

[Kenimowy]

Yeah, maybe is what happens - William/Spike: full of love, Liam/Angelus: seeker of pleasures.

I never thought about it like that but it makes so much sense.

I was working on a video last night and ended up watching quite a bit of Crush and that quote reminded me of this one:

BUFFY: It's called revulsion. And whatever you think you're feeling, it's not love. You can't love without a soul.
DRUSILLA: Oh, we can, you know. We can love quite well. If not wisely.

I also agree about vampires being as unique as humans are. They are different demons that (I believe) retain characteristics of their hosts--for instance, Spike seemed to feel love very deeply, judging from the glimpses of him with Cecily, and that certainly carried over to his relationships with Dru and Buffy. Same with Dru--she obviously loved her family very much from what we saw in flashbacks, and just because she went mad doesn't mean that went away. But then think about Liam--what did we see of him as a human? A drunkard womanizer who had no sense of responsibility but only wanted to have fun on anothers' dime. I think this carried over into Angelus's love of pain as an art form and his fondness for dragging things out to achieve the maximum pleasure for himself.

For me, the real question has always been this: why did Angel being given back his soul change him so completely from the Liam we were introduced to in flashbacks in Becoming? Was it simply a matter of age breeding wisdom, the guilt he felt for his actions instantly maturing him or a combination of both? I lean towards the latter, but it's definitely an interesting subject to think about.

This makes so much sense. I never really connected the thrill seeker personality Liam had as carrying over into his demonic side but it works perfectly just as spikes blind overly passionate love with Cecily can connect to his relationships with Dru and Buffy as well.

It also kinda explains why vampires like spike and Dru and the other vampire guy had humanity in them as the judge detected, because they had passion for each other or worldly things. Angel only had passion for self pleasure, both in his original life and afterlife, which explains why he is a bit worse than they average vamp.
 

For me, the real question has always been this: why did Angel being given back his soul change him so completely from the Liam we were introduced to in flashbacks in Becoming? Was it simply a matter of age breeding wisdom, the guilt he felt for his actions instantly maturing him or a combination of both? I lean towards the latter, but it's definitely an interesting subject to think about.

I agree I think it is a combination of both. Liam was a lousy guy in life and only cared about number one but he still had a conscious however buried under the surface it might have been, which I think is what allows him to grow up rather quickly when he is given back his soul. This combined with age and wisdom explains his total personality change.

I mean, there's a lot of young adults that are pretty awful in their youth but eventually become genuinely good people as they mature. So I think it's safe to assume that in angel's case, he more or less grew up.

 

[sosa lola]

I've always thought so. And I've always referenced that scene with the Judge. Angelus is the unusual one, not Spike. I personally love that more. I don't like the idea of Spike being a special vampire. I think it's far more admirable that he achieved that high level of morality and humanity because of his love for Buffy and strong will and not because he was a "gifted special vampire." That takes away from all his accomplishments.

 

[The Bronze]

So that scene with The Judge clearly sets Angelus apart from Spike, Drusilla and Dalton. I have a question about it though. Do you think it highlights a permanent difference?

I have a theory that after being trapped by a soul for so long Angelus returns a little crazy and without any humanity. Looking at the words used by The Judge I think Angelus would have burnt if they had met at another point in time:

Judge: You two stink of humanity. You share affection and jealousy.

Angelus and Darla shared affection and jealousy while they were together. See how Angelus acts when discussing The Immortal.

Judge: This one is full of feeling. He reads. Bring him to me...

We know Angelus was moved to tears by the ballet.

 

[Kenimowy]

So that scene with The Judge clearly sets Angelus apart from Spike, Drusilla and Dalton. I have a question about it though. Do you think it highlights a permanent difference?

I have a theory that after being trapped by a soul for so long Angelus returns a little crazy and without any humanity. Looking at the words used by The Judge I think Angelus would have burnt if they had met at another point in time:

Angelus and Darla shared affection and jealousy while they were together. See how Angelus acts when discussing The Immortal.

We know Angelus was moved to tears by the ballet.

That is a really good theory. It definitely makes some sense!

 

[RomanticSoul]

I think it's far more admirable that he achieved that high level of morality and humanity because of his love for Buffy and strong will and not because he was a "gifted special vampire." That takes away from all his accomplishments.

Except for the part where per the mythology he literally lacks the metaphysical tools to achieve this. Morality and humanity as we know it is impossible without a soul.

 

[Ember]

This is another issue I've developed in the BtVS verse... Lack of clarification on the demon/human rules.

When Buffy first starts out we are informed that all demons are evil.

This then gets contradicted as time goes on.

How can they love and have humanity without a soul?

And if Angel was as righteous as he claims to be, he'd just stake himself and remove the threat of Angelus from the world.

Plus if he hated Angelus so much, why keep the name? And the demon missus haha.

 

[EVIL UU]

And if Angel was as righteous as he claims to be, he'd just stake himself and remove the threat of Angelus from the world.

Or remain a human in "I Will Remember You".

 

[Atsfan1]

This is another issue I've developed in the BtVS verse... Lack of clarification on the demon/human rules.

When Buffy first starts out we are informed that all demons are evil.

This then gets contradicted as time goes on.

How can they love and have humanity without a soul?

And if Angel was as righteous as he claims to be, he'd just stake himself and remove the threat of Angelus from the world.

Plus if he hated Angelus so much, why keep the name? And the demon missus haha.

He didn't keep the name. He altered it to it's natural speaking term, more than anything likely because of his disliking of Angelus.

Angel never claimed to be righteous. He actually asked Darla to kill him. But at the time he didn't believe Angelus was still a threat in that sense. For a long time he didn't understand the difference between the two.

I wouldn't say it gets contradicted. I think vampires are developed more. But vampires are evil. They don't truly love. They love obsessively or selfishly, or not at all. Darla and Angelus were more or less selfish, if even at all on Angelus' side at certain times. Drusilla and Spike were more obsessive, from Spike's end at least. Drusilla seemed to have more of a selfish attachment.

Spike I think was unique in the way he felt his emotions and how reacted to them. James can present an interesting parallel to Spike, in that with James he decided to die for obsessive love and revenge and while Spike could and would have died for revenge, I don't think he would have killed himself for his obsessive love. Spike could, even before the chip could have a bond with people, Joyce as an example. I think we saw a hint of that with Harmony, but even still she couldn't hold permanent affection or caring. We see that with her reaction to Cordelia being in a coma. When she finds that out that she's sad for a few seconds and then she isn't. With Fred, she's sad for an episode kinda, but that doesn't effect her really afterwards. When Buffy died, Spike kept that. And when Joyce died, even though we don't see his reaction to it, it does seem to effect him longer than a day.

God bless you! God bless everyone in your life!